Myrkhoos

searching and asking and hurting

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Hi there,

 

           Well, I might say that I am very confused. Very, very confused. Came here to may find some answers, one way or another. Confused that I was literally spiritually abused by a priest some years ago, and the rest of the time in the Church ( Orthodox Christian) has not so far been so full of joy as advertised. I dedicated my will and my decisions, to this guy, I asked a girl to marry me because he said so, thought I should then go to a monastery because he said so, started taking a new name because he said so, did not go for medical support for various chronic psychological issues, thought it was all because I sinned against the Lord and all that. And this guy is well respected in my home town. I wasn't even believed for a while. And, of course, like in many traditions, there is idea that God speaks through the spiritual father, if you have faith, and you should never discus or disagree. I almost fell into grand delusion and psychosis. I kind of did actually. And I met others like him which kind of psychologically messed me up. Very few, I admit, were helpful.

          And this brings me to the first point of my criticism of this faith and practice. Poorly educated people, struggling with their issues, are put there to lead the people who sometimes, many times, blindly trust them. This mind erasing, self killing, human idolatry cloaked in HOLY OBEDIENCE to me is incredible. The almighty God, ever present and all wise needs human trumpets for others to understand him. I get that I will trust a university professor with great experience in his domain, but he does not say that his knowledge is directly from God, it is because of time and hard work. Obedience has to be the top one thing which makes religion destructive. Or a version of obedience. Because it destroys free thought and the possibility of criticism. Hey, you cannot argue with God, can you now? Whatever you feel or think is of no importance, it is probably demonic or sinful so you better listen to us, because we are God's spokesmen and no matter how foul we may be, he still works through us. The very idea that a God created beings to obey seems morally repugnant to me. It has for some while, but now, I can have the courage to say it clearly. Why create beings with free will if all they can do is obey you? And you call that love? And this idea that God has unconditional love, BUT one the condition you do what he says, otherwise eternal unspeakable torture awaits you. This is the version in the Orthodox Church anyway. And that somehow, I am born evil and need Jesus is again repugnant. Why do you allow for me to be created flawed so you can come and save me? It just seems like some kind of weird game. And me being in so much suffering, praying, confessing, taking communion, and almost nothing happened until I went to a doctor and psychotherapist. And, somehow, I am asked to believe that that is also God's gift. But the very test of spiritual practice kind of failed, as in made me almost a lunatic, and material medicine resolved a bit of that. It is a system where God, the image of God cannot fail. If something good happens, it is God's gift. If something bad happens, it is God's gift, and it also good. But if you say that, these words have no meaning, because good, just, love means everything and anything you want it to meet. And believe me I have tried and still try to make it all fit. I am still asking for an answer. To respond God is unknowable is the opposite of a an answer. The idea that God so loved the world that He gave His Son to die seems, what? You couldn't like just kill Satan from the start and make everything better? How is this sadistic and masochistic event of a God self-inflicting pain on Himself that rational and loving? Human sacrifice is a an act of love? And letting humans for, in the Bible version, stay tormented for 6 000 years before the Incarnation is what, just? And singing hymns about how retched we are and how right he is to be in Hell for our sins....really? Why the wole repenting stuff? If do not grovel before him he does not forgive me? Strange are the ways of the Lord indeed. I am not in the point of saying Christianity is wrong, ( philosophically I am inclined to Pyrrhonian skepticism so definite beliefs would not be my thing), but their claims seems self contradictory. And when asked about, the answer, yes, but St Paul said, Christ is our wisdom, etc,.. The problem with that is there are thousands of religions in the world, some smaller, some bigger. They all have beliefs, methods, and records of experience. If all people held those same convictions there would not be not even ONE christian because no one would convert. 

               I do not know if you felt this, but I really wish it is true. I spent so much time and energy. And it starting to crumble down. The most painful thing is that i prayed for an answer and mostly silence so far.Why/ there are so many why's and so few answers. Like how could the devil choose to sin. How could a perfect being make that choice to rebel? How could sin appear out of nothing? How could Adam be so naive and listen to the devil and not God? If you want to choose what to eat, do you listen to the the spokesman for MacDonalds or a certified nutritionist?   I do not know what and how is Truth with capital T, but a lot of what I thought seems to not have been so. 

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Hi, Myrkhoos. You have many valid concerns, many of which contributed to many of us concluding that we no longer subscribe to religious teachings. Keep questioning. The truth will set you free.

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Welcome!

 

We get it. Brainwashing runs deep, but there actually is no valid basis for the religion. Deconverting is a process that goes quickly for some and slowly for others. Hang in there and keep reading and asking questions here. You're not alone.

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Hey @Myrkhoos

Welcome to Ex C!

 

You have many questions - all of which are not only valid but indicate that you have taken the first step towards thinking/researching your way out of very powerful indoctrination. 

 

1 hour ago, Myrkhoos said:

 I do not know if you felt this, but I really wish it is true.

Not really sure what you are referring to here but if you mean the entire Christian faith well, the concept of a happy hereafter would be nice but I am damn sure glad the rest of it is not true. I am free of the fear that no matter what I do, one teeny, tiny doubt about an unbelievable and irrational doctrine could send me to hell for eternity. That, my friend is a good place to be. Not knowing if you are dammed is a really really shitty thing to perpetrate.

 

It is also really shitty , dangerous, and should be illegal, thing to dissuade persons from seeking counseling when they so desperately need it. Parents are being arrested for withholding medical care from their children. Let's hope that concept will be applied to psychological counseling - going forward. 

 

    - MOHO (Mind Of His Own)

 

 

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Welcome :) This is a good place to be. The process of deconversion can be quite stressful, especially where family is involved. Rest assured that you're not alone...pretty much everyone on this site have had somewhat similar experiences. The "testimonies" forum offers some insights into the experience.

Religion's greatest enemy is rational thought...so keep thinking. :)

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7 hours ago, Derek said:

Welcome :) 

Religion's greatest enemy is rational thought...so keep thinking. :)

 

Ditto!  Hang in there!

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Welcome Myrkhoos!

I think you are less confused than you think 😃 What I mean is that I think you are seeing things more clearly now than you ever did.  You were more confused back when you thought you had it all figured out!  

 

And keep asking the really good questions that you are asking and continue to refuse to be satisfied by lame, non-answers.

 

I spent several years in a similarly toxic environment (protestant in my case) where there was a strong hierarchy and if you were Godly you would listen to the elders and take all of their advice for all of the details of your life...

 

Sadly when I adopted a child with behavioral challenges, my Elder's advice was to keep spanking her until I broke her will.  This guy didn't have a freaking clue about attachment disorders and the way that early childhood trauma manifests as problematic behaviors...

 

Wanting to be a Godly Man I listened to this knucklehead and spanked this poor child really hard and really often, crying afterwards and begging God to make her obey us.

 

Then I learned about 3 Christian adoptive families that ended up beating their adoptive children to death because they thought the way to handle attachment-related behavioral challenges was to break their child's will.

 

This was the beginning of the end of my faith.

 

From that time onward I have resolved to trust and follow the good sense Within Me - and to read and learn from experts in their fields about psychology and parenting.

 

I took back my mind and my autonomy and have not looked back.

 

I'm full of terrible regret for how I parented my daughter in those early years but I'm so glad I got out when I did and she's doing so much better and I have an amazing relationship with her.

 

And we've come up with a lot of great techniques to help her that don't involve spanking.

 

You'll find that you will be your own best guide in this world.  It's a shame that Christianity teaches us to distrust ourself.  You said it so well "mind erasing, self-killing"

 

All the best to you.

 

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Hi Myrkhoos, and welcome to our community!  You came to the right place, and you are following a path that many have already taken.  We are here to support you along the way.  I think you will find a great sense of relief at having introduced yourself and at having shared your thoughts about Christianity and its many problems.  Just the process of "going public" with these thoughts is an important step on the journey.  If you haven't already done so, you will probably one day very soon look in the mirror and say out loud "I am no longer a Christian".  That moment can be both scary and liberating.

 

I do agree with Insightful: rather than seeming confused, you seem to have arrived at a clear-headed understanding of the problems with Christianity.  If you are actually still confused, can you tell us more about that?  

 

You may find it difficult to not have certainty about gods or religions, but this becomes easier.  You will get used to no longer having any religious beliefs and just accepting that you don't know what might be out there.  Like most people, whether they are believers or not, you will follow your conscience rather than some ancient writings.  As you spend more time among us and as you get used to life without religious dogma, your mind will be reprogramming itself and freeing itself from the past.  You will eventually be amazed at the changes you see in yourself.

 

Please feel free to ask questions and to share your feelings as you go through this process. Whatever you may be going through, somebody here has been there too. 

 

Looking forward to hearing more from you...

- TABA

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On 1/3/2019 at 1:01 PM, Myrkhoos said:

God has unconditional love, BUT one the condition you do what he says, otherwise eternal unspeakable torture awaits you.

Preach! Yeah, this issue has bothered me for a long time ; The idea that God loves you unconditionally but only if you mean what he means by 'unconditional love'. Taking a step back from a religious context, I really see this now as one of the delusions of a narcissist who insists on seeing himself as being absolutely virtuous and right while simultaneously behaving horribly. I think when narcissists write or interpret religious scripture it tends to turn into this kind of self-justifying nonsense. That's my theory at least.

 

Welcome to X-Xian! You're on the right path! Glad you're here!

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On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 12:20 AM, Insightful said:

Sadly when I adopted a child with behavioral challenges, my Elder's advice was to keep spanking her until I broke her will.  This guy didn't have a freaking clue about attachment disorders and the way that early childhood trauma manifests as problematic behaviors... 

 

Then I learned about 3 Christian adoptive families that ended up beating their adoptive children to death because they thought the way to handle attachment-related behavioral challenges was to break their child's will.

 

I am soooo glad you caught on soon enough...both my parents tried to BEAT (sometimes with blood drawn) anything and everything "out of me" to break my will and spirit  (extreme narcissist southern Baptist preacher and wife)...It ruined my life totally .. totally fucked up my mind, emotions, physical health and how I respond to the challenges life throws at everyone...I sometimes responded very poorly and made the physical problems worse or hurt myself in some way by  reacting like a TERRIFIED and fear filled 3 year old or being stupid by not thinking clearly and smartly because of severe dissociation and an inability to think (I was beat for having an opinion or thought or emotion they didn't like) , instead of carefully mitigating the problem and reacting like a rationally thinking adult... so glad that you are not doing this to your children.

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@Myrkhoos I am an ex-orthodox christian, my orthodox husband is still a believer. I can relate to every word of your story. Thank-you for sharing it with us.

 

A couple of years ago my husband had a psychotic episode and was in hospital for a month. He became convinced that he was experiencing satan and that he was going to hell. He said god had turned away from him because he didn’t pray enough, fast enough, etc.

 

Then a psychiatrist gave him some little white pills and satan went away. My husband is sure that god healed him, not the doctors or the medication.

 

This bizarre experience prompted me to research the origins of satan and hell, and ultimately abandoning religion. 

 

Is your wife still a christian?

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, NeverHealed52Years said:

both my parents tried to BEAT (sometimes with blood drawn) anything and everything "out of me" to break my will and spirit  (extreme narcissist southern Baptist preacher and wife)...It ruined my life totally .. totally fucked up my mind, emotions, physical health and how I respond to the challenges life throws at everyone...I sometimes responded very poorly and made the physical problems worse or hurt myself in some way by  reacting like a TERRIFIED and fear filled 3 year old or being stupid by not thinking clearly and smartly because of severe dissociation and an inability to think

 

Hello NeverHealed,

 

Thank you so much for sharing that part of your story with me.  How painful, awful, and sad.

 

You are so right that those early childhood experiences really lay a foundation for our emotional framework - our sense of identity, self-worth - and prepare us to respond to life in a certain way.

 

It's interesting that you mention dissociation.  We see moments of that in our now 12 year old.  How when things get stressful she puts on almost a persona - and it's so clearly a means of coping by Escape.

 

We're under good care with a wonderful clinical psychologist.  Sadly, though, these pieces will always be a part of her history, her experience, and her life narrative.  

 

I hate that Fundamentalist Christianity taught me to view my children as Sinners worthy of Hellfire, on a straight path to damnation unless we Godly Parents rescued them at all costs.

 

Now I view children as morally pure as a flower seed - needing the human equivalent of sunlight, water and nutrients to grow and unfurl the beauty already contained Within.

 

I wish you all the best as you continue your journey.  

 

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Thank you for your kind words. 

 

When I say I am confused, it is because I wholeheartdley accepted the doctrine and IT became my life, so seeing problems with it is, somehow, like throwing myself in chaos.  I changed my social groups, my job, my values. Like my inner core is broken to pieces and I want to find something to cling to. Somehow, some ancient Greek and roman philosophers , start to seem attractive, like Seneca, and Pyrrho. I like some things I find in there. But really, feeling like a tornado wiped my whole village away, and I am like, what? I think most of what I lived was illusion, but, still, psychologically I want to cling to it because it was the only thing I had. I don't know if this makes sense.   

 

You said.

21 hours ago, LostinParis said:

@Myrkhoos I am an ex-orthodox christian, my orthodox husband is still a believer. I can relate to every word of your story. Thank-you for sharing it with us.

 

A couple of years ago my husband had a psychotic episode and was in hospital for a month. He became convinced that he was experiencing satan and that he was going to hell. He said god had turned away from him because he didn’t pray enough, fast enough, etc.

 

Then a psychiatrist gave him some little white pills and satan went away. My husband is sure that god healed him, not the doctors or the medication.

 

This bizarre experience prompted me to research the origins of satan and hell, and ultimately abandoning religion. 

 

Is your wife still a christian?

 

 

 

I am not married, sorry if I gave that impression. The girl said no. And we broke up. Luckily for her. I am still sorry I made her pass through all that. 

 

 Yes, I know , I also had similar states like your husband, but maybe not so severe.. I had nightmares and panic attacks and was told it was because of my sins. Or, the the most serious thing, of which I have still have fear, it is because I wasn't obedient enough and full of egoism. And all that talk, of which I think you are aware, of the departing of grace, of the tests of God, of maybe elders like St Silouan, or Sophrony Sakkharov, or elder Joseph the Hesychast. 

 

I have started seeing and researching therapies. There is this guy, Franz Ruppert, who developped a theory and practice of trauma healing. You can look him up. I went to a workshop in his method. It did work. And anyway, I am starting to get very interested in psychotherapy as a field. I also visited an EMDR specialist and that worked. The thing, so much of religion seems to be the projection of a traumatised child's idealisation of his parents, on a cosmic plane. The constant self blaming and denying any fault with the parents, self aggression to please an authority figure, victim-aggresor mentality - you see this in the Bible of God the punisher of his people, and also a victim of his people who stray from him and He complains that he did everything for them.

 

Plus the idea of the gentle , delicate Jesus HAS TO FINALLY BREAK DOWN. The New Testament is on another dimension of harsh expectations and penalties. I mean having a sexual thought throws you into eternal Hell, and so if you get mad at someone and tell them they are a lunatic. The Old Testament rules just said death. New Testament ups the stakes - eternal damnation, unless you acccept that God loves you so much that he is willing to publicly torture himself FOR himself and you have to eat his blood and body. It just sounds like something from a De Sade novel. All that torture. And to show our love, he tests us to see if we are willing to suffer for HIM. Why this need? It he so insecure that me being beaten to death while he watches is the only thing that will convince Him? And the Devil is somehow the bad guy? 

 

And about the devil. How did a most perfect being, when there was NO SIN, just DECIDE, out of the blue, to elevate himself above God. Was this being, who partake in his glory, that stupid? Give away eternity of bliss for something impossible? Did he NOT know God was all powerful/ How does that thought even occur to a being created by the Lord God? From where? It just seems that he either created them extremely stupid, or with the inclination for evil. Free will is the most BS answer ever. You mean a rational being makes an irrational choice? That is just mind-boggling. And Adam and Eve also. You had the choice between God, and the devil and you chose the devil? What kind of idiotic creatures are you? If I walk down the street and see a library and a smelly van in which I hear screams, I am going to enter the smelly van? HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?

 

My journey in Christianity did not give me life in abundance as advertised, it robbed of my life, it gave a lot physical and mental illness , isolation and living in imaginary planes. Not love and truth, but mostly pain and deceit. 

 

Maybe, I will give this the benefit of the doubt, I have not lived the True Christian path. Maybe. 

 

I do not know what is out there, and not even HOW to know that. And I am still afraid that some of you will not accept my views. For example, and I will say this and you are free to ban from the website me or accuse me as you wish, my views on sexuality , although not really clear now, are mostly based on the scope and function of the genitalia. So any other act that normal intercourse between a man and a woman seems to be a deviation. I do not know why, and what to do about this, but this is what I think. And I repeat, it is an argument from anatomy, not culture. I say this because sometimes it seems that, about LGBT issues, you are either extremely pro and non-religious, or religious and extremely against. I do not think things are THAT simple, as nothing is THAT simple about human nature and culture. I am not advocating any view, because I have not researched enough, but I regard with reserve both religious propaganda against LGBT, and LGBT propaganda. For example, I think parades are uncalled for and are a vulgar display of sexuality. I would regard any parade, not only gay parades, in the same way. I feel that sexuality and intimicy are deeply connected and public display is just demeaning. Maybe that sounds prudish. But I do think that modern life has a weird way of also devaluating sexuality, like some religions, by making it less that it is, like some kind everyday act. A shame. I view sexuality is something deep and intimate. I recently read an article from a male porn star and producer who said he NEVER met a girl porn star without a history of emotional or physical or sexual abuse. Viewing your body like just a piece of flesh to used and abused I feel deeply wrong. My body is I, I am my body, it is my identity. Well, this what I feel now. May later, with further knowledge, I will change my mind. Who knows? 

 

But I tell you this, if God IS real, and he IS the TRUTH, then me asking and searching and questioning should be something he wants and like. 

 

 

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@Myrkhoos I’m sorry that you are going through this. Hang in there, it does get easier.

 

I agree, god can become like a surrogate parent. A narcissistic parent who gets all of the credit and none of the blame. The demands for perfection keep us feeling inadequate and unworthy. God has set the bar just a little out of reach, we never feel good enough. We are trained to rely on god because we are so flawed and so helpless without him.

 

It’s great that you are seeking help for your mental illness outside the church. There are psychologists who specialise in Religious Trauma Syndrome. Marlene Winell is often mentioned here.

 

“Not as advertised?” You just didn’t read the fine print! The clauses that make your “insurance policy” void. 

God will answer your prayers. Except when it’s not part of his plan. Or because he is testing your faith. 

God will protect you. Except when he wants you to suffer in order to teach you a lesson. Or because you don’t have enough faith.

And you likely signed this contract when you were too young to understand it.

 

I not surprised that you consider yourself prudish. The orthodox church is preoccupied with sex; who you do it with, when you do it, how you do it, if you're allowed to do it at all. So many paranoid rules around sex.

A trans-female within my husband’s orthodox family has forced me to examine my own biases and prejudices. Perhaps there is no one-size-fits-all moral code. Thoughts and behaviours that harm nobody are probably ok.

 

You said that you are clinging to your beliefs because they are the only thing you have.

Is your entire identity and happiness dependant on believing Christianity is true? Does the fact that it gives you comfort outweigh the need for your belief to be true?

Most of us ex-christians here have found ways to give our lives meaning and purpose without faith, through actions such as helping to alleviate the suffering of others, bringing children into this world, or small acts of kindness.

 

Everything I treasured as a Christian I can still do so without christianity. I can still appreciate the beauty of nature, I can still feel love and gratitude for family and friends.

 

Myself, 18 months after leaving the church, I have reached the point of no return. I can no longer suppress my critical thinking. I cannot switch off my brain in order to have bliss. The price is too high. The mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance required to believe are not psychologically healthy for me.

 

There is no certainty, and I am now ok with that. I don’t have all the answers and I’m ok with that. In fact, the words “I don’t know” can be incredibly liberating.

 

Walk out into the sunshine, see reality as it truly is. You are free to explore anything without worrying if god will approve.

 

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome @Myrkhoos. You say you are confused but trust me, you are asking the big questions that really matter. Keep asking them, do a lot of reading (there are lots and lots of books mentioned in many places here). Keep looking for the truth. You're going through some turmoil which is completely natural when the process of deconversion begins.

Religious Trauma Syndrome has already been mentioned here, here's some more info if you want to look into it https://journeyfree.org/rts/

I also recommend Marlene Winell's Leaving the Fold to anyone who is going through this, it's a great help in understanding and accepting the process (there are several stages to deconversion and it can take years, everyone is different).

Also, in regards to your views on sexuality. This has more to do with your personality and your preferences and conditioning. Everyone is different in this way in regards to how open they are with their sexuality and their acceptance of that of others. Please also keep in mind that some of this is more than likely affected by your religious conditioning and your views may change over time. Programming ("its vulgar") runs very very deep. What I try to keep in mind is that my views are just that, my views, among millions of others. When you look at it this way you become more accepting of other views and preferences. Just give yourself time in this regard, views and preferences don't change just like that.

Did you know homosexual behaviour is widespread and exists in the animal kingdom? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

So we're not so special after all, let's just say it's part of nature.

 

Ask the questions, continue to grow. That's what I did, and now I'm free.

 

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Thank you for your responses.

 

The deal is that now I am approaching beliefs with full on skepticism. I mean I will not accept views on sexuality JUST because anyone says it is true. Or I don't care how many famous people say it, or anything. Testing and being very reserved on adopting views, even after I adopt them. 

 

I know homosexual behaviour exists in the animal kingdom. And other types of sexual behaviour. But this to me is not proof of anything. And  this is because that animals also have dysfunctions and probably sexual dysfunctions. It depends on how we use the world "natural". Does it mean what exists in nature? Well that just means all of reality. Torture exists, killing exists, wars exists,  in the animal kingdom, that does not mean that they are OK. I said on purpose the argument from anatomy, as in human anatomy because some things appear to be clear. As in the ears are for hearing, the nose is for smelling, eyes for seeing, etc. So there are pre - programmed functions of bodily organs. If they do not functions as per programmed, we consider it to be dys-function. I mean daltonism or seeing just black and white would not be considered normal, or a choice, ori anything, but an impairment. So is the human genitalia. It seems obvious what its function is, at least generally speaking, not with extreme detail. I mean it is clear its that a male penis is made to enter a female vagina, and not an anus, or a mouth, or anything. It is clear that ONLY a woman can breastfeed, because she has breasts.

 

         Please explain to me how one can possibly say that homosexuality is not a biological dysfunction, when it is clear what the human genitalia are for, is clear to a 5 year old, and that they are using those organs in other ways. And any other improper use of those organs, there are a HORDE of sexual deviations. Again, not saying we should do everything our biological impulses tell us to do, that would wreak havoc, but is one thing to admit this simple biological truth, and to say we, as rational beings, decide, because of some reason, to go against this, and to say this is not a biological truth. Because of course, following my argument, contraceptives are also against biological imperatives and a misuse of the organs, and humans do use contraceptives.

 

         My allegiance is to clarity and truth, this is what led to question religion at a great personal cost, and I am no way available to take in another ideology, just because it is in fashion. So my problem would be not with LGBT people practicing their beliefs, it is their insistence that I accept theirs, putting an equal between a heterosexual couple and homosexual one. And even giving laws that say that saying otherwise is discrimination. Bullying and manipulation are despicable, no matter where they come from.  And to make such vile use of the word "love". The misuse of this word is rampant in all world-religions. Who knows, maybe even Hitler did the Holocaust for the "love" of mankind.  To say , but they love each other. What does that mean? Even sexual attraction is biologically meant between males and females in the human race, so it is clear that having sexual attraction for a man is like projection, or brain-misfire. Your brain "thinks" that other person is a woman, not a man, it has some wires confused somewhere. So are not really attracted to the real person, you are attracted to what your brain-misfire thinks he is. If were attracted to a tree and only want to have sexual intercourse with a tree that would be most seriously thought of as wrong. And wrong using of bodily functions CANNOT give good results. It is simple as that. 

 

        Why don't they spend millions and millions fo dollars in TRYING to repair that, or making it better, like with many other genetically dysfunctions? I am sure sex change treatments and operations cost a lot. I am very sorry for them that they have this dysfunction, I am also sorry for myself for having a weak digestive system which easily causes me stomach burn and diahrrea , and that i have -extra cautious about what i eat, or that even tiny amounts of alchohol make me feel nautious. I am sorry for babies born with diformities, of any kind. For any kind of ilness, small or big, light or grave. I can, probably, have a lever of empathy, but to say "it is just diversity" seems as ridicoulous as burning heretics to the stakes. My bone with religion is contradicting reality to fit in their worldview, as I see it. I am not about to just accept other things that to the same thing.   

          Of course, homosexuals, transexuals, swingers, porn actors, prostitutes, gang bangers, etc, can be otherwise very intelligent and good willed, with a lot to offer. That does NOT define who they are or what they can do. But that does make everything ok. Truth is truth, no matter how kind or unkind you are. 

 

           I do NOT think that observing the function of human bodily organs has anything to do bias, or conditioning, even religion for that matter. It is not a matter of cultural prejudice to say I use my nose for smelling and using it to try and chew would be dysfunctional. It is important to distinguish what is cultural conditioning and what is biological conditioning. It is clear that someone who makes a sex change operation goes against his DNA. He still has a XY chromosome. Ok, may in the future technology will give humans control over a lot more. 

 

I could say the same thing, that is because of conditioning and brainwashing that people accept non-normative sexuality. That argument runs both ways. 

 

Of course, humans have toying with nature for a lot of time. I mean if only women were allowed to breastfeed, without the use of technology like bottles or something like that, things with be harder. Not impossible, as so many animals clearly show. 

 

However this thing about "these are just this, my views". On the one hand, yes, but on the other hand, no, I regard somethings that are true, to some extent. Otherwise all people would live in a total individual bubble, in their own reality, if we did not have some basic ground on which to discuss. Communities can exist only if the persons who make it up have similar enough views on what is fundamental. Example, could you live in a community that thinks apostasy from religion deserves murder ( There were and still were those kinds of communities in the world)? And no member one this site could. Views of people do not exist just in their heads, they inform thought and behaviour.

 

 

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The first words that came to mind as I read the above was, SLOW DOWN, AND RELAX!!!  Be sure to continue talk therapy, and take the medications that have been prescribed.  Forget about psychological and biological perfection, and just LET YOURSELF BE WHO YOU ARE, IN THE HERE AND NOW!  

 

Let yourself be an imperfect human being like the rest of us!   THE ANSWERS WILL COME WITH TIME!  

 

If your anxiety is still causing stomach upset, tell your psychiatrist.  If you aren't seeing one, make an appointment ASAP.

 

 

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First,

 

Yes well, I think i did come off as a wee bit aggresive. But I am in mood to be "pressured" in accepting any beliefs anymore. That is a usual tactic by some religious authorities. And sincerely speaking, this issue of gay rights is really being pushed by some part of the public and media and not accepting their claims automatically makes you a "bigot", a "hater", or I something like that. It is exactly the name calling game that many cults use. If you disagree even a bit, you are of the devil. 

 

Second, it depends on what you mean by perfection. Any community has rules of conduct. Not respecting them results in some kind of punishment. If you have more than the legal speed, you will be handed a ticket or a warning. No one will have "tolerance" for your "choice" to pass the limit. In this case, not being "perfect" results in consequences.

15 hours ago, Weezer said:

 

 THE ANSWERS WILL COME WITH TIME!  

 

 

 

 

 This I heard and hear very often in the Church ;)

 

It is somehow ironic to tell someone to forget about biological perfection and accept imperfection and let himself be who he is, and the next thing to recommend them a psychiatrist and therapy. :)     You have just accepted the idea that there are ilnesses that need to be addressed, and "imperfections" that one needs to take care of.  I of course accept this. You would not tell a psychopath to be who he is. And I agree with that

 

I mean, if your liver did not function well and you had hepatic tumor, you would not just "accept imperfection", would you? You would go to a doctor and seek treatment. 

 

That is my point about the nature of the sexual organs and the nervous system. It seems to be that there are sicknesses of the sexual impulse. The most obvious one would be necrophilia. I do not think anyone would deny that that is a dysfunction. My idea is that homosexuality is a dysfunction of the sexual impulse, and it is not a normal variation of the sexual impulse. This seems to be self-evident. I do not need kind of science to see this. It is like seeing that a man with a severed leg is handicaped, and he does simply have a "variation" in the number of limbs. 

 

So, to conclude. I believe that the sexual drive has normal variations, and it has pathological dysfunctions. Like any other human drive for function, or organ for that matter. I believe that normal variations are normal intercourse between a biological male and a female. Anything outside is a pathological dysfunction. And I have too passed this limits, in some minor regards, so I am not making myself the "pure" one. Then again, being sick does mean I do not recognize where health and want to promote it. 

 

I realize what i have said may not sit well with many of you and you may think it is just the religious indoctrination speaking. I believe it is not. Time will tell. I am sorry of this personally offends you, someone close, or my views bring to mind painful experiences. This was not my intention, it is merely the byproduct of any meaningful discussion. 

 

My hope is that this community is open to freely expressing and debating ideas. This I have longed for. So far , it seems so, and I am glad it is. I am not idealizing or setting unrealistic expectations, but the overall feeling is ok. 

 

PS About the digestive problems, I actually a sensitive digestive system from the beginning.. I went to nutritionist ( MD) and I had leaky gut, and several other problems. This plagued from childhood. Careful diet usually solves most, if not all, my problems. bad diet usually makes me easily go off track. Sure the anxiety is a contributing factor, but it is not the only one. Will see how I manage my treatment options. But have to say, I do have a somewhat fear of psychiatrist. I think it is an authority problem.  I did have a bad experience with one that really let it's mark. And heard some stories. People that have the power to declare me mentally deranged and to have me hospitalized kind of scare me. Eventually I did meet some kind people who I do not think would do that, at least, not that easily. It resembles a little the fear I had of priests. I mean having the power over my eternal life. And not obeying was the same as rejecting God himself.  That was and still is extremely frightening. Why would God even give this power to mere mortals subject to all kinds of mistakes?   

 

PPS. Marlene Winnel'd videos and articles proved to be of great help. 

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@Myrkhoos I have no issue with people discussing their opinions here. My only concern is with the language that they use and the impact this can have on others. We aren't discussing animals here, we are discussing people, and sometimes when we take such an objective distanced stance from the issue and those it concerns, we look past the impact that our words can have. Discussing people and their inherent qualities as "sickness" and "dysfunction" can be one such thing. I can definitely see why it would be offensive and hurtful to people. I know this isn't your purpose here, but I am simply pointing out my perspective on it.

Also ponder: is it acceptable to label heterosexual the "norm" just because it occurs to a greater extent in the general population?

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On 1/6/2019 at 2:52 PM, Myrkhoos said:

But I tell you this, if God IS real, and he IS the TRUTH, then me asking and searching and questioning should be something he wants and like. 

 

Welcome Murkhoos. I touched on this the other day. I haven't really been fearful about losing belief. Mainly because of thinking similar to what you've said above.

 

If there is some supreme being ( I don't personally believe that there is), why in the world would that supreme being be offended over honest truth seeking?

 

Even to the extent that truth seeking takes one to atheism? There's no inerrant word of god. The bible falls apart completely as a man made and errant literature. That being the case, what does one have to go by aside from getting out there and seeking truth by whatever means they have to try and obtain it? The bible is obviously human beings grasping at the concept of god more so then auto-writing involuntary everything a supernatural, all-knowing being wrote down through them. The journey obviously goes out beyond the confines of the judeo christian bible and with that, it's particular concepts of god. 

 

An actual omni-everything being would know all of this already and may even be testing everyone on earth to "weed out the wankers." 

 

Imagine if it turned out that the blind believers and sheep of this world were those set aside to be disregarded as celestial ash and waste, and it's the free thinkers who will be hand selected to move forward with some master plan? Sort of a cosmic curve ball.

 

😂

 

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The perfection that leads to anxiety is the perfection that you define for yourself, and find yourself lacking. 

 

You said (sarcastically??) you heard that answers will come with time at church.  There are some truths to be found there, so don't discount everything you learned there.  There are some truths there, mixed with a lot of B.S.

 

Being who you are, and where you are, doesn't mean you have to stay there.  But if you don't understand and accept who and where you are, how will you chart a way out?  

 

Does anyone in your family have symptoms of bipolar, or anxiety disorder?  If you don't understand what those are, look up the definitions.  You may have a chemical inbalance that could be helped with medication.

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Hi, Myrkhoos and welcome!  This is going to be a wonderful journey, don’t you agree?  😊

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