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Fuego

Re-visiting phenomena from church days

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I'm starting to re-visit the odd energy and voice things I experienced as a believer. I'm trying to examine the "what really happened and why" of them, since now I know the causation was not the god of the Bible, holy spirit, etc.

Some of the things I felt came while I was alone, others when I was with a handful of believers, others when I was in a large auditorium of believers.

 

I've described them at length previously, but it may be good to re-post them.

 

1. The first I can recall happened when I was still part of the Nazarene church, or in transition to a somewhat Baptist church. I was seriously considering marrying a lady. I was jobless, in school, living in my parent's apartment (house had an attached apartment), devoted to church, and one day while in the apartment was praying out loud. I got on my knees and asked specifically "Should I marry ____?" Immediately I heard "No."

This being my first ever response, I had a reaction of initial "Wow". I said "Ok, don't be mad but I have to ask that again just to check. Should I.."  "NO!"

I said "Ok, nuff said, it's over."

I've wondered sometimes if my dad overheard me and responded through the vent in the floor. If so, he never let on. But it sounded like it was right in my ear, like someone sitting right there with me.

 

2. I was at the Baptist church, had a female friend that was part of our little singles group, and she was dating a guy that avoided us at all cost. That raised my suspicions. I wanted to know why (a long time later learned he was in a protection program). But it was clear that my lady friend wasn't behaving much like a believer, going camping alone with him. I thought he was corrupting her (a big deal for fundamentalists), but learned later that this wasn't her first rodeo and that I was rather naive. I was in prayer and fasting, trying to figure out what was going on with them, and was aghast that her parents were ok with the situation since they were elders in the church. I felt like I was in a storm of emotion. I went into the church one Sunday, sat down and immediately a voice spoke to me (just like in #1) "She's at his house now with him in bed". Very clear and to the point. I called her and talked to her about it and learned a lot about her (and my naivete). The point here is the voice. I had no way of knowing the details, but the voice did.

 

3. My wife and I went to England to hear an American missionary preacher. We'd seen a video series of him talking to the Brownsville School about his experiences with miracles. He wore blue jeans and cowboy boots, and spoke first of his failures. That impressed me. He seemed legit, going to the extremely poor Mexican indians out in the boonies, not making much money, and being ultra-committed to the gospel. He spoke about raising the dead, and many other outstanding miracles that god did, apparently because they were so submitted to his will. During the services in England, I felt power coursing through my body, like a stretched out Slinky toy given a twang. The power zipped up and down through my body, and focused on the "sacral chakra" area of the abdomen, like a ball of lightning. My wife described the same experience without me saying anything, so I had a direct confirmation of the same physical sensation. My hands began to tremble in the classic "Quaker" or "Shaker" caricature of hands raised and trembling. This all seemed to be a direct confirmation that the spirit of god was really present and validated what this preacher was claiming. [fast forward 9 years of me promoting him worldwide, I discovered him making up a long detailed story about a coven of witches at a German church, this started me questioning why he would have to make up anything, and then started me questioning Christianity after about a year of seeking answers.]

 

4. There were times I laid hands on my wife and her sinus blockage cleared instantly.

 

5. There were times where I would be in worship at our house and the "presence" of god seemed tangible, even to my wife.

 

6. There was a prayer time with a handful of others where it felt like a door over my head had been opened and heat was pouring down on me. I looked up and a lady there was quickly fanning her face because she felt it also, and there was no vent or anything over us.

 

7. At a church gathering where the missionary from #3 was speaking, we were gathered in the foyer prior to the doors opening. A lady was going along the line doing silly things to each person. Turns out she is a clown by trade and was doing this to bring joy to people, though several though she was a weirdo. It was really chafing my sense of propriety for the gathering, and I was building up a boatload of anger ready to blast her when I heard the voice again for the last time "Don't be mean to her". I describe the effect like an old TV set being turned off. The picture turns into a little dot first then blips out. That was my anger being blipped off, because in my being it was clear who spoke to me.

 

So I've been trying to figure out if the voice was another part of me or what it was. I know from my dreams that my subconscious was pretending to be god, and that I was treating other parts of my subconscious like the devil. It is a very creative "being". I've wondered about the power that sadly seemed to confirm the reality of the bible god, but now that I know that god isn't real, I'm left wondering what that power was all about. The Hindus have a "kundalini" experience that they say is our part of god zipping up through the spine through each chakra to meet god above and then come back down, and that this experience is often emotionally traumatic or extremely powerful and life-changing. I'm curious if the power was linked somehow to the group intention, the group energy, or what it was really. I've heard some dismiss it as group hypnosis, and on some level that could have validity since hypnosis and the subconscious are linked.

 

But since my deconversion, I've had no such experiences, other than in a crystal shop feeling something like "mom" or "home" energy, very at peace in one particular spot (where the witchcraft books were). I read a lot about witchcraft but ultimately it didn't have a draw for me, though the concepts of nature-based cycles and the connection of life between beings, plants and fungi seems very important to me. I've wondered if I could re-create the worship energy, but I have nothing to worship. So I wonder at it, and post this for your feedback. I'm also going to mention it to some orthodox Jews and Hindus I know to see what they think about it.

 

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On 1/13/2019 at 12:20 AM, Fuego said:

So I've been trying to figure out if the voice was another part of me or what it was. I know from my dreams that my subconscious was pretending to be god, and that I was treating other parts of my subconscious like the devil. It is a very creative "being".

 

Have you read any of the other threads in here about consciousness in this section? We have several. The idealist impression is that consciousness is something that's primary, the material universe arising from it. The sub conscious mind in communication with the whole and that sort of thing. That's one avenue of exploration which doesn't amount to the bible god, but could explain a good deal of the "unexplained." 

 

And whether getting into idealist pantheism, panpsychism and that sort of thing, or just a regular secular and materialistic scientific view, it would have to be you making the voices in some way, maybe your dad in the one instance. But since it's not limited to possibly your dad, it would have to be something more than just that. If you look at my Psi-ence thread, is goes into what I've reading from Dean Radin PhD about psi phenomenon. The scientific evidence for "theurgy," (spirits and gods basically) does have some basis in testing, but it can not be distinguished from people doing it themselves with their own minds through consciousness. The subconscious mind is capable of quite a bit, apparently. So I think you're on the right track to figuring this thing out with that explanation. 

 

On 1/13/2019 at 12:20 AM, Fuego said:

The Hindus have a "kundalini" experience that they say is our part of god zipping up through the spine through each chakra to meet god above and then come back down, and that this experience is often emotionally traumatic or extremely powerful and life-changing. I'm curious if the power was linked somehow to the group intention, the group energy, or what it was really. I've heard some dismiss it as group hypnosis, and on some level that could have validity since hypnosis and the subconscious are linked.

 

Words like god are used, yes, but more importantly Brahman is more like impersonal, pure consciousness. When you hear about god in that context, it's consciousness they're referring to. Very different than the bible god. This primal consciousness, would technically be the god above and beyond the bible god. When dealing with group energy, it's unavoidable to take notice of the fact that it's a group "consciousness" energy we're looking at. So this chakra business is squarely concerned with experiencing levels of consciousness, and theistic thinkers refer to that as, "god." 

 

On 1/13/2019 at 12:20 AM, Fuego said:

But since my deconversion, I've had no such experiences, other than in a crystal shop feeling something like "mom" or "home" energy, very at peace in one particular spot (where the witchcraft books were). I read a lot about witchcraft but ultimately it didn't have a draw for me, though the concepts of nature-based cycles and the connection of life between beings, plants and fungi seems very important to me. I've wondered if I could re-create the worship energy, but I have nothing to worship. So I wonder at it, and post this for your feedback. I'm also going to mention it to some orthodox Jews and Hindus I know to see what they think about it.

 

It sounds like you're naturally inclined to a spiritual attitude towards life and existence in general. I always have been too. Even though I don't believe in gods. It can remain in the absence of god belief. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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You can speculate endlessly as to what this was.  I tend to the rather practical approach of "might be this, might be that; either way it's an experience and an experience is a thing and is a reality, regardless of its' source".

So, what "really" happened, whether in any one instance or, if a general explanation is capable of formulation, overall, is probably less important than what these experiences mean to you.

Regardless of whether you see this as a voice of your own consciousness or something external, regardless of whether you see it as hallucinatory, psychological or something else entirely, the point remains that you had these experiences then and you don't now.

That tells me that, potentially, you have the capacity to tap into a highly intuitive form of awareness, but the circumstances that permit, or, at least, facilitate that, no longer exist.

Can you re-create those circumstances outside of Christian beliefs?

I suspect so.  Your description of the crystal shop incident suggests that it is possible.  It may be as simple as trying to catch the right ambience.

Always assuming you want to go that route, of course.

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On 1/12/2019 at 9:20 PM, Fuego said:

I'm starting to re-visit the odd energy and voice things I experienced as a believer. I'm trying to examine the "what really happened and why" of them, since now I know the causation was not the god of the Bible, holy spirit, etc.

 

 

 

I remember having out of body experiences and some lucid dreams prior to becoming a Christian. As a Christian I felt euphoria at times while reading the bible and singing in the choir. I can achieve something similar to the Christian euphoria without religious intervention. With lots of effort I can manage on OBE or lucid dream. :)

 

There are probably more explanations than just :1) Supernatural Jesus or 2) Materialist Hallucination. There may be supernatural causes, but aren't necessarily Jesus. And if our material world exists inside a non-physical universal consciousness....that could make things more interesting...and confusing. lol.

 

There are people who work hard at mentally creating a sub-personality imaginary friend in their head (see tulpa). Maybe yours just comes naturally at moments but only let's you know it's there with a word or two then disappears back into your subconscious the rest of the time.

 

I was raised by two people who thought gods, ghosts and spirits were baloney and so I dont recall having any experiences of ghosts or disembodied voices speaking to me. If I was raised by a psychic maybe I'd be hearing all sorts of voices. :)

 

I hope you can make sense of whatever it is/was.

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