Recommended Posts

I guess I have to consider myself lucky, because that kind of shit just doesn't "speak to me" at all. I just generally react in a negative way to  hearing or seeing biblical text. And I won't waste one more minute of my life on that stuff. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Keeping this site online isn't free, so we need your support! Make a one-time donation or choose one of the recurrent patron options by clicking here.



29 minutes ago, midniterider said:

I think a serious consideration is that in all dealings with Jesus, the only real exchange happens between people. People will tell you this , that and the other thing about Christianity and try to get you to believe it, but what exactly does Jesus ever do on his own? Nothing. We should all be afraid of Jesus because he's so active in our lives now? Really? He's always gone. Seems like he just isn't really there and never has been. Christians need to shut up and let their savior speak on his own, in person, in reality. He never does that though. WWJD? Nothing, apparently. Christianity is just people scaring people.

 

I would have given you 50 LIKES for this paragraph...but I only get to click the like button once....so I will verbally give you 50 likes :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NeverHealed52Years said:

 

I would have given you 50 LIKES for this paragraph...but I only get to click the like button once....so I will verbally give you 50 likes :)

 

I wonder why Christians think Jesus is going to do all these wonderful things for us in Heaven once we're dead ... when he makes no appearance while we're alive. I would think that a true believer has to keep squashing this idea down because they kind of know in their heart that the whole thing is baloney.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, midniterider said:

I wonder why Christians think Jesus is going to do all these wonderful things for us in Heaven once we're dead ... when he makes no appearance while we're alive. I would think that a true believer has to keep squashing this idea down because they kind of know in their heart that the whole thing is baloney.

 

That is the favorite pastime of believers, the constant "better plan" to explain away the complete lack of response to prayers regardless of the many promises about ask, seek, knock, don't be afraid little flock he knows what you need before you ask, how many of you though you are evil know how to give good things to your children, blah blah blah. Any time one believer starts to see through the lies, others crowd around and quote Bible verses to keep the myth going that something will actually happen, or it just looks different than what you expected, or alternatively accuse the questioner of doubting God instead of doubting the whole thing has any validity. Without church, more would see through the lies.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/4/2019 at 1:15 PM, MarieMonteiro said:

Let me try to put it back in black :

 

 

"Daniel 12:11 - And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

This is the past in the past tense, even for Daniel. A little bit of arithmetic from both history and the Qabbalists will validate this fact: 

 

egyptan exile .... 210

from exodus to first temple .... 480

first temple.... 210

babylonian exile .... 70

second temple .... 420

 

Subtotal 1590

 

the daily sacrifice was removed 6 years before the destruction of the second temple ..... -6

+ Verse 11 of Daniel .... 1290

 

sub total (1590) - 6 = 1584

1584 + 1290 = 2874

 

total A = 2874


So, now you may ask, "Why all this arithmetic?" The critical clue is provided by another verse:

Daniel 8:14 - And he said unto me: "Until evening and morning, two thousand and three hundred, and the holy ones shall be exonerated."

Now, the Hebrew word used here for eveningis - erev, and the Hebrew word used here for morning is - boqer. The total numerical value (Gematria) for these two words adds up to 574. So, let's do one more bit of arithmetic:

 

gematria of Hebrew word morning + evening .... 574

number from Daniel 8:4 .... 2300
 

Total B = 2874

Behold! Voila! There it is: Total A = Total B."

 

what is going on here is that this person started counting the years from the exile of Jacob to Egypt. Plus she added the numbers Daniel gives in verse 11 AND she removed 6 years because Daniel precises that it is when the daily sacrifice was removed, which happened 6 years before the destruction of the second temple.

 

She then goes to verse 8 and adds the gematria plus the number Daniel gives and tadam, she gets the same result.

 

How do you debunk this thing? What would you say that makes it invalid or not a proof of the inspiration of the Bible? I am a young deconvert and any of those kinds of things raises my anxiety level. 

     The first verse is in days not years.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

     So whoever wrote the post is lying straight away.  The total length varies depending on the length of the year (which could vary if we're talking about a lunar year or solar year or some combination of these).  For now we'll just estimate it at about 3 and half years since we're not entirely certain.  No matter what it's still only days and not years.  We know this since it is explicitly stated in the verse.

 

     Moving to verse 8 it's also in days:

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

     None of this is end times eschatology.  Daniel goes over a bit of stuff but, depending on the section it's going on about Antiochus IV.  He's a major villain to the Jews.  He defiled the temple (this is really where Hanukkah originated from the re-purification of the temple).  The rose up against him with the Maccabean revolt and caused them to become their own nation (for a time).  The books of Maccabees go over this and are worth a read (mainly the first couple and Josephus where he talks of this).

 

     Anyhow, people try to misuse all this for the end times but, like usual, they have to be dishonest about it.  Historically speaking this is all about entirely different timeframes and events.

 

          mwc

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/7/2019 at 12:38 PM, mwc said:
On 1/4/2019 at 4:15 PM, MarieMonteiro said:

Let me try to put it back in black :

 

 

"Daniel 12:11 - And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

 

Yes, this was very dishonest from the outset. Purposely cutting off "one thousand, two hundred, and ninety days," from the verse. 

 

On 1/7/2019 at 12:38 PM, mwc said:

 The first verse is in days not years.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

     So whoever wrote the post is lying straight away.  The total length varies depending on the length of the year (which could vary if we're talking about a lunar year or solar year or some combination of these).  For now we'll just estimate it at about 3 and half years since we're not entirely certain.  No matter what it's still only days and not years.  We know this since it is explicitly stated in the verse.

 

     Moving to verse 8 it's also in days:

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment

 

Quote

The

 Great Disappointment in the Millerite movement was the reaction that followed Baptist preacher William Miller's proclamations that Jesus Christ would return to the Earth by 1844, what he called the Advent. His study of the Daniel 8 prophecy during the Second Great Awakening led him to the conclusion that Daniel's "cleansing of the sanctuary" was cleansing of the world from sin when Christ would come, and he and many others prepared, but October 22, 1844, came and they were disappointed.[1][2][3][4]

These events paved the way for the Adventists who formed the Seventh-day Adventist Church. They contended that what had happened on October 22 was not Jesus' return, as Miller had thought, but the start of Jesus' final work of atonement, the cleansing in the heavenly sanctuary, leading up to the Second Coming.[1][2][3][4]

 

@MarieMonteiro

 

Miller took the 'days' to mean 'years'. It was a whopping failure. Miller is a distant blood relative of mine, BTW. 

 

And the book of Daniel is actually very interesting to dismantle, because the writers give away clues that they were writing in periods much later than the supposed time of Daniel and have better knowledge of history closer to the time they were writing and poorer knowledge and understanding of history the further back to the supposed time of Daniel you go. 

 

This decrypting daniel series is good, I'll post a summary video: 

 

 

 

The long story short is that Daniel wasn't seeing the future at all, at all. That's NOT what any of that is. People have ruined their lives trying to use Daniel and Revelation that way. And yet, nonetheless, some jack off on facebook is still posting BS like this in this day and age. 

 

If you don't want to believe, and don't want to be afraid, simply DON'T be.

 

Every bit of what you're afraid of is complete bullshit.....

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

 

If you don't want to believe, and don't want to be afraid, simply DON'T be.

 

Every bit of what you're afraid of is complete bullshit.....

It's not that simple. For some reason or other I think some of us are the luckier ones...either our brains are more easily convinced of what is the truth, or then we have read and digested enough of what we've read....or then we don't have a need to examine bible verses or give them any power because the book of Genesis itself is enough to discredit the whole thing. Or we don't give a shit because we won't worship evil. Then, there are also mental health issues, which can cause trouble for some people. And some people simply need more time to face the fear down with deconversion.

It really isn't as simple as "I dont want to be afraid, therefore I won't be."

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

It's not that simple.

 

It can be, and that's the point here. 

 

She's scared because someone said something. Every time some one makes a claim that the bible is true she's scared that the bible is or could be true, basically. And she doesn't want it to be. She's asked us to debunk what some jack off on facebook has claimed. So be it. 

 

On 1/7/2019 at 12:38 PM, mwc said:

How do you debunk this thing? What would you say that makes it invalid or not a proof of the inspiration of the Bible? I am a young deconvert and any of those kinds of things raises my anxiety level. 

 

And I have the "good news!" 

 

The "good news" is that her facebook friend never acknowledged that the book of Daniel was written too late to have been written by Daniel, first of all. Shows signs of multiple authorship. If it isn't confounded by trying to use "days" as "years" completely unravels as a prophecy. And shows the author(s) poor understanding of the Babylonian and Persian historical periods, let alone any comprehensive understanding of the future beyond the estimated 160 BCE writing period ascribed to the book. It's not talking about christ nor the second coming of christ, concepts that didn't yet exist at that time. But which many christians try and claim when combining Daniel and Revelation. 

 

@MarieMonteiro what do you think? Do you want to look over the problems with Daniel? 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if I know my safety harness has been inspected, tested, and OSHA approved, I'm still going to be a bit leery about working on structural steel 200 feet above the ground.  Granted, that would fall under the category of instinctual fear for the purposes of self-preservation; but indoctrinated fear, if instilled correctly, becomes akin to instinct.  The best any of us have done, in my view, is to get used to walking on the steel beams through practice.  I'm not sure that comes through simple choice.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Even if I know my safety harness has been inspected, tested, and OSHA approved, I'm still going to be a bit leery about working on structural steel 200 feet above the ground.  Granted, that would fall under the category of instinctual fear for the purposes of self-preservation; but indoctrinated fear, if instilled correctly, becomes akin to instinct.  The best any of us have done, in my view, is to get used to walking on the steel beams through practice.  I'm not sure that comes through simple choice.

It's not our job here the way I see it to be telling people who are dealing with issues or questions in regards to fear, "it's simple, just do it". Just because it might be simple enough for you to overcome when you investigate it doesn't mean it is for others and if you want to claim it should be for everyone because it is for you, you're being judgemental and condescending. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brainwashing is a real thing and often it must be treated by real professionals. When evidence and facts don't dispel unfounded fears, it's time to get deprogrammed by someone who has the tools and skills to do that. Such a service is not available here.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Even if I know my safety harness has been inspected, tested, and OSHA approved, I'm still going to be a bit leery about working on structural steel 200 feet above the ground.  Granted, that would fall under the category of instinctual fear for the purposes of self-preservation; but indoctrinated fear, if instilled correctly, becomes akin to instinct.  The best any of us have done, in my view, is to get used to walking on the steel beams through practice.  I'm not sure that comes through simple choice.

 

It can crack like glass in an instant given the right set of circumstances. Life long pastors suddenly realizing, abruptly over something that finally caught their attention, it's wrong. It isn't actually right after all. Holy shit! 

 

Choice is part of it. Choosing to block out contrary info or choosing to take it in. But we are all walking on steel beams in any case. We carefully wade through information and claims. Fool me once, shame on you! Fool me twice, shame on me! - and all of that general sentiment. 

 

6 hours ago, florduh said:

Brainwashing is a real thing and often it must be treated by real professionals. When evidence and facts don't dispel unfounded fears, it's time to get deprogrammed by someone who has the tools and skills to do that. Such a service is not available here.

 

 

If that's the case (like it has been with several others recently) then I suppose the conversation isn't worth having. And I agree that we ought to refer this issue to professionals. That's not what we do here. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you everybody for all your comments.

 

I would tend to agree with @TruthSeeker0 on this. I have been reading some testimonies, and some people just leave the faith without looking back, some others remain in fear for years. I wish I could be of the first group of people, but I have been struggling so much, that I believe I am part of the latter group, unfortunately. Hence I am helped professionally, but it'll be a process. Hopefully I'll reach your level of certainty soon. 

 

I have been reading about Daniel, and I have been looking into this gematria. But what got me out of the doubt for this, is simply that the calendar the person used is the Jewish one, which is defective. So that solves it. 

 

Anyway thank you all for your advices, I appreciate. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, MarieMonteiro said:

I have been reading about Daniel, and I have been looking into this gematria. But what got me out of the doubt for this, is simply that the calendar the person used is the Jewish one, which is defective. So that solves it. 

 

That sounds like progress! 

 

You should check out the entire Daniel series from the youtube channel I posted. Just take it all in and see what you make of it. The Jewish calendar issue is the tip of the ice burg as far as that goes. And if you're clearly understanding and accepting that, I don't see any reason that you couldn't also understand and accept all of the rest of the similar points that go along with it. That IS what we do around here. We analyze christianity and the bible from technical angles as part of encouraging ex christians along the way. 

 

Temper the intellectual issues with the professional emotional help and you may start seeing something in the way of positive progress towards where you're telling us you'd like to be. 

 

7 hours ago, MarieMonteiro said:

I have been reading some testimonies, and some people just leave the faith without looking back, some others remain in fear for years. I wish I could be of the first group of people, but I have been struggling so much, that I believe I am part of the latter group, unfortunately. Hence I am helped professionally, but it'll be a process. Hopefully I'll reach your level of certainty soon. 

 

Hopefully you don't find my speaking with conviction offensive. But the bottom line is that christianity is largely false where the relevant points are concerned. It's an issue which turns out to be very simple, but which people tend to make very complex, unnecessarily mind you. And that should be "good news" to someone who just wants to be done with it and let it go. It's wrong. Wrong is wrong. It's not going to suddenly become right when it's this wrong. When people claim it's right, challenge them. They'll fail. If you bring claims like this here they will be deconstructed and debunked. If you bring the people who make claims like this here, the same will occur. 

 

That's part of the overall theme of encouraging ex christians. And it's the part or aspect that comes with strong conviction. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

It can crack like glass in an instant given the right set of circumstances. Life long pastors suddenly realizing, abruptly over something that finally caught their attention, it's wrong. It isn't actually right after all. Holy shit! 


Choice is part of it. Choosing to block out contrary info or choosing to take it in. But we are all walking on steel beams in any case. We carefully wade through information and claims.

 

 

 

"Given the right circumstances" is a far cry from the "Just do it" bravado of your previous post.  A person deathly afraid of heights might do just fine on an airplane at 30,000 feet; because there's a floor under their feet, a roof over their head... a general sense of normalcy. 

 

Is choice a factor?  Well, the person certainly chose to get on the airplace; but take the bottom out from under them and there will be nothing left but instinct (in the form of fear; and without the benefit of conscious decision).

 

Surely that's the point.  Many of us walk the beams without ever really feeling, or realizing the fear.  Many of us choose to walk despite the fear.  Some will never be able to walk without the crippling tingle at the base of their spines.  The one thing we have in common is that few of us chose to climb up onto the beams ourselves.  We just realized, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, that we were up there.

 

But that first sensation, when the blindfold was  removed and we realized how far we were from safety, how precarious our situation... that sensation stays with many of us for time immeasurable, irrespective of what other choices we may or may not make.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

You should check out the entire Daniel series from the youtube channel I posted. Just take it all in and see what you make of it. The Jewish calendar issue is the tip of the ice burg as far as that goes. And if you're clearly understanding and accepting that, I don't see any reason that you couldn't also understand and accept all of the rest of the similar points that go along with it. That IS what we do around here. We analyze christianity and the bible from technical angles as part of encouraging ex christians along the way. 

 

I will, thank you! I have read a few things already about dating etc. I am digging in the old testament just now, I was more focused on the new until recently. But I will have a look at the YouTube channel you sent.

 

32 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

Hopefully you don't find my speaking with conviction offensive. But the bottom line is that christianity is largely false where the relevant points are concerned. It's an issue which turns out to be very simple, but which people tend to make very complex, unnecessarily mind you. And that should be "good news" to someone who just wants to be done with it and let it go. It's wrong. Wrong is wrong. It's not going to suddenly become right when it's this wrong. When people claim it's right, challenge them. They'll fail. If you bring claims like this here they will be deconstructed and debunked. If you bring the people who make claims like this here, the same will occur.

 

No offense, don't worry. I understand that for somebody who has the mental skills to get out easily, it might sound weird that somebody else struggles so much. It's like with everything else, for example, I have a very good memory, and I have difficulties to understand how some people cannot memorise anything. Same thing. But thank you for all your advices anyway. 

And that's what I appreciate with this site, is that many things are being debunked, it's great for people like me who are in the process. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/8/2019 at 9:46 PM, Joshpantera said:

The long story short is that Daniel wasn't seeing the future at all, at all. That's NOT what any of that is. People have ruined their lives trying to use Daniel and Revelation that way. And yet, nonetheless, some jack off on facebook is still posting BS like this in this day and age. 

 

If you don't want to believe, and don't want to be afraid, simply DON'T be.

 

Every bit of what you're afraid of is complete bullshit.....

 

I'll reevaluate what I said, because I'm not sure why it's become an issue deemed worthy of dragging out this far. 

 

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

"Given the right circumstances" is a far cry from the "Just do it" bravado of your previous post.  A person deathly afraid of heights might do just fine on an airplane at 30,000 feet; because there's a floor under their feet, a roof over their head... a general sense of normalcy. 

 

Marie is telling us that she wants to be part of group A, those who are not afraid and don't look back, basically. That's the desired result. I show how Daniel is not about predicting the future, give some tips, and then tail end it with saying "just do it." The risk is not high, christianity is wrong with a high level of confidence, don't be afraid, walk on out to the rest of us. She doesn't have to be afraid of christianity being right. There's some context here. What she's afraid of (christianity being right) is bullshit, demonstrable bullshit. 

 

The context is whether there's any chance that christianity is right. 

 

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

But that first sensation, when the blindfold was  removed and we realized how far we were from safety, how precarious our situation... that sensation stays with many of us for time immeasurable, irrespective of what other choices we may or may not make.

 

That's too bad. Another example of what damages christianity (a false belief system) can do to people. My advice to those people is the same as the above. Pick your heads up and pull yourself out of it. No one can do that for you, you have to make that decision on your own and follow it through. Like going on a diet, exercising, or any other mental and life change that people do all the time and move forward with. Changing the former way in which they once thought. There can be fear involved in dieting. So what? You either push through the fear factors or live a victim to it. That's another analogy. You might fear giving in to food. Again, so what? You have to work at it, keep pushing through. Unless you don't want the end result. 

 

In this case the desired result is group A. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/10/2019 at 8:37 AM, MarieMonteiro said:

No offense, don't worry. I understand that for somebody who has the mental skills to get out easily, it might sound weird that somebody else struggles so much. It's like with everything else, for example, I have a very good memory, and I have difficulties to understand how some people cannot memorise anything. Same thing. But thank you for all your advices anyway. 

And that's what I appreciate with this site, is that many things are being debunked, it's great for people like me who are in the process. 

 

Ok thanks. I just wanted to hear from you whether or not this is too offensive a direction to take. Because this isn't about any one else, it's your thread about your thoughts and feelings at this time. I was just reading the thread and trying to help out where I thought the meat of the matter with Daniel can be located and discussed. I gotta tell you, deconstructing the bible like this can be a real eye opener.

 

And I'm not surprised that it takes time to digest. That's actually very normal. My abrupt statement was more the case of cutting to the conclusion up front. The conclusion or happy ending, is that you don't need to be afraid about it. It's wrong. Now understanding that conclusion very well can take time, but that doesn't change the conclusion. And perhaps knowing that in advance might give you some added confidence in doing the leg work and finding out the details. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone still wonder why we don't offer mental health counseling here?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've seen this scenario play out many times here. Someone has an unreasonable and unfounded fear of some Biblical hogwash and seeks a good debunking of the claim. If the resulting facts are accepted and that fear laid to rest (though that's not always the case) they then dig up some other "information" on YouTube or somewhere and have a whole new fear to present us for debunking. This is a mental problem, not a lack of knowledge or reason. Such people continue to search for something to be scared by, much like an alcoholic hanging out at a bar to prove he's free of his addiction. The only useful advice in such cases, in my estimation, would be to stop looking for trouble and possibly seek professional help. Obviously, nobody chooses to remain frightened or unhappy.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, florduh said:

I've seen this scenario play out many times here. Someone has an unreasonable and unfounded fear of some Biblical hogwash and seeks a good debunking of the claim. If the resulting facts are accepted and that fear laid to rest (though that's not always the case) they then dig up some other "information" on YouTube or somewhere and have a whole new fear to present us for debunking. This is a mental problem, not a lack of knowledge or reason. Such people continue to search for something to be scared by, much like an alcoholic hanging out at a bar to prove he's free of his addiction. The only useful advice in such cases, in my estimation, would be to stop looking for trouble and possibly seek professional help. Obviously, nobody chooses to remain frightened or unhappy.

 

Yes, I agree. Youtube or the internets in general means you went looking for it. Facebook or other social media, not so much. But like you said, dont hang out at bars if you stopped drinking, so block Christian weirdos or unfriend them or dont even get on social media if you dont 'really' want to see fearful Christian baloney. If someone really has something important to say to you personally then they will call you on the phone. If not, then it was just unimportant social media garbage.

 

If the Daniel baloney that the OP posted seriously causes fear, get some help from someone who is trained to do that.

  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now