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10 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

Genesis 1 establishes that the Bible does not start off literal and does not give us any real time description of origins.

 

Not sure what you mean that Genesis doesn't start off literal...   

 

Especially considering that "the beginning" is about as literal as one can describe the point that something which did not exist comes into existence.  However, the doctrine of scientism might sound better in claiming that the age of the known and observed universe is literally 13.8 billions year old, yet that in itself doesn't contradict the scriptural representation that the universe had a beginning but it does beg the question as to whether .... 

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16 minutes ago, Justus said:

 

Not sure what you mean that Genesis doesn't start off literal...   

 

Especially considering "the beginning" is about as literal as one can describe the point that something which did not exist comes into existence.  However, the doctrine of scientism might sound better in claiming that the  age of  the known and observed universe is literally 13.8 billions year old, it doesn't contradict the scriptural representation that the universe had a beginning but it does beg the question as to whether .... 

 

There's no literal beginning for the universe, that's one of the many points. Science has at times theorized about a beginning, but those theories are not fixed and have changed considerably as time goes on. So the bible claims a beginning, science has theorized about the possibility of beginning, but has not concluded on it. That's where WLC is incorrect with his claims. 

 

 

Thanks for Joining, Weezer. Welcome to the site. 



 

You're having a lot of thoughts and ideas that I know I've had and have heard some others express as well. These can be natural thoughts and ideas when leaving behind christianity and looking for answers. Actually, what got me into splitting hairs and analyzing Genesis so closely was exactly what you're talking about. For a moment I thought that it loosely mirrored evolution. Just off the top of my head I saw life emerging from the sea to land in a general sense and started wondering if maybe this was some sort of code or symbolism that told us the truth. 

 

Now upon thinking that, I dove in and started reading the creation account as literal as possible. When I did that, I quickly realized that the order is actually completely wrong. Light is created and 3 days take place before the sun, moon, and stars. Grass is growing a day before the sun, moon, and stars. So the days are not literal, the order of creation is not literal, and if we're temped to say it's symbolic for a time period longer than days, then we face the glaring problem of thousands to millions of years going by before the creation of sun, moon, and stars on the fourth symbolic "day." These conservative and liberal interpretations both go out the window, just like that.

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5 hours ago, ag_NO_stic said:

 

Yeah, I noticed that with my dad too. I've had people mention to me that my wedding disturbed them with the whole "submit" thing that was stressed. My dad is pissed at my husband because, in my dad's opinion, "She would never have left if I'd still been in charge." Like I can't fucking think for myself.

 

Now I've confused myself again lol. I wonder if I'm sensitive to my intentions being misunderstood, not what people actually think about me or something...? It's like I have separated critique of my ideas from critique of ME. I don't give a flyin crap if someone disagrees with my opinion on something....it eats me alive to think about someone thinking I'm being unreasonable, a jerk, irrational, any other kind of negative label etc just because I'm not explaining my side well. I am like the epitome of nice intentions.........Weird. 

 

Sorry for the quick therapy session detour, y'all. Greetings! xD

 

That is what gets to me as well, what people might conclude about my character based on my beliefs. And that is completely unfair because my non belief itself doesn't determine my character. But tell that to the "atheists are..." crowd of brainwashed fundies.

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From William's reply regarding the Lions Den, I think he may be literally afraid to go there.  I wasn't going to say the following on this thread, but have decided to do so. 

 

William, I am not sure you are mentally stable.  Either that, or you are one of the best B.S.ing "game" players I have seen.  Which ever it is I am not communicating further with you until you answer the questions (1) Why you are here on this forum?  (2)  answer the questions in the Lions Den that are ask of Christian Apologist. 

 

I haven't kept count, but you seem to avoid answering almost all the questions ask of you.  No more games for me.

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5 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

There's no literal beginning for the universe, that's one of the many points.


That is like saying that was no literal birth of Jesus, since he is believed to be eternal. 

However, If there is no literal beginning of the universe then that would mean the universe and all things within, whether living or non-living would have literally always existed.  Since that which has always existed would not change in nature or form, then it could only be reasonably expected that it would exist forever without end.  Unfortunately,  the universe itself reflects it's own finite nature from that which is known and observed within its own physical existence.   And in such, the mortal nature of  all living things which are known and observed within this physical world  clearly demonstrates that any living thing which has a beginning of its existence will have an end of its existence as a living thing. 

 

But then again it is written  that the birth of Jesus was on this wise:  😉

 

6 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

Science has at times theorized about a beginning, but those theories are not fixed and have changed considerably as time goes on.

 

At times?   

 

Science would not theorize about the beginning of the universe unless sufficient reason existed to pursue that line of inquiry.  However the reason those theories are not fixed and are altered considerably is due to the actual beginning of the physical world would contradict the Church doctrine of the eternal universe.   

Quote

 

A Mathematical Proof That The Universe Could Have Formed Spontaneously From Nothing

Cosmologists assume that natural quantum fluctuations allowed the Big Bang to happen spontaneously.

 Now they have a mathematical proof                                                                                                                                                                                 

One important factor in today’s models of the universe is called the cosmological constant. This is a term that describes the energy density of the vacuum of space. It was originally introduced by Einstein in his 1917 general theory of relativity and later abandoned by him after Hubble’s discovery that the universe was expanding. 

Until the 1990s, most cosmologists assumed that the cosmological constant was zero. But more recently, cosmologists have found evidence that something is causing the expansion of the universe to accelerate, implying that the cosmological constant cannot be zero. So any new theory of the universe must allow for a non-zero value of the cosmological constant.

Ref: arxiv.org/abs/1404.1207 : Spontaneous Creation Of The Universe From Nothing

Source: https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/a-mathematical-proof-that-the-universe-could-have-formed-spontaneously-from-nothing-ed7ed0f304a3

 

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@Justus, the material posted in the article above was discussed in the thread JP linked to from the science subforum. I'd suggest having alook at that thread before pursuing this discussion further.

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8 hours ago, Justus said:

However, If there is no literal beginning of the universe then that would mean the universe and all things within, whether living or non-living would have literally always existed

 

Yes, I linked you to the discussion of the cosmological theory. It's the source material that would have always existed, not everything in the universe in it's current form of course.

 

Here's a couple of videos that explains the issue of where science and 'creation ex nihilo' are not very

compatible: 

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Justus said:

Spontaneous Creation Of The Universe From Nothing

 

Creation from Nothing, is just a figure of speech where science is concerned and not to be taken "literally." Again, digest the two videos above. If it still doesn't make sense, I will continue to try and explain. 

 

Thanks

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"Since that which has always existed would not change in nature or form, then it could only be reasonably expected that it would exist forever without end. "

 

(Biblical) Assumption. ^^

 

Why is it necessary for something eternal to also be in a fixed form or nature? How boring that would be :) I bet the eternal expresses itself in continuous, ever-changing variety.

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I see only one appropriate fate for our disingenuous interlocutor.

 

I am strongly of the opinion that Real Life™ should slap William around mercilessly and without surcease until he completely and permanently loses his faith.  Then and only then will he be in a position to understand us.

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5 minutes ago, Astreja said:

I see only one appropriate fate for our disingenuous interlocutor.

 

I am strongly of the opinion that Real Life™ should slap William around mercilessly and without surcease until he completely and permanently loses his faith.  Then and only then will he be in a position to understand us.

 

You want him to suffer, big-time?  Seriously?  If that’s the choice I’d prefer that he not understand us.

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9 minutes ago, ThereAndBackAgain said:

 

You want him to suffer, big-time?  Seriously?  If that’s the choice I’d prefer that he not understand us.

god never gives us more than we can bear.  😎

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8 minutes ago, ThereAndBackAgain said:

 

You want him to suffer, big-time?  Seriously?  If that’s the choice I’d prefer that he not understand us.

 

Point taken.  I guess I've reached a point where particularly snotty types of evangelism bring out the worst in me, and I can no longer give that person even a whiff of a benefit of a doubt.

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Lion's Den Rules

Attention "True Christians™" and former Christians. 

This is the section of the board where Christian opinions, arguments, sermons and so on will be more-or-less tolerated. Aggressive evangelism is permitted in this section, but aggressive evangelists should be ready to be met by equally aggressive resistance. 

An occasionally heated response is allowed and sometimes even encouraged. However, all posters to the Lion's Den are still expected to adhere the general rules of decorum as delineated in the Forum Guidelines. In other words, conversations in the Lion's Den are intended to be permissively unrestrained without devolving into repetitious verbal abuse. Those who are identified as repeatedly abusive -- in this section or any section of this website -- may be suspended or banned from posting without notice. 

Note: In view of the fiery nature of the discussions which occur in the Lion's Den, only those with a fairly thick skin should participate.

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51 minutes ago, Astreja said:

 

Point taken.  I guess I've reached a point where particularly snotty types of evangelism bring out the worst in me, and I can no longer give that person even a whiff of a benefit of a doubt.

I understand, I really do. I can get nasty, in particular with those who cling to Calvinist traditions. But I try to be kind, in that for the most part, if they're not being too in my face about it, I keep the thoughts to myself. I do understand that many of us on this site have these reactions and I do not think we are completely unjustified either, when it is them who have come to play in our space and they should be aware of what they are getting themselves into.

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1 hour ago, ThereAndBackAgain said:

 

You want him to suffer, big-time?  Seriously?  If that’s the choice I’d prefer that he not understand us.

My perspective: this world would be a better place if we were all given equal opportunity with the suffering thing. For one thing, there would be a helluva lot more empathy and understanding to go around. It may be an unpopular perspective, but suffering has tangible benefits.

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I think what I'm striving for is to shake people out of their smugly naive "God is there for me" complacency.  It comes across as a massive retconning of reality:  From an Ex-C perspective, prayer isn't doing anything tangible but the still-believer is putting the hits on a pedestal and rationalizing away or ignoring the many misses.

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28 minutes ago, Astreja said:

I think what I'm striving for is to shake people out of their smugly naive "God is there for me" complacency.  It comes across as a massive retconning of reality:  From an Ex-C perspective, prayer isn't doing anything tangible but the still-believer is putting the hits on a pedestal and rationalizing away or ignoring the many misses.

Many can't. They are stuck in the misconception that they won't be able to deal with reality like responsible adults, once god is out of the picture. Thus, they remain children in this manner. Hell, its all in the christian lingo, it does nothing but encourage it.

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On 1/23/2019 at 7:55 PM, Weezer said:

From William's reply regarding the Lions Den, I think he may be literally afraid to go there.  I wasn't going to say the following on this thread, but have decided to do so. 

 

William, I am not sure you are mentally stable.  Either that, or you are one of the best B.S.ing "game" players I have seen.  Which ever it is I am not communicating further with you until you answer the questions (1) Why you are here on this forum?  (2)  answer the questions in the Lions Den that are ask of Christian Apologist. 

 

I haven't kept count, but you seem to avoid answering almost all the questions ask of you.  No more games for me.

 

That must be it. Do you charge by the half hour, hour, etc. So you accept popular insurance coverage to pay for our time together?

 

5 hours ago, Astreja said:

I am strongly of the opinion that Real Life™ should slap William around mercilessly and without surcease until he completely and permanently loses his faith.  Then and only then will he be in a position to understand us.

 

Are you a natural born prick or do you have to work at it? I've been spit on, stabbed, shot at and even experienced post traumatic stress disorder. Boo hoo, no one relates to me. I've loved and I have been crushed by the very same love. I've experienced death and the miracles of new life now times 6. I've departed a family home by an abusive father, had broken bones, stitches, and concussions, departed and lived under a bridge, in my own house, lost everything, and recently rebuilt. I've experienced the happiness of raising a family, seeing it destroyed as well ripped apart, and experienced the joys of seeing it reunited once again. Excuse me if I don't live the bitterness you demonstrate. Do you really think that what other men think about me or how they doubt me is going to affect me? Lemme clue you in, if you can gird up your loins when everyone else doubts you including yourself you just may one day be a Man my son.

 

I'd like to know how you define reality especially ultimate reality.

 

4 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I understand, I really do. I can get nasty, in particular with those who cling to Calvinist traditions.

 

I actually haven't read any indication that you understand Calvinism. Your use of "tradition" actually is a tell tale. Wow, you typed out Calvinism. Do you think you're going to grasp a theological term which umbrellas various doctrine in a few hours, days, weeks, months, years, which took millenniums to develop? Please tell me about how much you don't know.

 

2 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Many can't. They are stuck in the misconception that they won't be able to deal with reality like responsible adults, once god is out of the picture. Thus, they remain children in this manner. Hell, its all in the christian lingo, it does nothing but encourage it.

 

Gee, you have it all figured out. Lemme clue you in there's a difference between the capital G in God and lower case g in god. They mean two different things. If you're going to direct your lack of knowledge on a subject at least direct it to the right entity.

 

I'll leave ya'll to boil and fester for a bit. Then I'll come back to stir up the hornet's nest. 😎

 

Maybe I'll be back Monday, I like your guys sarcasm, maybe you guys (those I quoted) should have sarcasm Mondays, that ways it'll limit your sarcasm down to only one day a week!

 

Get a life!

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37 minutes ago, Christforums said:

 

That must be it. Do you charge by the half hour, hour, etc. So you accept popular insurance coverage to pay for our time together?

 

 

Are you a natural born prick or do you have to work at it? I've been spit on, stabbed, shot at and even experienced post traumatic stress disorder. Boo hoo, no one relates to me. I've loved and I have been crushed by the very same love. I've experienced death and the miracles of new life now times 6. I've departed a family home by an abusive father, had broken bones, stitches, and concussions, departed and lived under a bridge, in my own house, lost everything, and recently rebuilt. I've experienced the happiness of raising a family, seeing it destroyed as well ripped apart, and experienced the joys of seeing it reunited once again. Excuse me if I don't live the bitterness you demonstrate. Do you really think that what other men think about me or how they doubt me is going to affect me? Lemme clue you in, if you can gird up your loins when everyone else doubts you including yourself you just may one day be a Man my son.

 

I'd like to know how you define reality especially ultimate reality.

 

 

I actually haven't read any indication that you understand Calvinism. Your use of "tradition" actually is a tell tale. Wow, you typed out Calvinism. Do you think you're going to grasp a theological term which umbrellas various doctrine in a few hours, days, weeks, months, years, which took millenniums to develop? Please tell me about how much you don't know.

 

 

Gee, you have it all figured out. Lemme clue you in there's a difference between the capital G in God and lower case g in god. They mean two different things. If you're going to direct your lack of knowledge on a subject at least direct it to the right entity.

 

I'll leave ya'll to boil and fester for a bit. Then I'll come back to stir up the hornet's nest. 😎

 

Maybe I'll be back Monday, I like your guys sarcasm, maybe you guys (those I quoted) should have sarcasm Mondays, that ways it'll limit your sarcasm down to only one day a week!

 

Get a life!

Wow!! The true colors are really showing now are they not! Just what I expected from a true christian! Sad ... but true! ☹️

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Realist said:

Wow!! The true colors are really showing now are they not! Just what I expected from a true christian! Sad ... but true! ☹️

 

You have no idea who a Christian is. Do you think the name is some kinda badge of honor? Perhaps you graduated past it and wear a junior "g man" badge?

 

15 minutes ago, Realist said:

Still waiting on a reply from my question by the way! Twice posted now!

 

You keep waiting now. After all you posted on a wall and that demands attention! Oh there's a question I thought up and that'll change them and rock their world!

 

You remind me of so many but I never got their name:

 

Calvinist.jpg.4fc8d66cb695d640b9791eeb9e2cad81.jpg

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1 minute ago, Christforums said:

 

You have no idea what a Christian is. Do you think the name is some kinda badge of honor? Perhaps you graduated past it and wear a junior "g man" badge?

 

 

You keep waiting now. After all you posted on a wall and that demands attention!

... keep going ... you REALLY are showing your true colors! Your forum would be SO proud of you!!!! 

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2 minutes ago, Realist said:

... keep going ... you REALLY are showing your true colors! Your forum would be SO proud of you!!!! 

 

Oh wow, you REALLY think you understand a standard by which to hold someone accountable to?

 

Proud, you don't know the first thing about humility or humbleness.

 

You think because I'm calling out your jest that I am any lesser than you thought me up to begin with?

 

And one more thing, what do you mean by colors? I can play that card too!

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