TruthSeeker0 Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 Let's put forth the argument that god revealed himself in many ways already (mostly in the OT) and the "word was made flesh." Is this good enough for you, and if it isn't, would you ask god for another sign to prove his existence, and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator Hierophant Posted January 2, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted January 2, 2019 If Christianity is true, quite frankly, it is beyond me to understand it. I was just listening to a debate involving Laurence Krauss and two proponets of intelligent design. One of the debaters advocating ID stated he was and evangelical, who believed the Bible was the word of God, and he finds the evidence for evolution overwhelming. I am perplexed how this man is able to hold so much conflicting information in his head at any one time. How can he say he believes the Bible, but definitely does not think Genesis creation accounts are literally true, but then evaluates other parts of the Bible as literally true. Exactly what method does he employ to know when to take the Bible literally, when to take it figuratively, and when it just becomes a divine mystery. In my experience, talking to people in the church is like taking a survey of the mentally insane. People believe all kinds of whacky ideas that sound like the ravings of a mad man. My reason for mentioning this is that the church, viewed holistically, cannot even agree on what Christianity even is. No two believers believe the same thing. There is no agreement on the "essentials" from one church to another. Before I could even question whether or not I find the claims of Christianity good enough, I would have to know what Christianity even is. Most popular answer you hear is "a personal relationship with God." I have no idea where that rabbit comes from, because nowhere in the NT does that little piece of theological magic make itself apparent. And let's be frank, a personal relationship with God is not what people believe to be the bottom line, the dogma takes precedence. Then we are back to square one, what is the dogma of Christianity? Nobody can agree, just have a heart to heart relationship with God......YAY!!! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 2, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted January 2, 2019 The Bible itself warns believers about false signs and wonders and false prophets thus rendering any "miracles" as useless for demonstrating Bible God's existence. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 On 12/28/2018 at 7:43 PM, TruthSeeker0 said: ... Is this good enough for you, and if it isn't, would you ask god for another sign to prove his existence, and why? No. No. Pretending mythology is true, other than for hypothetical discourse, is a waste of time. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeeker0 Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 3 hours ago, TinMan said: Exactly what method does he employ to know when to take the Bible literally, when to take it figuratively, and when it just becomes a divine mystery. Wishful thinking. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeeker0 Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 This thread was for the benefit of @Miriam because she posited this question, however she didn't seem to be keen when I said I would post a topic on this question for her benefit. Strange, considering I thought she was here to learn from us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 hour ago, TruthSeeker0 said: This thread was for the benefit of @Miriam because she posited this question, however she didn't seem to be keen when I said I would post a topic on this question for her benefit. Strange, considering I thought she was here to learn from us. I think she learned one thing while she was here: That if you dissemble about your intentions and get caught out, you instantly destroy any benefit of the doubt, credibility and goodwill you were given at the outset. Did she actually expect us to not notice when she went into preachy mode? As for signs and the OT, as a strong agnostic and occasional neuroscience geek, I really can't think of any sign that would work for me. If someone makes a big to-do, complete with pyrotechnics and spectacle, it's more likely to drive a wedge between me and the being putting on the show, because it's a brag: "Behold my noisy, flashy power, O mortals!" C'mon, deities -- Just come talk to me. If I like you enough I'll hang out with you. You don't even have to be a real god; you just have to be reasonable, friendly, and moderately sane. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverHealed52Years Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 11 hours ago, Astreja said: the being putting on the show, because it's a brag: "Behold my noisy, flashy power, O mortals!" What really turns me off is how the OT has a gazillion times God is BLUSTERING and BELLOWING about something! 11 hours ago, Astreja said: C'mon, deities -- Just come talk to me. If I like you enough I'll hang out with you. You don't even have to be a real god; you just have to be reasonable, friendly, and moderately sane. Me to, exactly! I keep asking for anyone or anything that is out there that can hear me to show up! At this point in time I don't even care who or what they are as long as they are nice and don't harm me in any way! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries256 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 No, Id demand the lunatic to present itself, to explain itself, its atrocities it supposedly committed and to explain itself for the atrocities against innocent and good people at the hands of its psychotic followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
older Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 On 1/1/2019 at 5:10 PM, TinMan said: Exactly what method does he employ to know when to take the Bible literally, when to take it figuratively, and when it just becomes a divine mystery. He goes with whatever position happens to confirm his already-formed opinions and ideas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilsCabanaBoy Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 On 12/29/2018 at 1:43 PM, TruthSeeker0 said: Let's put forth the argument that god revealed himself in many ways already (mostly in the OT) and the "word was made flesh." Is this good enough for you, and if it isn't, would you ask god for another sign to prove his existence, and why? I don't think I would ask for a sign if God is actually communicating with me, but he will because that's his style. He could give me a bigger penis as a sign, then I'll bow down and worship him. lol, oh mercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted February 18, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 18, 2019 12 hours ago, DevilsCabanaBoy said: I don't think I would ask for a sign if God is actually communicating with me, but he will because that's his style. He could give me a bigger penis as a sign, then I'll bow down and worship him. lol, oh mercy. Just speak the magic words, "I am all that ever was, is, or will ever be! Penis, hence forth double in size! I am commands it!" Then follow up with: "And the word was made flesh!!!" How do you think the rest of us got so big and tough? Just say the magic chant.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilsCabanaBoy Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Joshpantera said: Just speak the magic words, "I am all that ever was, is, or will ever be! Penis, hence forth double in size! I am commands it!" Then follow up with: "And the word was made flesh!!!" How do you think the rest of us got so big and tough? Just say the magic chant.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1989 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 On 1/1/2019 at 8:15 PM, florduh said: The Bible itself warns believers about false signs and wonders and false prophets thus rendering any "miracles" as useless for demonstrating Bible God's existence. The Bible also tells us that one can know which prophets are false is that they'll speak and act contrary to God's commandments. That's why even if the Bible is true and everything happened as written Jesus is a false prophet, as he continually broke the Sabbath and encouraged others to do so as well. It's not the most odious commandment a prophet could break, but it's always the details that'll get ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 I did ask for a sign. Now I'm here. mwc 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted February 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 hours ago, mwc said: I did ask for a sign. Now I'm here. mwc QFT Likewise I spent many hours and prayers asking for some sign. I remember specifically telling God that I was losing my belief and if I didn't get a sign I was going to leave the church... here I am. I can only concluded that God either did not care to give me a sign, is incapable of doing so, or doesn't exist. Regardless of which it is, to me it all looks like a god that doesn't exist. People's personal experiences and convictions do nothing. Every religion has them. How do i know which is true? Even the Hindu gods give "signs" in the modern age that people believe. Statues of Mary weep for Catholics. Protestants receive revelations from god and 'know him personally'. Muslims see impossible medical miracles. So which is true? All of them? A logical impossibility. One of them? Remotely possible but which? None of them? In absence of any sign this is the only honest conclusion I can reach. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 On 12/28/2018 at 10:43 PM, TruthSeeker0 said: Let's put forth the argument that god revealed himself in many ways already (mostly in the OT) and the "word was made flesh." Is this good enough for you, and if it isn't, would you ask god for another sign to prove his existence, and why? Well since it was me looking for evidence (and not finding it)of the OT signs that finalized my deconversion process. No the word made flesh isn’t a very good sign. Especially since their isn’t much proof for the word made flesh’s existence also. However er because of my indoctrination at one point last year I did almost have a relapse. Surprised the hell out of me lmao. But I was VERY specific with my request. I was a dumbass the day before and watched one of those damn sappy Christian tear jerkers. The next day I went to my wife’s church for their home coming. Honestly I just wanted some good church food. I love that shit. It’s like going to a country all you can eat buffet for FREE. Well they had a guest speaker who was the original pastor. You could tell at times during the service he was starting to get ahlzhiemers. But at the end of the sermon all those emotions started flooding back and I made a request that if God really were real and if that really was his messenger for him to come to me and talk to me. I even had a specific thing I wanted him to say so I knew God had reveled it to him. Well to say say the least I’m still here. I even tried to make it a little easier and walked right by him. Yeah christian brainwashing sucks. I’m hoping that was my last mishap. DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted February 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 21, 2019 On 12/29/2018 at 4:43 PM, TruthSeeker0 said: Let's put forth the argument that god revealed himself in many ways already (mostly in the OT) and the "word was made flesh." Is this good enough for you, and if it isn't, would you ask god for another sign to prove his existence, and why? Except you can't put forth the argument which is kinda stumbling block to me. Noah's flood: Didn't happen Genesis: Many stories similar to contemporary cultures. New research indicates far from an exodus, the Israelites sprang from the Canaanites... so essentially the same people. So there is no way I can believe god actually did reveal himself. However if I did believe god did reveal himself in the OT, then that would be good enough for me to believe he existed by mere fact that I believed he revealed himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 21, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted February 21, 2019 god had plenty enough opportunities to reveal himself to me. I ain't asking ever again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 I have no use for a God I have to obey. I want a God that will obey me! Casey 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1989 Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Personally, I would be afraid to ask God for a sign again, cause I'm dread that I could actually receive a sign and then I would have to come back again to this whole Christian lifestyle and make sense of it all again. Honestly, I like the secular world too much to come back again to conservative ways of life. Well, I see lots of disadvantages in both worlds, whether it's liberal or conservative world. I just stick to rationality, love, kindness, hope and as much as I can the understanding and help for others. Although I have also lots of anger, dark emotions and pessimism inside of me I try to make my daily life to work somehow without God and church friendships. Unfortunatelly, in my personal reflection I think that if I would have a terminal disease, terrifying accident in a car or on a plane or if someone would kidnap me, probably I would say my personal prayer to God, although I have a chaos in my mind related to faith in general. I don't know, if I could die as a strong, unshakable Atheist, especially if I was conscious before death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted March 1, 2019 Moderator Share Posted March 1, 2019 9 minutes ago, Lost said: Personally, I would be afraid to ask God for a sign again, cause I'm dread that I could actually receive a sign and then I would have to come back again to this whole Christian lifestyle and make sense of it all again. Honestly, I like the secular world too much to come back again to conservative ways of life. Well, I see lots of disadvantages in both worlds, whether it's liberal or conservative world. I just stick to rationality, love, kindness, hope and as much as I can the understanding and help for others. Although I have also lots of anger, dark emotions and pessimism inside of me I try to make my daily life to work somehow without God and church friendships. Unfortunatelly, in my personal reflection I think that if I would have a terminal disease, terrifying accident in a car or on a plane or if someone would kidnap me, probably I would say my personal prayer to God, although I have a chaos in my mind related to faith in general. I don't know, if I could die as a strong, unshakable Atheist, especially if I was conscious before death. Which god would you pray to, and why? Possibly more interesting is why am I praying to that god, and not any of the others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 23 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said: Which god would you pray to, and why? Possibly more interesting is why am I praying to that god, and not any of the others? I guess, I would pray to a God that I have always known- Jesus. And if I was in a lot of pain and lonely, before death probably I would imagine the figure with open hands (ready to hug me) in light and try to imagine warmth and love that people who experience near death experience see and feel. And I would think in my mind or said "You know my whole life and deepest thoughts, emotions and doubts and I'm sorry that I wasn't able to live a life in Your godly ways, but if this is Your will, please accept me into Your kingdom, although I am very messed up and confused person". I am a person with personality disorder and anxiety-type person, full of emotions that are out of control, so it's hard for me to decide, whether it's better to live in a conservative world or in liberal world...so I just live in a kind of mixed my own world with elements of liberal and conservative world. Unfortunately I can't make myself a good, full of faith, a 100% convinced Christian or an Atheist Activist that is 100% convinced that there is no God. I am a number 5 on Richard Dawkins' Spectrum of theistic probability: 5. "Leaning towards atheism. Lower than 50% but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical." That makes things really difficult, cause Christians and Atheists are much more into 100% sure people, than doubters and skeptics. I hope that somwhere in the world there are support groups for people who are not 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 "If god exists he will have to beg for my forgiveness." This is the only line that ever comes to mind when contemplating this possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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