Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted December 31, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted December 31, 2018 15 hours ago, florduh said: I had some hopes, but it seems we are playing chess with a pigeon once again. But I'm probably just a bit worked up and have a closed mind. I believe Ms. Miriam done up and R-U-N-N-O-F-T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 I imagine someone already mentioned that the closed mind idea doesnt really apply to something you already deeply experienced for years and decided you didnt like. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverHealed52Years Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 18 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said: the "doubt is sin" indoctrination has been so successful It is very successful. The very strong teaching of "doubt is sin" AND "if you doubt and don't have perfect unwavering faith god wont answer your prayers or heal your body" is what kept me in the cult so long. I was terrified to have any doubt because I needed healing so badly. It put great stress and anxiety on me. What madness and insanity. It took me much longer to get out of the cult then it would have without that bad teaching.. The don't waver or doubt teaching is pure evil and ruins millions of peoples lives! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted December 31, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted December 31, 2018 When demonstrable facts are dismissed as "beliefs" I see no point in continuing the discussion. If you take exception to that state of affairs and then are accused of just being emotional, riled up or not thinking clearly, I figure I'm better off discussing things with my doG. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 This entire thread from start to finish should be a teaching lesson for how to spot evangelistic tactics 101. It was obvious to me from the second she showed her face on the intro forum that she was here to evangelize. Then I came over and read this thread and it really pissed me off. You guys opened up and shared your heart, personal stories, and researched materials only to have her dismiss most of it, offer disingenuous thanks, and play the victim all at the same time. Pretty impressive actually. **Moderator, quick question: can I say “fuck you” to this lady? Or would that be offensive? Never mind. Hold on let me address her personally before I continue: Lady, take your deceptive tactics and victim-hood mentality and f*** off (smiley face emoji). Oh just kidding sweeety my dear I meant no offense only joking lol. Here to be open and listen (smiley face haha emoji and praying hands). Makes me want to puke I absolutely hate seeing good people throw out advice and info to someone who could give 2 shits. Ugh, sorry, ever since I left god and shit on the holy spirit, my ungodly language just will not stop. So sorry. Here let me start over @Miriam we got off on the wrong foot. I’d love to share my new views on Christianity with you... there is no god and ... HAAAAAIL SATAN! 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 40 minutes ago, Aaron81 said: This entire thread from start to finish should be a teaching lesson for how to spot evangelistic tactics 101. It was obvious to me from the second she showed her face on the intro forum that she was here to evangelize. Then I came over and read this thread and it really pissed me off. You guys opened up and shared your heart, personal stories, and researched materials only to have her dismiss most of it, offer disingenuous thanks, and play the victim all at the same time. Pretty impressive actually. **Moderator, quick question: can I say “fuck you” to this lady? Or would that be offensive? Never mind. Hold on let me address her personally before I continue: Lady, take your deceptive tactics and victim-hood mentality and f*** off (smiley face emoji). Oh just kidding sweeety my dear I meant no offense only joking lol. Here to be open and listen (smiley face haha emoji and praying hands). Makes me want to puke I absolutely hate seeing good people throw out advice and info to someone who could give 2 shits. Ugh, sorry, ever since I left god and shit on the holy spirit, my ungodly language just will not stop. So sorry. Here let me start over @Miriam we got off on the wrong foot. I’d love to share my new views on Christianity with you... there is no god and ... HAAAAAIL SATAN! When someone claims a major love affair with the Jesus, they are here to evangelize. And when they disappear after we lob our anti-Christian stuff at them, they weren't really here to learn something from us but to win back souls. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 @midniterider Yep! If she’s an evangelical as she claims to be, I sincerely doubt she would have been able to push past the cognitive dissonance and read or watch a single one of those postings you guys put up for her. Doubtful she looked at or read a single one of them. I care for those on this sacred site. Those who would have to endure her manipulative tactics while still dressing personal wounds. I give a fuck at this point and it felt good to lash out. Hey don’t come up in this house with that bull shit. Not having it. This site, to me, is holy ground. True holy ground. Where we purified ourselves and shared our deepest thoughts and experiences with each other as we grasped at reality with everything we had. We purged ourselves from that evil philosophy of self hatred and masochism. There are appropriate forums on here for her bullshit and last time I checked, this wasn’t one of them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted January 2, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 2, 2019 Yeah I got that feeling as soon as she cut and ran from our questions. One by one she started refusing to answer. First TRP, then TS, then me. Meanwhile claiming we were being harsh or abusive. Lady u ain't seen harsh! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverHealed52Years Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 On 12/31/2018 at 4:42 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said: On 12/30/2018 at 1:08 PM, florduh said: I had some hopes, but it seems we are playing chess with a pigeon once again. But I'm probably just a bit worked up and have a closed mind. I believe Ms. Miriam done up and R-U-N-N-O-F-T. She is to busy bragging and laughing with all her Xian friends about the fun game she just played and how much of our time and energy she wasted to return any time soon. If she does return she would have to acknowledge my life story (and others who shared theirs also), which she so quickly and coldly brushed off. So we wont hear from her! I have worked with Xians that played all kinds of games with people and got great glee and fun from doing so. When I said something about it they said such things as "that is Sunday this business" ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted January 3, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 3, 2019 On 12/28/2018 at 11:32 PM, Miriam said: I didn't doubt it - some of you just need to cool off a bit! She was too condescending throughout all her posts. I was done with (the troll) as soon as I started to see her replies. When anyone in real life or on-line starts talking 'word salad' (answers are all over the place without giving an answer and often will blame the other person) I know they are not one bit interested in helping or in listening, I can easily walk away now and call bullshit. Reminds me of Trump. Brainwashed and dumb. As much as it stills hurts sometimes, I'm glad the veil came off my own dumb eyes. If anyone truly wanted to know how we felt or why we left christianity, they can sit here and read the testimonies for months (like I did) before breaking into our site and stirring things up. I don't like shit disturbers anymore. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverHealed52Years Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 I know we all have compassion and want to help those that contact us on this site.... but maybe next time, still be warm and friendly, but immediately just send them the links to our testimonies and the other wonderful links to information that some of you sent her. Keep those links saved off somewhere so it is fast and easy to get to them. It will save us much time and energy. Then, If they give reasonable questions and answers, without the "tude" then consider conversing with them....well anyway just my two cents....it's what I will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag_NO_stic Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 EDIT: I'd like to politely remove my thanks for polite and respectful posting. xD I missed someone playing victim and *eyeroll* I have not read through this whole thread, don't have a lot of time (sorry!) to read it at and write my little novel here, so I'm sorry for any duplicate answers or anything. I would like to thank you for (what I've seen of your posting anyway) being kind and respectful. I will always support challenging your beliefs (no matter what they are at any given time) and searching for truth and understanding. Wherever you land with that is your prerogative, but it's certainly a relief not to be on the defense/offense! Honestly, I'm not trying to be that person, but the Bible is one of those books that changed my mind. I was really, really, really on fire for Christ. I was dying to the flesh, I was on board with giving up this life to spend eternity with Jesus, I always read the Bible devotionally and was armed with apologetics to defend the Bible. So, per my beliefs at the time, I accepted Young Earth Creationism and the concept of the New Covenant. I was able to brush off a lot of things that bugged me or that other people brought up such as, "Oh, but it's not that way anymore. Jesus transformed everything." I accepted the Bible as devoid of error and never knew or believed otherwise. It was Youtube, reading books (I know you're not able to afford any now, but I could see if my Amazon Kindle would let you borrow mine!), and studying the parts of Scripture that I hadn't really read before and in a different way. I used to read the Bible to grow as a person and see what truths God had for me. As soon as I started reading it a bit more critically, my whole world fell apart and it was truly devastating. There is a misconception, at least I believed it when I was a Christian, that people who leave the faith are doing so in some kind of active rebellion. They have "tasted and seen" God's goodness and rejected it, they hate God and embrace sinful acts. For me, the actual truth is that my faith was ripped away from me. The tears I have shed, the pleas when I was alone and with other Christians, the meetings with pastors, oh lord the prayers, more tears....begging, I sobbed for God to show himself to me. Please, I plead with you, don't tell me that "it just looks like god has unfinished business" or whatever. Even if that's the truth, it's just the shittiest thing to tell another person. That is long gone. "The scales have fallen from my eyes," it's like not being able to unsee or unknow about a cheating spouse. It's just there now, ruined. It's why I'm filled with a personal sort of fury/heartbreak when Christians tell me that all I have to do is knock and he is there. Just seek him, he'll answer. God is love, *ALL* he wants is a relationship with you, etc. etc. That's just not true. And just like I can't try to convince you, I can't be convinced anymore. And being told that I am any number of "not doing ____" in order to hear from him makes it worse. That's not a relationship. I don't "test" and "ignore" and "punish" and "shame" by husband, who I love more than anyone else. I don't hold hell over his head to make him love me or demand worship for my awesome qualities. My future children will need to learn hard lessons, but I'm NEVER going to just watch as HORRIFIC things happen to them. If I witness an assault or suffering or tears....I don't do nothing. You wouldn't tolerate God's behavior from any human. That's not love. You know what love is. You might disguise it as, "I could never do ____, but I just don't have the mind of god." But you still know. Demanding your "son-self" to "pay for" the "sins" (aka arbitrary rules you could just decide don't bug you, unless you're not all powerful) of other people.....just to be able to tolerate the things you created....is all kinds of wacko. It makes no sense. Creating a place for people to suffer eternally is literally the antithesis of mercy. Or, knowing someone was going to end up there, creating that person would be the antithesis of mercy. And it's okay to acknowledge that. When I finally accepted that, "the peace that surpasses all understanding" hit me for the first time. I realized that EVERY SINGLE THING I had attributed to God in the past may not have been him. Maybe it was just me trying to make sense of the connectedness I feel with others and with the earth. Maybe something that really did just happen as a coincidence, I tried to give meaning to. My prayers had like a 50/50 shot, kinda like if I didn't pray at all. What is in it for you, why are you a Christian? Are you scared of a hell? If hell was NO factor, would you live life differently at all? Sorry it's so long of a response, I just tend to be more vulnerable with people who indicate that just want to listen. I even capitalized certain words like "God" for you, I don't typically do that anymore. If you're not trying to convert me back, if you're only wanting to understand, watch some videos on Youtube of Bart Ehrman or Dan Barker who helped me look at the bible in a different way. They show errors I never noticed before and a way to look at the bible through a historical lens. Feel free to PM me if you'd like. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 ^^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag_NO_stic Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 On 1/3/2019 at 8:08 AM, Margee said: She was too condescending throughout all her posts. I was done with (the troll) as soon as I started to see her replies. When anyone in real life or on-line starts talking 'word salad' (answers are all over the place without giving an answer and often will blame the other person) I know they are not one bit interested in helping or in listening, I can easily walk away now and call bullshit. Reminds me of Trump. Brainwashed and dumb. As much as it stills hurts sometimes, I'm glad the veil came off my own dumb eyes. If anyone truly wanted to know how we felt or why we left christianity, they can sit here and read the testimonies for months (like I did) before breaking into our site and stirring things up. I don't like shit disturbers anymore. On 1/2/2019 at 4:12 PM, LogicalFallacy said: Yeah I got that feeling as soon as she cut and ran from our questions. One by one she started refusing to answer. First TRP, then TS, then me. Meanwhile claiming we were being harsh or abusive. Lady u ain't seen harsh! Y'all. I wouldn't have wrote all my shit if I had known she was being a troll. Here's what I get for skipping to the end. Maybe I'll edit out my thanks lol...damn, suckered again. It appears I need to stop trying to "help them understand," they just don't see it. Maddening. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerk Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 On 12/28/2018 at 8:29 PM, Miriam said: I'm sorry, I've tried to have respectful conversation here, and it is not possible - I have been accused of being closed minded, but confronted with the same. I really don't think the majority of people on this forum are like that at all, just the very noisy ones. Could you please help me by posting links to helpful sources that contain information on your point of view, things like how you see history in contradiction to Christianity, any personal belief reasons why it makes no sense etc. Not books, I can't afford it. Thank you for your replies. I will not respond to nasty posts in answer to this post. It is up to you now how you want to represent yourselves. Also, a thank you to the people here, like MOHO, who have treated me well. Miriam Hi, Miriam, I haven't been around much lately so I don't know what's going on, but as far as my own point of view, you can check out my blog right here on Ex-C called Be Ready Always to Give an Answer. You might want to start with the oldest post and read forward in time. I'm a former Christian who didn't realize the problems with the Bible until I was over 50 years old. Then one day I noticed something, and really started investigating. It's not that I wasn't a Bible student before... I was! What I've realized since then was that I had always studied the Bible with the intent of either proving it true, or, more often, just to try to understand how I was supposed to live and to worship. It had never occurred to me to try to find out whether it was true or not. Having been a member of a church that taught that the Bible was 100% true and 100% consistent from beginning to end, it didn't take long for me to deconvert once I realized that premise wasn't true. Anyway, it's all there on the blog if you're interested. Good luck! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted January 4, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted January 4, 2019 3 hours ago, ag_NO_stic said: Y'all. I wouldn't have wrote all my shit if I had known she was being a troll. Here's what I get for skipping to the end. Maybe I'll edit out my thanks lol...damn, suckered again. It appears I need to stop trying to "help them understand," they just don't see it. Maddening. Your shit might help a lurker or two. That's really the only reason I kept interacting with MaryDamn... I mean Miriam. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted January 5, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 5, 2019 8 hours ago, ag_NO_stic said: Y'all. I wouldn't have wrote all my shit if I had known she was being a troll. Here's what I get for skipping to the end. Maybe I'll edit out my thanks lol...damn, suckered again. It appears I need to stop trying to "help them understand," they just don't see it. Maddening. While it's a highly contentious topic, engaging trolls can have the benefit of pointing out their trollishness and errors in their way of thinking. Some say this is pointless, however always think of the person you'll never hear of who might read such a reply and have the lights come on. TLDR what TRP said. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrkhoos Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Hmm, you know, it is interesting for me to observe something. Not just about Christians, but anyone actually.This has been a source of reflection for many years. About the fundamental axioms one holds. From what I can gather, any philosophical system has a base system of several presuppositions. Not many, and simple enough for any commoner to understand. Many also have a basic effect on emotion ( the reward/punishment motif) etc. The best of them, however are untestable. Or , might I say, every test will prove they are true. That is what makes them so powerful in my opinion. For example, the IF you pray hard enough, God will respond. Well, from that one can easily say whoever has an experience during prayer did pray enough, whoever does not, did not. So the blame is always on the one praying, but the measurement is hidden, and it is done by God. And so on. Any contradiction can be explained by saying "you just don't understand God's ways". This is something that really bugs me. And made and makes me wonder. Of course, the system had thousands of years of refining to get where it is now, so it isn't by no means silly. So you perceive an event, for example God creating man although he knows some of them will be sent to hell. This seems to contradict the idea that the purpose of man's creation was eternity with God, personal illumination, etc. Well, apart from universal salvation, which most christian churches reject, the most common answer I got was a version of "this a is a mystery" , there is no space/time in God, etc. And this answer is considered enough for most. What works, works, what doesn't, also works, but we are too limited to understand. As a student of screenwriter and amateur reader in psychology I have to hand to it, the system is bulletproof. Any test will reveal it is true. Like, why are there murders, and tortures if God is loving? Well this test of a basic presupposition gets an answer from another presupposition - God's judgement is ultimately unknown to us, so all that happens is loving, but in a way we don't and might never understand. This is how even the smartest most profound people can get caught up in these kind of systems. Every major religion I think has one. And this kind of system can be observed also in the "religion" of democracy, or "science", etc. Once you get into it, and stop seeing it, contemplating with a little detachment, then it gets you. This what I am trying to avoid. The problem is that as many of you observed, to get out of these axioms, you HAVE TO SEE THEM. Many people do not see them, I mean they are not conscious of them. This is the master work of any thought and mind control system, where you do not see the system. Probably this just a grain of sand in whole topic of human psychology. My two cents of the billion dollar riches of the human soul. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeeker0 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 @Myrkhoos science is based on observation and empirical evidence and has nothing in common with "it's a mystery" explanations. It's the opposite of the "I don't know" claim. This is not to say that science has all the answers or even the correct ones (theories can be refined) but it can test observable things. Religion cannot hence "it's a mystery" claims. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag_NO_stic Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 22 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said: @Myrkhoos science is based on observation and empirical evidence and has nothing in common with "it's a mystery" explanations. It's the opposite of the "I don't know" claim. This is not to say that science has all the answers or even the correct ones (theories can be refined) but it can test observable things. Religion cannot hence "it's a mystery" claims. My only comment here is it that there can still be plenty of bias because we're still giving it our own meaning. Our human brains love to find patterns, even if there aren't any, and we mistakenly draw all kinds of conclusions that have nothing to do with the raw data. Example: Domestic abuse has gone up in recent years. Has it? Or has our definition of abuse changed, meaning more behaviors fall into the category of "abuse." That's why "science is changing" all the time, it's just us drawing new conclusions with new information. We're just monkeys trying to figure shit out lol, but the capacity for us to treat science just like we used to with the Bible with all this reverence is still there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeeker0 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 49 minutes ago, ag_NO_stic said: My only comment here is it that there can still be plenty of bias because we're still giving it our own meaning. Our human brains love to find patterns, even if there aren't any, and we mistakenly draw all kinds of conclusions that have nothing to do with the raw data. Example: Domestic abuse has gone up in recent years. Has it? Or has our definition of abuse changed, meaning more behaviors fall into the category of "abuse." That's why "science is changing" all the time, it's just us drawing new conclusions with new information. We're just monkeys trying to figure shit out lol, but the capacity for us to treat science just like we used to with the Bible with all these reverence is still there. The parameters of how we measure with science may change which is why the results change. Data will always change according to how you measure it. I still don't think it can be put anywhere near the category of religion, which turns to "mystery" for the questions that can't be answered. Science at least is honest- " we don't know" instead of "god did it and he's a mystery". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 3 hours ago, Myrkhoos said: And this kind of system can be observed also in the "religion" of democracy, or "science", etc. Once you get into it, and stop seeing it, contemplating with a little detachment, then it gets you. This what I am trying to avoid. The problem is that as many of you observed, to get out of these axioms, you HAVE TO SEE THEM. Many people do not see them, I mean they are not conscious of them. This is the master work of any thought and mind control system, where you do not see the system. Science, while not being a religion, can become a deeply held and deeply valued system of thought by people. Whether one's depth of conviction to science is on par with religious fundamentalism is debatable. Insulting science though can sure generate some posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag_NO_stic Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 1 hour ago, TruthSeeker0 said: The parameters of how we measure with science may change which is why the results change. Data will always change according to how you measure it. I still don't think it can be put anywhere near the category of religion, which turns to "mystery" for the questions that can't be answered. Science at least is honest- " we don't know" instead of "god did it and he's a mystery". You and I completely agree there. Definitely not on the same playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeeker0 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 2 hours ago, ag_NO_stic said: You and I completely agree there. Definitely not on the same playing field. There is one Christian behaviour that will annoy the hell out of me and get an irritated response (even if I should know better) - the "accept it's in god's hands and we don't know his ways" parroting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PurpleLilac Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 On 12/28/2018 at 9:42 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said: Yeah, I know. I'm an angry young man, right? Maybe this will help you understand why: That was horrifying and difficult to read. Maybe because I recognize it,remember it,can still taste it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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