Gematria

[MarieMonteiro]

Hello,

 

This appeared on my facebook, and I would like some opinions from ex Christian on it:  

 

"Daniel 12:11 - And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

This is the past in the past tense, even for Daniel. A little bit of arithmetic from both history and the Qabbalists will validate this fact:

Egyptian exile.......................210
From Exodus to First Temple....480
First Temple.........................210
Babylonian Exile......................70
Second Temple.....................420
---------------------------------
Sub-total..........................1,590

The daily sacrifice was
removed 6 years before the
destruction of the Second
Temple..................................(6)
---------------------------------
Sub-total...........................1,584
Add 1,290 from v. 11............1,290
---------------------------------
Total A..............................2,874
===========================

So, now you may ask, "Why all this arithmetic?" The critical clue is provided by another verse:

Daniel 8:14 - And he said unto me: "Until evening and morning, two thousand and three hundred, and the holy ones shall be exonerated."

Now, the Hebrew word used here for eveningis - erev, and the Hebrew word used here for morning is - boqer. The total numerical value (Gematria) for these two words adds up to 574. So, let's do one more bit of arithmetic:

Gematria of Hebrew "evening"+"morning"................ ...574
Number from Daniel 8:14......................................2,300
--------------------------------------------------------
Total B........................................................2,874
============================================

Behold! Voila! There it is: Total A = Total B."

 

How do you respond to that?...

 

[sdelsolray]

What's up with the yellow text?

 

[MarieMonteiro]

5 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

What's up with the yellow text?

 

 

Ah sorry, it was already like that when I copied it and did not find a way to remove it. I know it's annoying. 

[Aries256]

Yeaaaah cant read that

[MarieMonteiro]

Let me try to put it back in black :

 

 

"Daniel 12:11 - And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

This is the past in the past tense, even for Daniel. A little bit of arithmetic from both history and the Qabbalists will validate this fact: 

 

egyptan exile .... 210

from exodus to first temple .... 480

first temple.... 210

babylonian exile .... 70

second temple .... 420

 

Subtotal : 1590

 

the daily sacrifice was removed 6 years before the destruction of the second temple ..... -6

+ Verse 11 of Daniel .... 1290

 

sub total (1590) - 6 = 1584

1584 + 1290 = 2874

 

total A = 2874

So, now you may ask, "Why all this arithmetic?" The critical clue is provided by another verse:

Daniel 8:14 - And he said unto me: "Until evening and morning, two thousand and three hundred, and the holy ones shall be exonerated."

Now, the Hebrew word used here for eveningis - erev, and the Hebrew word used here for morning is - boqer. The total numerical value (Gematria) for these two words adds up to 574. So, let's do one more bit of arithmetic:

 

gematria of Hebrew word morning + evening .... 574

number from Daniel 8:4 .... 2300
 

Total B = 2874

Behold! Voila! There it is: Total A = Total B."

 

what is going on here is that this person started counting the years from the exile of Jacob to Egypt. Plus she added the numbers Daniel gives in verse 11 AND she removed 6 years because Daniel precises that it is when the daily sacrifice was removed, which happened 6 years before the destruction of the second temple.

 

She then goes to verse 8 and adds the gematria plus the number Daniel gives and tadam, she gets the same result.

 

How do you debunk this thing? What would you say that makes it invalid or not a proof of the inspiration of the Bible? I am a young deconvert and any of those kinds of things raises my anxiety level. 

[florduh]

Not all cultures even used base 10 in their mathematics. Everything changes depending on what base you employ and what information/words you include in your calculations. Numerology superstitions far predate the Hebrews. Gematria is as useless in drawing parallels or conclusions as astrology is. Which planets do you count? When is a birth date; parturition or conception or something else? Same with making a numerology system "work." IOW, you can make numerology, astrology, tea leaves or phrenology "make sense" if you have enough bias and gullibility.

[MarieMonteiro]

18 minutes ago, florduh said:

Not all cultures even used base 10 in their mathematics. Everything changes depending on what base you employ and what information/words you include in your calculations. Numerology superstitions far predate the Hebrews. Gematria is as useless in drawing parallels or conclusions as astrology is. Which planets do you count? When is a birth date; parturition or conception or something else? Same with making a numerology system "work." IOW, you can make numerology, astrology, tea leaves or phrenology "make sense" if you have enough bias and gullibility.

 

Thank you for your answer.

 

I know that if I was rational, those things would not really matter. But I am terrified. I have this "what if", all the time... Especially about Bible codes or gematria. I am afraid that somebody somewhere finds a code or a gematria sooooo precise, that only divine inspiration could justify it. Unfortunately I cannot check that. 

 

Recently I discovered a orthodox Jew, a kabbalist, who believes in Bible code and gematria and that led him to believe in Jesus. Those things freak me out. 

[sdelsolray]

Pure nonsense.

[florduh]

1 minute ago, MarieMonteiro said:

 

Thank you for your answer.

 

I know that if I was rational, those things would not really matter. But I am terrified. I have this "what if", all the time... Especially about Bible codes or gematria. I am afraid that somebody somewhere finds a code or a gematria sooooo precise, that only divine inspiration could justify it. Unfortunately I cannot check that. 

 

Recently I discovered a orthodox Jew, a kabbalist, who believes in Bible code and gematria and that led him to believe in Jesus. Those things freak me out. 

You say you're not rational. If that's the case, rational explanations and facts will have no impact. It seems from your posts that you are desperately looking for some excuse, any excuse, to believe. I think you really do know the religion and its Bible are a load of bollocks but don't want to give it up, so perhaps some professional help could facilitate sorting things out in your mind.

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I still suspect a humongous fungus is among us.

 

I seem to remember a former member who had a connection to messianic judaism and a fondness for numerology.

 

Could be wrong, though; it's happened before.  'bennett many a time, matter of fact.

[MarieMonteiro]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I still suspect a humongous fungus is among us.

 

I seem to remember a former member who had a connection to messianic judaism and a fondness for numerology.

 

Could be wrong, though; it's happened before.  'bennett many a time, matter of fact.

 

I have no clue what is a humongous fungus... If it is some English slang, I am French, so English is not my native tongue. 

 

And why would you think I am humongous fungus? Whatever that means.. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

It seems that former member also had connections to Europe.

 

Still, apologies if I'm wrong.

[MarieMonteiro]

1 hour ago, florduh said:

You say you're not rational. If that's the case, rational explanations and facts will have no impact. It seems from your posts that you are desperately looking for some excuse, any excuse, to believe. I think you really do know the religion and its Bible are a load of bollocks but don't want to give it up, so perhaps some professional help could facilitate sorting things out in your mind.

 

 

Well, that could be the explanation, but that is actually the opposite. I want Christianity to be wrong so much. Not to get too much into details, but I insulted the holy spirit after two years of depression because of Pentecostal teachings that screw me up. Found out about the blasphemy of the holy spirit a few months after I cursed it. Ever since, I am not living anymore, I am anguished and suicidal all day long. So that is why those codes terrify me, because I am very afraid of Christianity being right. 

 

[MarieMonteiro]

7 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

It seems that former member also had connections to Europe.

 

Still, apologies if I'm wrong.

 

You still did not explain what was a humongous fungie, so I still have no clue what is it that you suspect that I am. I'd love to know though, honestly. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, MarieMonteiro said:

 

You still did not explain what was a humongous fungie, so I still have no clue what is it that you suspect that I am. I'd love to know though, honestly. 

Be patient, love.

[MarieMonteiro]

Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Be patient, love.

 

Okay... That was weird. 

[florduh]

2 minutes ago, MarieMonteiro said:

I am very afraid of Christianity being right. 

There is nothing to indicate that it is. It is you who are looking for excuses for the religion to be true despite claiming not wanting it to be so. Please get help because it's making you so miserable. Fretting over whether a particular religion is true or not true is not the basis of your problem, it is a symptom and manifestation.

[TruthSeeker0]

3 hours ago, MarieMonteiro said:

Let me try to put it back in black :

 

 

"Daniel 12:11 - And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

This is the past in the past tense, even for Daniel. A little bit of arithmetic from both history and the Qabbalists will validate this fact: 

 

egyptan exile .... 210

from exodus to first temple .... 480

first temple.... 210

babylonian exile .... 70

second temple .... 420

 

Subtotal : 1590

 

the daily sacrifice was removed 6 years before the destruction of the second temple ..... -6

+ Verse 11 of Daniel .... 1290

 

sub total (1590) - 6 = 1584

1584 + 1290 = 2874

 

total A = 2874

So, now you may ask, "Why all this arithmetic?" The critical clue is provided by another verse:

Daniel 8:14 - And he said unto me: "Until evening and morning, two thousand and three hundred, and the holy ones shall be exonerated."

Now, the Hebrew word used here for eveningis - erev, and the Hebrew word used here for morning is - boqer. The total numerical value (Gematria) for these two words adds up to 574. So, let's do one more bit of arithmetic:

 

gematria of Hebrew word morning + evening .... 574

number from Daniel 8:4 .... 2300
 

Total B = 2874

Behold! Voila! There it is: Total A = Total B."

 

what is going on here is that this person started counting the years from the exile of Jacob to Egypt. Plus she added the numbers Daniel gives in verse 11 AND she removed 6 years because Daniel precises that it is when the daily sacrifice was removed, which happened 6 years before the destruction of the second temple.

 

She then goes to verse 8 and adds the gematria plus the number Daniel gives and tadam, she gets the same result.

 

How do you debunk this thing? What would you say that makes it invalid or not a proof of the inspiration of the Bible? I am a young deconvert and any of those kinds of things raises my anxiety level. 

So none of the big issues are enough for you? Eve eating the apple and all of us being damned because of that? Original sin being called "love"? All the killing and murder done by god in the OT? The evidence that the bible is nothing more than a historical literary work? Have you read people like Bart Ehrman on the Bible? Read about the evidence for and against the existence of Jesus?

Just saying...I think if you had gone through all of this, all the math in the bible and whether it adds up or not...you wouldn't give a damn about it.

[sdelsolray]

1 hour ago, MarieMonteiro said:

 

Well, that could be the explanation, but that is actually the opposite. I want Christianity to be wrong so much. Not to get too much into details, but I insulted the holy spirit after two years of depression because of Pentecostal teachings that screw me up. Found out about the blasphemy of the holy spirit a few months after I cursed it. Ever since, I am not living anymore, I am anguished and suicidal all day long. So that is why those codes terrify me, because I am very afraid of Christianity being right. 

 

 

I will amplify Flordah's earlier recommendation.  Seek appropriate mental health treatment from the secular mental health professional(s) of your own choosing.  Be patient with that treatment.  Do the hard work needed to assist with your awareness of the chemical imbalances(s) in your brain and the treatment of them, whether that treatment involves talk therapy, exercise, medication, diet, mental exercises, exposure of emotional issues, etc.  Knowledge is a good thing.

 

The folks on this forum are not equipped to deal with you mental health issues.

[MarieMonteiro]

8 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

I will amplify Flordah's earlier recommendation.  Seek appropriate mental health treatment from the secular mental health professional(s) of your own choosing.  Be patient with that treatment.  Do the hard work needed to assist with your awareness of the chemical imbalances(s) in your brain and the treatment of them, whether that treatment involves talk therapy, exercise, medication, diet, mental exercises, exposure of emotional issues, etc.  Knowledge is a good thing.

 

The folks on this forum are not equipped to deal with you mental health issues.

 

Thank you for your answer. 

 

I am already being treated (medication, etc). And I am not here to get help for my mental health. But to get opinions on things in the Bible that troubles me, from people who've already been down this road. But thank you anyway. 

[Astreja]

Marie, the best way to reduce and eventually eliminate the stress you're feeling over this is by avoiding material that triggers your fears.  Treat it the same way you would treat an abusive ex-partner:  Go no-contact.  Don't google or bookmark the sites that put you into a frightened "What if it's true?" state.  In time the fear response loses its force, although it may never be 100% gone.

[TruthSeeker0]

55 minutes ago, MarieMonteiro said:

 

Thank you for your answer. 

 

I am already being treated (medication, etc). And I am not here to get help for my mental health. But to get opinions on things in the Bible that troubles me, from people who've already been down this road. But thank you anyway. 

Avoid reading the Bible if it triggers you. And do all you can to get a balanced perspective on the bible - the only way to do that is to read those who are willing to properly critique it. 

[sdelsolray]

53 minutes ago, MarieMonteiro said:

 

Thank you for your answer. 

 

I am already being treated (medication, etc). And I am not here to get help for my mental health. But to get opinions on things in the Bible that troubles me, from people who've already been down this road. But thank you anyway. 

 

Fair enough.  The Bible is literature, albeit a bit disjoined due to the numerous authors, the wide timespan during which the writings were first composed (either from oral traditions, earlier texts or from brand new literary inventions), the subsequent redactions, edits, additions and changes made to the texts, the translations from one language to another and the lack of clarity (i.e., the literal vs. metaphor conundrum).  Add to this the significant writings of later humans who attempt to interpret these texts after the fact of their composition.

 

I would suggest you study other literature, some that does not have all of this baggage.  I can make two suggestions:

 

1)  The Harry Potter Literature.  This body of work is by one author over just two decades.  It contains many themes similar to what are contained in the Bible, but the presentation is much clearer and contains no personal threats.  I find it quite enjoyable and enlightening.  

 

2)  The JRR Tolkien Literature.  This is perhaps the most important literature written in the English language.  A full reading will take some time (several readings over several years) and would include not only the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, but would include The Silmarillion, the Children of Hurin and perhaps other works.  This is very good stuff.  More importantly, none of it injects personal judgment, control, hate, bigotry or specialness.

 

Put more bluntly, spend time with literature other than Biblical literature.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Part of the issue is thinking that the prophecy was real, not inserted later. Part of it is thinking that Jesus was real rather than a convenient literary creation. It's like in Matthew where the writer goes to great lengths to try and show that Jesus fulfilled prophecy, but when one reads the context of the prophecies, the writer of Matthew is shown to be shady at best.

 

For example "Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more" (Jeremiah 31:15) was used to tie Herod's slaughter of babies to an OT prophecy. In context, the prophecy has to do with Israeli children being kidnapped, not killed, and a few verses later Rachel ceases her weeping and rejoices because they are brought back from captivity. Also, there is no record at all that Herod slaughtered babies because of a perceived threat from a baby messiah. Nor are there records of any of the magnificent miracles that Jesus allegedly performed, or anyone of the many who are said to have risen from the dead at his crucifixion.

 

Matthew's writer also invents prophecies like "He will be called a Nazarene". There is no such prophecy.

Mark skips over his birth entirely, and goes straight to his adult life. Odd if there were so many prophecies that he allegedly fulfilled.

Matthew has the family escape to Egypt to avoid Herod, and says this is another prophecy (Hosea 1:1) "Out of Egypt I called my son", which in context is a clear reference to Israel, not Jesus.

Luke skips over the slaughter of children and the escape to Egypt, having Jesus and family go directly to Nazareth.

John also skips the birth and early life of Jesus as though it were not important.

 

If the arithmetic were so significant, it is odd that no NT writer or apostle latched onto it. Wouldn't the Holy Spirit have pointed that out to them? All of these things point to the story of Jesus being a story created by a cult, and increasingly embellished as it became more popular. It's like comparing what we know of Joseph Smith (of the Mormons) from history versus what their church writes about him. Or the writings of the Moonies (Unification Church) about their founder, versus what history tells us. Cults always embellish and invent.

 

I followed and promoted a preacher for 9 years because he seemed to be getting actual physical miracles happening. It took 9 years for me to catch him making up a long involved story, completely from his imagination (I had video showing what really happened). I realized I had been following a minor cult leader, and hadn't questioned because he seemed to be authentic. He was just a good story-teller. That is what started my questioning of "Why would he have to make up stories if the power of God is real?" It still took a year of honest questioning to find my way out of Christianity. The spooky parts still call to me, the songs (even yesterday) pop into my head and want to worship, even as I stare them down internally and sing something else instead. That is part of the emotional/mental conditioning that I had for 30 years, and it takes a long time to weed it out, particularly when I wonder why I felt so many things that seemed to be real. But there is no denying the thousands of flaws in the Bible religions, and the cruel attitude and bloodlust of the Bible god. Reality just doesn't mesh with such a being. Some odd things may seem possible, but the probability of them is smaller than winning the big lottery.

[midniterider]

Consid

22 hours ago, MarieMonteiro said:

Hello,

 

This appeared on my facebook, and I would like some opinions from ex Christian on it:  

 

"Daniel 12:11 - And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

etc etc

 

How do you respond to that?...

 

 

Response: When you count the letters of the word Christian from left to right you get the number 9. When you count the letters in the word douchebag from left to right you also get the number 9. Even if you count from right to left, you still get the number 9 for either word. Kinda creepy, huh? So now we know that there's a lot of douchebaggery

going on with Christians.

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&q=douchebaggery

 

/sarcasm-off

 

I think a serious consideration is that in all dealings with Jesus, the only real exchange happens between people. People will tell you this , that and the other thing about Christianity and try to get you to believe it, but what exactly does Jesus ever do on his own? Nothing. We should all be afraid of Jesus because he's so active in our lives now? Really? He's always gone. Seems like he just isn't really there and never has been. Christians need to shut up and let their savior speak on his own, in person, in reality. He never does that though. WWJD? Nothing, apparently. Christianity is just people scaring people.

 

Maybe unfriend or unsubscribe from these religious nuts on facebook.