Alternatehistory95

On the subject of Hell and Salvation.

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I'd like to point something out. There are hundreds of millions, if not more, of people around the world who will Never, Ever discover Jesus or the Christian faith, and yet STILL be sentenced to eternal torment for not believing in something they've never even heard of according to Christians. Pardon my French, but WHAT THE FUCK? HOW CAN PEOPLE JUSTIFY THAT???

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Many subscribe to the belief that if such people see "god" in nature/creation, and live justly, they will be allowed into heaven.  We had a christian here a few weeks ago trying to argue that very point.  It's not exactly scriptural, per se; but beliefs often aren't.  

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1 hour ago, Alternatehistory95 said:

I'd like to point something out. There are hundreds of millions, if not more, of people around the world who will Never, Ever discover Jesus or the Christian faith, and yet STILL be sentenced to eternal torment for not believing in something they've never even heard of according to Christians. Pardon my French, but WHAT THE FUCK? HOW CAN PEOPLE JUSTIFY THAT???

 

That is what our loving Jesus does. Sends people to hell.

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5 hours ago, Alternatehistory95 said:

HOW CAN PEOPLE JUSTIFY THAT???

They can't, at least not without resorting to some twisted form of logic. Make no sense to me ... :/

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I've known Christians who take what would be, in their terms, the brutally logical approach.  Those who know nothing of Christ are condemned because they are sinners, and sin is a matter of human responsibility.

I suppose that view may have the "merit" (note quotation marks) of greater scriptural consistency than the "god will let them in anyway" approach.  Then again, it does not explain quite how this can be justified in terms of a "loving" god.  I suppose it depends on which part of an internally inconsistent worldview the individual believer is most comfortable ignoring.

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4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Many subscribe to the belief that if such people see "god" in nature/creation, and live justly, they will be allowed into heaven.  We had a christian here a few weeks ago trying to argue that very point.  It's not exactly scriptural, per se; but beliefs often aren't.  

 

That's a common argument, but it undermines the Great Commission. What's the point in spreading the Gospel to save people from Hell if they can be saved without it?

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Ultimately, hell exists for the glory of god.  Whatever brings glory to god is good. 

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32 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Ultimately, hell exists for the glory of god.  Whatever brings glory to god is good. 

 

Similar to divine command theory. Whatever God commands is good, because God is goodness. Therefore slaughtering children is good (Canaanites et al) because god commanded it.

 

This is how people get over their unease of the idea of slaughtering children, even if they are enemies.

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Paul says in Romans 19-20 that the truth of God is known instinctively, so there is no excuse.

 

19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

 

That's some mighty justification right there.  I'm not sure that it means that everyone knows God or they know God once they're told about Him, but to me it sounds like the former.

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But then is it a case of believing in a creator is all it takes or do you have to believe in Christ specifically? "No one meets daddy, except via me", if so then while you can know god from nature, you won't know Christ. If its a case of they are one and the same then the NT is irrelevant. 

 

I've seen one Christian agree that god is just and merciful, agree that because of that He wouldn't punish the ignorant as that wouldn't be just. So when asked why teach the bible at all, he said the old line "people will choose to worship god or not. He won't cast them into hell, they would choose that for themselves". 

Can you imagine a court doing that? "Mr Johnson, you've been found guilty of murder. You now have the hard decision of whether you want to go to prison for the next 20 years, or I can hand you this wad of cash, give you the keys to the ferrari parked downstairs and set you up in a mansion, rent free, for the rest of your life. I'll give you a minute to think it over... "

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St. Augustine said that dead babied went to Hell because they weren't Christened, though he would later be reversed by a Pope who stated that babied without Christ went to Limbo, where they were separated from God, but didn't suffer because they didn't know what they were missing in their lives.  It took about 800 years for the Church to restate this and officially proclaim that dead babies could go to Heaven after all.  If you could say that about babies, what would an "all-loving" God say about someone who actually had a chance to live and such?

 

17 hours ago, Wertbag said:

I've seen one Christian agree that god is just and merciful, agree that because of that He wouldn't punish the ignorant as that wouldn't be just. So when asked why teach the bible at all, he said the old line "people will choose to worship god or not. He won't cast them into hell, they would choose that for themselves". 

 

This too renders the New Testament as irrelevant as well.  If someone can be good and go to Heaven, that goes against not only the only way to the Father is through the Son, but also the inherent sinful nature of man as preached by Paul.  No one can be good without God, so they say, so an ignorant person is simply screwed.  ANd yes, this contradicts my opinion in my last post.  It just proves that it's all subject to human opinion and error.  The whole thing is a clusterfuck.

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Picture a woman born in 1550, living and dying without hearing the Gospel.....Thanks to the curse of God on His creation, no matter how well she lived, no matter how kind, despite all the charity and love she may have offered....Yahweh and Son will roast her for ever and ever and ever in screaming pain.......purely for having lived and inheriting sin......

 

Nasty, nasty stuff

 

Conversely, in standard Christian theology, Ted Bundy who raped and then murdered women and who repented on his death bed.......will be given a harp and a room in the Mansion of God while his victims are fried by God.....

 

Only lunatics could possibly want this to be true. 

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On 1/20/2019 at 12:48 PM, Castiel233 said:

Picture a woman born in 1550, living and dying without hearing the Gospel.....Thanks to the curse of God on His creation, no matter how well she lived, no matter how kind, despite all the charity and love she may have offered....Yahweh and Son will roast her for ever and ever and ever in screaming pain.......purely for having lived and inheriting sin......

 

Nasty, nasty stuff

 

Conversely, in standard Christian theology, Ted Bundy who raped and then murdered women and who repented on his death bed.......will be given a harp and a room in the Mansion of God while his victims are fried by God.....

 

Only lunatics could possibly want this to be true. 

 

It's just like life: when you're in the "In Crowd" you tend not to care about anyone else.  I'm not the first person to recognize that Heaven is a place where victims can welcome their murderers with open arms.  I was conflicted about it then and kind of sickened by it now.

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On 1/20/2019 at 12:48 PM, Castiel233 said:

 

Only lunatics could possibly want this to be true. 

Believers would say that they don't want it to be true; but that it just is true because that's the way god set it up (and everything god does is good).  This absolves them of any evil intent or maliciousness, while not exactly placing the blame on god either.  The true hardcores would go further and say unbelievers choose hell.

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On 1/16/2019 at 12:01 PM, Alternatehistory95 said:

I'd like to point something out. There are hundreds of millions, if not more, of people around the world who will Never, Ever discover Jesus or the Christian faith, and yet STILL be sentenced to eternal torment for not believing in something they've never even heard of according to Christians. Pardon my French, but WHAT THE FUCK? HOW CAN PEOPLE JUSTIFY THAT???

 

Divine command theory. God defines what is good. Sending people to hell requires no justification because it is something God does, and hence cannot be anything but good.

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On 1/17/2019 at 10:28 AM, 1989 said:

Paul says in Romans 19-20 that the truth of God is known instinctively, so there is no excuse.

 

 

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On 1/24/2019 at 7:36 PM, disillusioned said:

Divine command theory. God defines what is good. Sending people to hell requires no justification because it is something God does, and hence cannot be anything but good.

 

Yes I have also heard this. And this is the best. Because it simply says that only God is objective, so it does matter if anything seems wrong, or evil, etc. If he says it , it is good. For example God says - I will make your son the father of many nations to Abraham, then kill Isaac, then don't kill Isaac. There are of course a lot of explanations, but the bottom thing is that it seems to me that God demands absolute trust and obedience. He can say jump on a train today, tommorow chew some gum, next day kill your wife, the next minute give some candy to orphans, or what actually happened give a command to Moses Thou shalt not kill, and Moses goes down from the mountain and orders mass killings. God answers to no one and nothing. Christianity , from what I can see, requires, it its innermost essence, relinquishing of critical thought, of any questions. You should become totally empty. To me this seems extremely similar to the best brainwashing experiments.  God is, at least in the Orthodox Tradition, considered Being in itself, but not in pantheist sense. The famous I AM, and I AM THE TRUTH THE WAY AND THE LIFE.   Sin is non -existence. 

 

The problem with Christians saying that we choose Hell is actually that it means that a spiritually sane person , be it angel or human, can make such an irrational decision to forfeit eternal bliss and choose eternal torture. This is actually very hard to reconcile with God's perfection. He made angels and humans good, as in partaking in his goodness. If a being partaking in his goodness make evil choices, well, this either means, the being was not made good but somehow flawed, or 2) divine goodness is capable of making evil choices. 

 

The free will problem is a lot more complicated than snippets from apologetics manual. I mean this problem caused major schism and turmoil in the Christian Church. 

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On 1/24/2019 at 9:36 AM, disillusioned said:

 

Divine command theory. God defines what is good. Sending people to hell requires no justification because it is something God does, and hence cannot be anything but good.

 

I prefer to call it "divine command speculation" or the "divine command assertion".

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42 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

I prefer to call it "divine command speculation" or the "divine command assertion".

 

Divine command rationalization?

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On 1/16/2019 at 12:01 PM, Alternatehistory95 said:

I'd like to point something out. There are hundreds of millions, if not more, of people around the world who will Never, Ever discover Jesus or the Christian faith, and yet STILL be sentenced to eternal torment for not believing in something they've never even heard of according to Christians. Pardon my French, but WHAT THE FUCK? HOW CAN PEOPLE JUSTIFY THAT???

My ex church justified it like this: "they didn't search/pray hard enough for the truth to be revealed for them, therefore it is justified and the blame lies with them." The church also taught "only god can open a non believers eyes, so that they can search for the truth." Who is on the hook here ultimately? God. And they're ok with it. They want to have it both ways, free will and god's will, but ultimately, god's will is good, because god can never be anything but good (divine command theory). You really do not stand a chance of getting out of Christianity if you can't question the divine command theory.

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6 hours ago, disillusioned said:

 

Divine command rationalization?

 

That works just as well, as does divine command mythology, divine command fiction, Stockholm Syndrome example, I have special access and you don't, My God is special so I am too, I'm too lazy to think about so I just make shit up, etc.

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On 1/16/2019 at 5:01 PM, Alternatehistory95 said:

I'd like to point something out. There are hundreds of millions, if not more, of people around the world who will Never, Ever discover Jesus or the Christian faith, and yet STILL be sentenced to eternal torment for not believing in something they've never even heard of according to Christians. Pardon my French, but WHAT THE FUCK? HOW CAN PEOPLE JUSTIFY THAT???

 

A few ways. If they're Calvinist, they'll likely just say that those people weren't elect. For everyone else, they'll probably use that damn Romans passage that says God's attributes have been clearly seen and so people have no excuse. What exactly does that mean though? I doubt they would argue that a person can be saved simply by believing in some vague God of nature. Others would use the story of Cornelius in Acts and argue that God will find a way to reach out to those who truly seek him, and so therefore anyone who doesn't hear obviously didn't search hard enough, or would not have believed anyway even if they did hear. Which is a problem not only because it's impossible to prove that all the unreached did not search or would not have believed, but also because how the hell are they supposed to search for something if they don't know it exists? These excuses are just an easy way of dismissing the unreached as deserving hell, without even knowing their hearts. All you gotta do is make assumptions about strangers, and bam, God is off the hook. Of course, no surprise there, as Christians will always bend over backwards to defend their God. 

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23 hours ago, Stargazer95 said:

Others would use the story of Cornelius in Acts and argue that God will find a way to reach out to those who truly seek him, and so therefore anyone who doesn't hear obviously didn't search hard enough, or would not have believed anyway even if they did hear.

 

This is...yes. There is something here, about this type of logic in Christianity, about always taking God's side. Like telling a rape victim - it's your fault, you tempted him, so YOU better change your ways and apologize to the rapist, who is the actual victim. God is both the righteous judge, the innocent victim and the Saviour. It is just mind-boggling to me now. Seems a classic case of "blaming the victim"

 

They did not search enough... I have this argument for this. Suppose you are a Muslim and you are told that ANYTHING contradicting the Quran is the devil's work and illusion. Period. You WOULD not believe anything contrary. You are sure of the truth, as some Christians are of theirs. They convince themselves that is is true, and ANY doubt is the product of evil. Searching for truth pressupposes and open mind, whereas a lot cultish-like religions are very eager to close the mind through ways of mind control. To even THINK something like hey this thing might not be true, means you had some education and freedom of thought. Indoctrination robs you of that. Plus all the chores one does daily. 

 

And this also one of those unfalsifiable  claims. Because there is no objective measurement of How hard one tries. Only God judges. And his judgement is beyond our understanding. Even Paul says this in Romans, I think, that who are we to judge God? But this sounds very interesting considering how many stories of sudden conversion by experience one hears - for example in Near Death experiences.  And some of these people seem to not have tried at all.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 1/26/2019 at 12:07 PM, sdelsolray said:

 

I prefer to call it "divine command speculation" or the "divine command assertion".

 

Hey, that's as good a name for it as any!

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