Grace

[Miriam]

What is your definition of grace? In your definition, is it a good thing or a bad thing? I'm not asking for the Christian definition you've been given, I'd really like to hear your own thoughts.

 

Thank you  

[TruthSeeker0]

That's a loaded word because it has religious connotations therefore I don't even use it. I believe in forgiving people where it's deserved and being kind to people in general. 

[disillusioned]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grace

 

I'm not trying to be an ass, but words have actual meanings. My thoughts on what "grace" means aren't really that relevant,  unless we're talking about what God's Grace might look like,  but you said you weren't interested in the Christian definition, so...

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

If you're not looking for a religious definition, then I would agree with this definition from Google:  "simple elegance or refinement of movement"

[TheRedneckProfessor]

This is what the true son of god had to say about grace:

 

 

 

[midniterider]

On 12/26/2018 at 7:41 PM, Miriam said:

What is your definition of grace? In your definition, is it a good thing or a bad thing? I'm not asking for the Christian definition you've been given, I'd really like to hear your own thoughts.

 

Thank you  

 

I dont believe we used the word much while I was being raised by non-believer type parents, so I didnt use it much as an adult ... except maybe as a teasing word when someone fell down...

 

Then I learned the Christian definition that you already know. I never really used the word very much before, during or after being a Christian. But even as a Christian I didnt dwell much on being a sinner who needed grace ...

 

In my definition it is neither a good thing nor bad thing because I rarely use the word. We probably used  other words like 'love' when I was growing up. Parents love their kids even when it is unmerited or unwarranted and they rarely ever stop loving their children. Nor feel their kids ought to suffer in eternal damnation (unless they are psychotic parents).

 

The grace of Jesus appears to be limited and conditional. Jesus gives unmerited favor only until death, if you love him. Otherwise, the grace period ends but then Jesus goes one step further and sends you to the lake of fire. That step is unnecessary. The unmerited favor (grace) part is fine, but the draconian punishment for not 'loving' someone is evil. 

 

Human love (or grace) seems much more advanced than the biblical concept of grace. A 'supreme' being ought to have a concept of love/grace even more advanced than human love (or grace), imo.

 

If I was created in the image and likeness of the biblical God then why am I unable to understand or be on board with his policies and procedures?

 

[Geezer]

Grace is a word that applies almost exclusively in the religious realm, much like the word sin. These words do not resonate in the secular realm because they are not applicable to secular thinking. 

[Miriam]

How about "gracious"? I'm just curious because a member here said "Of course you like grace, you're a Christian" and I was wondering why grace, and being gracious, is a bad thing, let alone something that should be confined to religion? Isn't being gracious something good, even in secular society?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

16 minutes ago, Miriam said:

How about "gracious"? I'm just curious because a member here said "Of course you like grace, you're a Christian" and I was wondering why grace, and being gracious, is a bad thing, let alone something that should be confined to religion? Isn't being gracious something good, even in secular society?

Good lord.   Do you always misrepresent people's positions?  Read more into them than what is actually said?  Super-impose other ideas that are not even being discussed?  Is that what "just curious" means to you?

 

"Of course you like grace; you're a christian."  What part of that references "gracious"?  What part implies that grace and/or graciousness is a bad thing?  Which part confines grace to religion?  Just because the quote correlates liking grace to being a christian?  But christianity isn't a religion; it's a relationship.  Innit?

 

Why don't you just admit that you are NOT just curious.  You are NOT just here open to hearing answers.  And, although you are admittedly more cordial about it than others, you ARE here to peddle (argue) your beliefs.

[Miriam]

50 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Good lord.   Do you always misrepresent people's positions?  Read more into them than what is actually said?  Super-impose other ideas that are not even being discussed?  Is that what "just curious" means to you?

 

"Of course you like grace; you're a christian."  What part of that references "gracious"?  What part implies that grace and/or graciousness is a bad thing?  Which part confines grace to religion?  Just because the quote correlates liking grace to being a christian?  But christianity isn't a religion; it's a relationship.  Innit?

 

Why don't you just admit that you are NOT just curious.  You are NOT just here open to hearing answers.  And, although you are admittedly more cordial about it than others, you ARE here to peddle (argue) your beliefs. 

 

No, I am here to try and learn about what you believe. RedNeck, everyone else who has responded in this thread has given excellent answers.  If having grace does not mean being gracious, then you are interpreting the English language in a way that is affected by your views on religion, which is one thing I am trying to understand. You could help, instead of attacking me.

 

(disillusioned, I particularly like what you said. You were not being an ass (or as we say here, an arse) )

[freshstart]

4 minutes ago, Miriam said:

your views on religion, which is one thing I am trying to understand. You could help, instead of attacking me.

Personally, I'd love to see you really willing to understand. But that requires an open mind, a willingness to view something differently, to at least entertain a thought that you might not ordinarily allow yourself. If you can't do that, then go away.  In the meantime,  answer me this: will Christians all have spiritual lobotomies when they enter heaven? I ask because I want to know how they will enjoy heaven knowing that billions of people are suffering an eternity in hell? How will they ignore that while hanging out in heaven? How will that work?

[Miriam]

7 minutes ago, freshstart said:

Personally, I'd love to see you really willing to understand. But that requires an open mind, a willingness to view something differently, to at least entertain a thought that you might not ordinarily allow yourself. If you can't do that, then go away.  In the meantime,  answer me this: will Christians all have spiritual lobotomies when they enter heaven? I ask because I want to know how they will enjoy heaven knowing that billions of people are suffering an eternity in hell? How will they ignore that while hanging out in heaven? How will that work?

 

I am trying to understand, that doesn't mean automatically agree with everything you say, because you said it. It also doesn't mean I'm going to agree, just that I want to understand YOUR point of view. I can think differently from you, even think you're totally wrong, but still try and understand. I think you have the right to believe what you want, please give me the same courtesy there.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

10 minutes ago, Miriam said:

 

No, I am here to try and learn about what you believe. RedNeck, everyone else who has responded in this thread has given excellent answers.  If having grace does not mean being gracious, then you are interpreting the English language in a way that is affected by your views on religion, which is one thing I am trying to understand. You could help, instead of attacking me.

 

(disillusioned, I particularly like what you said. You were not being an ass (or as we say here, an arse) )

Your deliberate and intentional misrepresentation of the points I have tried to make to you, as well as the points others have attempted to make, demonstrate that you have no intention of trying to learn anything about what i believe or anyone else here believes.  If learning were your intention you'd shut up and actually listen. 

 

Instead, you misrepresent, misdirect, dodge, and flat out lie.  I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this; but these are the exact same tactics used by every christian who comes here.

 

You have nothing new to offer us.  And you are demonstrably not interested in anything we have to offer you.  Stay if you'd like; but quit lying about your intentions.  

[freshstart]

 

12 minutes ago, Miriam said:

 

I am trying to understand, that doesn't mean automatically agree with everything you say, because you said it. It also doesn't mean I'm going to agree, just that I want to understand YOUR point of view. I can think differently from you, even think you're totally wrong, but still try and understand. I think you have the right to believe what you want, please give me the same courtesy there.

Then why aren't you asking any questions? Why are you so interested in trying to explain things as though we've never heard them before? What makes you think you have anything new to share? Are you here to try to enlighten us or to genuinely learn about why we are no longer Christians?

[Miriam]

9 minutes ago, freshstart said:

Then why aren't you asking any questions? Why are you so interested in trying to explain things as though we've never heard them before? What makes you think you have anything new to share? Are you here to try to enlighten us or to genuinely learn about why we are no longer Christians?

 

I am - I just did. How can I find out your opinions on issues without stating my own and seeing what you say? You are the ones asking me questions, I am just responding. In fact, I tried to ask a question, I asked for some information, and RedNeck told me I needed to get new speakers, you weren't going to accommodate me there.

[freshstart]

10 minutes ago, Miriam said:

How can I find out your opinions on issues without stating my own and seeing what you say?

Very easily. Believe it or not, one can ask a question without stating a position. I can ask what your politcal opinions are without stating mine. Try this:  use a string of words in just one sentence and put that squiggly little punctuation mark at the end.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

15 minutes ago, Miriam said:

 

In fact, I tried to ask a question, I asked for some information, and RedNeck told me I needed to get new speakers, you weren't going to accommodate me there.

Uh.  That is a blatant misrepresentation (lie).  You claimed you could not watch the video because your speakers did not work.  I suggested you 1) visit your local library and watch the video on their computers, 2) visit your local Best Buy to purchase new speakers, or 3) find a local Geek Squad to sort your speakers for you.

 

I further stated that if you wanted to watch the video, you'd make a way; if not, you'd make an excuse.  You made an excuse, vis a vis, we "weren't going to accommodate" you.  As though it is our responsibility to do your homework for you.

 

Worst still, you made a lie in addition to your excuse.  Do you see how you're not actually here to learn, yet?

 

Quote from the thread "christianity Debunked Using Science and History"

13 hours ago (~07:30 28 December 2018)  TheRedneckProfessor said:

"You can make a decision concerning watching the video, though.  Should you choose to watch it, you could make further decisions concerning how to get around the issue with your speakers.  For example, your local library will likely have internet capable computers with functional speakers; you could watch it there.  Your local Best Buy would, no doubt, sell you a new set of speakers.  You might even have a Geek Squad somewhere nearby who could fix your speakers.  But it all starts with you determining if you have the courage to watch the video.  If you really want to watch it, you'll make a way; if not, you'll make an excuse."

 

You want to be friendlier with me?  STOP TELLING LIES. 

 

[freshstart]

Oh and to answer your opening question:

My definition of grace comes from the MW dictionary (#2)

 

a. : approval, favor: stayed in his good graces

b archaic : mercy, pardon

c : a special favor : privilege each in his place, by right, not grace, shall rule his heritage— Rudyard Kipling

d : disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, or clemency

e : a temporary exemption : reprieve

3a : a charming or attractive trait or characteristic Among disagreeable qualities he possessed the saving grace of humor.

b : a pleasing appearance or effect : charm all the grace of youth— John Buchan

c : ease and suppleness (see supple entry 1 sense 2b) of movement or bearing danced with such grace

[Miriam]

Thank you, freshstart - that is an answer!

 

RedNeck - we went through this.  Firstly I don't have the money for speakers, I don't know how much money you have to throw around.  Secondly, I said - if you actually want me to see what you're saying, why not just tell me instead of saying to walk 30 minutes to the library, in high summer, in Australia? Why wouldn't you just tell me? I'm not lying, I think you don't think through what you say. I would like to be on friendlier terms.

[Miriam]

Here's your chance - just tell me, now.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 minutes ago, Miriam said:

Thank you, freshstart - that is an answer!

 

RedNeck - we went through this.  Firstly I don't have the money for speakers, I don't know how much money you have to throw around.  Secondly, I said - if you actually want me to see what you're saying, why not just tell me instead of saying to walk 30 minutes to the library, in high summer, in Australia? Why wouldn't you just tell me? I'm not lying, I think you don't think through what you say. I would like to be on friendlier terms.

No.  I will not tell you.  Your continuing propensity to make excuses tells me that you don't really want to know.  Your continuing insistence to misrepresent every point made to you tells me you don't really want to understand.  And your continuing lies tell me you do not want to be on friendlier terms.

 

[Miriam]

Please read what I just wrote in the pro life post. Then answer.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

20 minutes ago, Miriam said:

Please read what I just wrote in the pro life post. Then answer.

Had any luck with the moderators yet?

[sdelsolray]

13 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No.  I will not tell you.  Your continuing propensity to make excuses tells me that you don't really want to know.  Your continuing insistence to misrepresent every point made to you tells me you don't really want to understand.  And your continuing lies tell me you do not want to be on friendlier terms.

 

RP,

 

Relax.  You are being hyperbolic, pedantic and are overreacting.

 

Poster Miriam may indeed be here to promote her particular religious beliefs, notwithstanding her claims otherwise.  So what?  It seems her core intent is to discuss topics without having to defend her opinions or address skepticism.  Again, so what?

 

Yes, she is deeply infected with a particular strain of the God Virus (which one is not known yet) and seems to have little experience in defending her mere assertions (she calls them opinions - that's funny).  Once again, so what?

 

Compared to most (nearly all?) of the other professed Christians who show up on this forum, poster Miriam is quite tame, civil and coherent.

 

Again, relax.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, sdelsolray said:

RP,

 

Relax.  You are being hyperbolic, pedantic and are overreacting.

 

Poster Miriam may indeed be here to promote her particular religious beliefs, notwithstanding her claims otherwise.  So what?  It seems her core intent is to discuss topics without having to defend her opinions or address skepticism.  Again, so what?

 

Yes, she is deeply infected with a particular strain of the God Virus (which one is not known yet) and seems to have little experience in defending her mere assertions (she calls them opinions - that's funny).  Once again, so what?

 

Compared to most (nearly all?) of the other professed Christians who show up on this forum, poster Miriam is quite tame, civil and coherent.

 

Again, relax.

I'll take it under advisement.