Given your options

[Christforums]

Hello,

 

Just dropping a question that I think may lead to some interesting dialogue. Based on my introduction and the responses received I am under the impression that a lot of people think I came to this board with clear intent armed with an argument etc. Well, I came upon this website and began skimming through various threads and had an idea. Eh, that idea hasn't been received well so I'd like to pose a simple question in order to learn about others here. To note, this is a first for me, I actually have never joined a board outspokenly against Christianity. 

 

Now I'm sure some answers to my question may be emotionally charged, some answers may be derived from personal experience through relationships, others through propositional knowledge learned from books etc. I'm not looking for any particular way of answering but would like to hear from anyone taking the time to address the question.

 

Here's my 2 part question, Why is your only option to reject God? And, why has the option been the basis or foundation of your position against God?

 

Enjoy,

William

[TheRedneckProfessor]

36 minutes ago, Christforums said:

 

Here's my 2 part question, Why is your only option to reject God? And, why has the option been the basis or foundation of your position against God?

 

Enjoy,

William

This is a false dichotomy.   You've limited the options to either accept god or reject god (with the unstated provision that "god" refers to the christian version).  There are other options available: pantheism, agnostic theism, deism, deistic Buddhism, to mention a few.

 

Moreover, neither atheism nor agnosticism is a "rejection" of God.  This is a "kindergarten" misrepresentation.  Both positions are simply default of disbelief based upon lack of evidence to support the claim that a god or gods exist.

 

I'd advise you take an advanced tutorial in logical fallacies before proceeding any further.

[Christforums]

7 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

This is a false dichotomy.   You've limited the options to either accept god or reject god (with the unstated provision that "god" refers to the christian version).  There are other options available: pantheism, agnostic theism, deism, deistic Buddhism, to mention a few.

 

Moreover, neither atheism nor agnosticism is a "rejection" of God.  This is a "kindergarten" misrepresentation.  Both positions are simply default of disbelief based upon lack of evidence to support the claim that a god or god's exist.

 

I'd advise you take an advanced tutorial in logical fallacies before proceeding any further.

 

G'day,

 

Have you replaced God for your perspective or man's understanding of a god in my question?

[florduh]

5 minutes ago, Christforums said:

Here's my 2 part question, Why is your only option to reject God? And, why has the option been the basis or foundation of your position against God?

 

You don't even see that you're making too many assumptions by posing this question. This points to my basic problem with debating Christians.

 

Ex-Christians, such as those found around here, definitely have left behind their belief in the Christian God. Not all former Christians are atheists as a few take some sort of deistic view or other. The reason for rejecting the assertion that the Christian God exists or that any other god exists, is the lack of evidence for such an extraordinary claim. As a Christian you believe in one particular god out of a field of thousands. Why do you not believe in all those other gods? It's the same reason(s) I don't believe in yours.

 

[Christforums]

4 minutes ago, florduh said:

You don't even see that you're making too many assumptions by posing this question. This points to my basic problem with debating Christians.

 

Ex-Christians, such as those found around here, definitely have left behind their belief in the Christian God. Not all former Christians are atheists as a few take some sort of deistic view or other. The reason for rejecting the assertion that the Christian God exists or that any other god exists, is the lack of evidence for such an extraordinary claim. As a Christian you believe in one particular god out of a field of thousands. Why do you not believe in all those other gods? It's the same reason(s) I don't believe in yours.

 

 

I acknowledge your perspective, but I think you're ignoring the actual question as stated.

 

I'm not looking to prove God's existence. God exists is a Christian axiom.

 

Having said that, I'd like to ask that you do not assume to know what I believe at this point. I am simply asking for some genuine answers. I'm not here attempting to win a debate.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

9 minutes ago, Christforums said:

 

G'day,

 

Have you replaced God for your perspective or man's understanding of a god in my question?

Have you replaced Vishnu for your perspective or man's understanding in your question?

 

See the problem yet? 

[Christforums]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Have you replaced Vishnu for your perspective or man's understanding in your question?

 

See the problem yet? 

 

The only problem that I see is from not addressing the question. I assure you what you might perceive as a bait question has nothing to do with various religious perspectives.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 minutes ago, Christforums said:

 

The only problem that I see is from not addressing the question. I assure you what you perceive as a bait question has nothing to do with various religious perspectives.

I'm sure it doesn't.  I'd wager you'd rather talk about "belief" as a segue into "belief in the christian god", than discuss Hinduism.  

 

That said, I cannot properly address an improperly formed question, hence the suggestion of studying up on logical fallacies.

[ag_NO_stic]

22 minutes ago, Christforums said:

 

G'day,

 

Have you replaced God for your perspective or man's understanding of a god in my question?

 

I have replaced what humans say god is with my own personal experience and grasp of reality. 

[florduh]

11 minutes ago, Christforums said:

 

I acknowledge your perspective, but I think you're ignoring the actual question as stated.

 

I'm not looking to prove God's existence. God exists is a Christian axiom.

 

Having said that, I'd like to ask that you do not assume to know what I believe at this point. I am simply asking for some genuine answers. I'm not here attempting to win a debate.

You asked why the only option was to reject your god. Rejecting something implies it exists. It's a bullshit question, as has been pointed out to you.

 

Next? 

[ag_NO_stic]

40 minutes ago, Christforums said:

Hello,

 

Just dropping a question that I think may lead to some interesting dialogue. Based on my introduction and the responses received I am under the impression that a lot of people think I came to this board with clear intent armed with an argument etc. Well, I came upon this website and began skimming through various threads and had an idea. Eh, that idea hasn't been received well so I'd like to pose a simple question in order to learn about others here. To note, this is a first for me, I actually have never joined a board outspokenly against Christianity. 

 

Now I'm sure some answers to my question may be emotionally charged, some answers may be derived from personal experience through relationships, others through propositional knowledge learned from books etc. I'm not looking for any particular way of answering but would like to hear from anyone taking the time to address the question.

 

Here's my 2 part question, Why is your only option to reject God? And, why has the option been the basis or foundation of your position against God?

 

Enjoy,

William

 

A question for you, if you did not come here to either recover from Christianity or denounce it, and you're not here to evangelize.....then why are you here? You could read what's on here without joining, but you wanted to create a username and interact with us. Why?

[Christforums]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm sure it doesn't.  I'd wager you'd rather talk about "belief" as a segue into "belief in the christian god", than discuss Hinduism.  

 

That said, I cannot properly address an improperly formed question, hence the suggestion of studying up on logical fallacies.

 

I assure you I do not bite. At least not without warning or unprovoked.

 

My question does not address other religions or gods.

 

Lemme try to clarify a bit more. Having said that, I'd appreciate being asked for clarification rather than having to address points I did not make.

 

In your initial reply you stated that I limited the options to either accept or reject. Lemme suggest that I did not give an alternative option to accept which assumes the decision maker has the autonomy to decide differently than the only option that they are capable of making.

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

40 minutes ago, Christforums said:

 

G'day,

 

Have you replaced God for your perspective or man's understanding of a god in my question?

 

You seem to imply here that there is an understanding of God outside human perspective or understanding. What god is there if not one of man's understanding? Do you think you have an understanding of god that is not your perspective or 'man's understanding'?

 

The professor already pointed out the flaws in your OP, and Florduh pointed out rejection assumes the existence of god which you haven't established. Perhaps you should start by clearly defining what YOU mean by god, what it's characteristics are, and how you happen to know this.

 

[ag_NO_stic]

6 minutes ago, Christforums said:

 

I assure you I do not bite. At least not without warning or unprovoked.

 

My question does not address other religions or gods.

 

Lemme try to clarify a bit more. Having said that, I'd appreciate being asked for clarification rather than having to address points I did not make.

 

In your initial reply you stated that I limited the options to either accept or reject. Lemme suggest that I did not give an alternative option to accept which assumes the decision maker has the autonomy to decide differently than the only option that they are capable of making.

 

 

 

Hey, I don't mean this rude.....I do not understand what you are asking me. The way you asked your question, I see where our professor here took it. 

 

What are you asking? It's very unclear.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 minutes ago, Christforums said:

 

My question does not address other religions or gods

Precisely.  You wish to only address the "christian" god.  But we already knew that, hence the provision noted in my first response.

 

As florduh pointed out, your question is improperly framed because it assumes facts not in evidence.  Whether rejection is the only option or not, nothing beyond belief can be decided until said "god" is proven to exist.  Thus the acknowledgement in my third response.

 

Rather than obfuscating the issue with word games, you'd do better to outright ask, "Why don't you folks believe in my particular perception of the christian version of god?"

 

Not that I mind word games; but you'd get far more responses from far more intelligent people than me if you reframe the question into something that can legitimately be answered.

[florduh]

And this is why I no longer play chess with pigeons.

[disillusioned]

1 hour ago, Christforums said:

 

 

Here's my 2 part question, Why is your only option to reject God? And, why has the option been the basis or foundation of your position against God?

 

 

 

The question presupposes that God exists. I'm not willing to grant this. But say I was.  It also presupposes that the God which exists is God as you understand him. I'm not willing to grant this either. But say I was. Your holy book says that if I will draw near to God, he will draw near to me. I did. He didn't.

 

I don't mean to imply that I feel anger towards God,  or that I feel he ought to have revealed himself to me.  I feel fairly confident that if there is a God, he's probably not interested in me at all.  But the fact is, I was a Christian my whole life, and tried desperately for years to stay one. It turns out that there is simply no reason to believe that it is true. None whatsoever.

[Christforums]

23 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

You seem to imply here that there is an understanding of God outside human perspective or understanding. What god is there if not one of man's understanding? Do you think you have an understanding of god that is not your perspective or 'man's understanding'?

 

The professor already pointed out the flaws in your OP, and Florduh pointed out rejection assumes the existence of god which you haven't established. Perhaps you should start by clearly defining what YOU mean by god, what it's characteristics are, and how you happen to know this.

 

 

Well, lemme assure you that I do not think an infinite God can be fully perceived or comprehended by a finite mind. And I think that God can only be made known to man by God revealing Himself. This is what Christians generally mean by a mystery. A mystery in most circles is nothing more than the unknown. However, properly understood, from a Scriptural standpoint, a mystery is someone or thing that is made known that would not be otherwise known unless revealed by God. Of course, this leads to exactly the source or sources of revelation. However, this is not a point of my question.

 

And lemme address that I do believe God ought to be defined with consideration of His characteristics and attributes. Although, the characteristics and attributes are not god. For example, Scripture states that "God is love", but love is not God. In other words God is the standard bearer for love, but man's perception of love is not to be projected upon God thereby making man's love a god. Two different standard bearers actually.

 

Back to my question because though I think your response was fruitful in addressing to better understand the use of who I mean by God, I asked my OP question while keeping the audience in mind. I am addressing man, his/her nature and inability to actually accept God.

 

It has already been a point of contention where logic is concerned. I'm sure some will point out the logical fallacy of appealing to authority. No problemo, I'm curious as to how some may address that particular fallacy while appealing to themselves as the authority when answering the OP question.

 

 

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, Christforums said:

Hello,

 

Just dropping a question that I think may lead to some interesting dialogue. Based on my introduction and the responses received I am under the impression that a lot of people think I came to this board with clear intent armed with an argument etc. Well, I came upon this website and began skimming through various threads and had an idea. Eh, that idea hasn't been received well so I'd like to pose a simple question in order to learn about others here. To note, this is a first for me, I actually have never joined a board outspokenly against Christianity. 

 

Now I'm sure some answers to my question may be emotionally charged, some answers may be derived from personal experience through relationships, others through propositional knowledge learned from books etc. I'm not looking for any particular way of answering but would like to hear from anyone taking the time to address the question.

 

Here's my 2 part question, Why is your only option to reject God? And, why has the option been the basis or foundation of your position against God?

 

Enjoy,

William

 

Rejecting God is not my only option. I keep my options open. I chose to reject biblically imposed guilt for having bad thoughts (Matthew 5:27) and a few other things that made belief in Jesus into a mental irritation. I got tired of apologizing to God every time I said Goddammit (agnostic with a foul mouth for 30 years prior to accepting Christ). I got tired of the OCD associated with these thoughts and behaviors and just said, "Adios" to God one day. I told him that he would just have to deal with it. He never really said anything to me about that afterward. Most of the time I don't worship or believe in anything special but sometimes I enjoy some Zen, Advaita, pagan or other philosophies.

 

Then  years after that I came to this website and discovered all the logic and reason behind why Jesus most likely does not even exist. Not an atheist here. Just prefer to run my own life and think my own way.

 

My view of a supreme being is one who doesnt reserve a Hell for people dont love him. A supreme being isn't jealous. A supreme being doesn't employ original sin or inherited guilt. imho.

 

Hope that's helpful.

[LogicalFallacy]

7 minutes ago, Christforums said:

Back to my question because though I think your response was fruitful in addressing to better understand the use of who I mean by God, I asked my OP question while keeping the audience in mind. I am addressing man, his/her nature and inability to actually accept God.

 

Ok leaving aside your portion about 'revelation' as that could be a topic in itself, we'll try and address your OP.

 

You speak of inability to accept God. Why don't you accept Allah, Zeus, the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Think about this carefully. Because usually once you understand why you don't accept those Gods, you'll begin to understand why many of us have gone one further and don't accept the Christian god.

 

Talking of man and his nature - it would in fact appear the nature of man is to accept a god of some sort. I understand it's something like 5.5 billion out of 7 billion that believe in some theistic kind of god, 2.1 billion of those as Christians, 1.6 billion Muslims. So those who don't accept are very much an outlier and not in line with the 'nature of man'.

 

7 minutes ago, Christforums said:

It has already been a point of contention where logic is concerned. I'm sure some will point out the logical fallacy of appealing to authority. No problemo, I'm curious as to how some may address that particular fallacy while appealing to themselves as the authority when answering the OP question.

 

The problem of using the bible to prove the bible is one of circular reasoning. God reveals himself through the bible. How do we know this? The Bible says so.

 

Unless you can come up with some decent evidence for God outside the bible this conversation probably won' go anywhere fast.

 

And you have still failed to define your god in any meaningful way.

[Christforums]

10 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Not an atheist here. Just prefer to run my own life and think my own way. 

 

Exactly, your point is a major ingredient to my question.

 

Why do you think you "prefer" or have the desire to run the show your way and that you do not desire God?

 

This is the heart of my question and one that touches upon the nature of man.

 

Thank you midniterider, what appears as the first genuine answer pegged the question.

[ag_NO_stic]

24 minutes ago, Christforums said:

 

Exactly, your point is a major ingredient to my question.

 

Why do you think you "prefer" or have the desire to run the show your way and that you do not desire God?

 

This is the heart of my question and one that touches upon the nature of man.

 

Thank you midniterider, what appears as the first genuine answer pegged the question.

 

Are you serious? You can ask anyone here, I don't get annoyed easily.

 

You asked for a representative to go debate on your site, I agreed to do it, you said nevermind. You asked a question on this thread, I answered genuinely, you have literally not responded to anything else I've asked or said to you. Then you go past my reply to call another post the only one that looks genuine to you? 

 

We get it. You think you know the truth. I know, because I used to think that too. I understand.  You'll likely go on some tangent about how this life isn't about what we want, it's about what god wants, and spending eternity with him.  Or maybe you'll go the "What you want is of the flesh, what you "prefer" is sinful, so of course you will pick it." Not doing it for you? Maybe, "Your perspective is limited, why would you choose to lean on your own understanding over the understanding of an all-powerful, loving, infinite creator?"

 

Easy. If god wants me to worship him, he needs to show up. I'm willing. I don't "reject god," I reject what humans tell me god is. Just like you're trying to do. Tell me who he is, what he wants, etc. He can tell me himself and maybe I'll do it.

[Christforums]

16 minutes ago, ag_NO_stic said:

 

Are you serious? You can ask anyone here, I don't get annoyed easily.

 

You asked for a representative to go debate on your site, I agreed to do it, you said nevermind. You asked a question on a on this thread, I answered genuinely, you have literally not responded to anything else I've asked or said to you. Then you go past my reply to call another post, and call that the only one that looks genuine to you? 

 

We get it. You think you know the truth. I know, because I used to think that too. I understand.  You'll likely go on some tangent about how this life isn't about what we want, it's about what god wants, and spending eternity with him.  Or maybe you'll go the "What you want is of the flesh, what you "prefer" is sinful, so of course you will pick it." Not doing it for you? Maybe, "Your perspective is limited, why would you choose to lean on your own understanding over the understanding of an all-powerful, loving, infinite creator?"

 

Easy. If god wants me to worship him, he needs to show up. I'm willing. I don't "reject god," I reject what humans tell me god is. Just like you're trying to do. Tell me who he is, what he wants, etc. He can tell me himself and maybe I'll do it.

 

Are you offended?

 

First of all, you're not the only one responding to me. I am only one man which is being addressed by a group of people.

 

In the other thread I invited staff from here or the board's reps. Instead a few people pointed me to this category to create a thread.

 

I think I know the truth? Well, lemme give you my first impressions based on our engagement. You obviously think you understand me, who or what I believe. I asked a question in the OP, it has been clarified but not really answered. Midniterider answered the actual question instead of judging the question at hand or fitting into preconceived constructs as others have demonstrated. Are you suggesting that your case is different than Midniterider's and is special? Or would you agree with the answer given and say it has application in your life?

 

16 minutes ago, ag_NO_stic said:

Easy. If god wants me to worship him, he needs to show up. I'm willing. I don't "reject god," I reject what humans tell me god is. Just like you're trying to do. Tell me who he is, what he wants, etc. He can tell me himself and maybe I'll do it.

 

No maybe, at least in my mind. There's no evidence to the contrary that you're capable of decision other than rejecting God. You cannot prove that you'd truly accept God because true acceptance is defined Biblically as a lifelong response to God which entails, confession, repentance, and faith, all of which comes by Grace. None of these things or works are you truly capable of in a life long endeavor. Obviously, my question attempts to members about "why" that is, and to note, you reject what humans tell you a god is, but you yourself are a human. Are you rejecting or only accepting what you believe god is not or is <selectivism>. I touched upon this by an apparent logical fallacy as another has tried to point out a fallacy. Are you not the sole authority in your life? Subject to no other God or god other than your "self"? This is what I consider hidden idolatry. Though you suggest that you reject gods self idolatry is worship of a god. It comes natural to man and is why I am addressing the nature of man in my OP question. 

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

22 minutes ago, Christforums said:

 

Exactly, your point is a major ingredient to my question.

 

Why do you think you "prefer" or have the desire to run the show your way and that you do not desire God?

 

I think I see where you might be going here. You appear to have this idea that we prefer to reject god. These assumptions are coming through which is why members are not playing the game.

 

I can't speak for Midnite or anyone else but I would have preferred if I could have remained a believer. My family and friends are all believers from the same church. I'm the 'black sheep' so to speak. Losing faith and belief was one of the worst experiences of my life.

 

So why do it? Well it wasn't a choice. I looked at all the reasons arguments and evidence for God and over time I found I simply didn't believe God existed. There was no conscious rejection of God. I can tell you at least one section of the bible is pure bullshit. It claims that all men know in their hearts God exists. This is pure b's... I don't know and I am not convinced any God's do exist.

 

Convince me. 

[Christforums]

13 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

I think I see where you might be going here. You appear to have this idea that we prefer to reject god. These assumptions are coming through which is why members are not playing the game.

 

Thank you first for your responses and engagement.

 

Assumptions?

 

13 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

I can't speak for Midnite or anyone else but I would have preferred if I could have remained a believer. My family and friends are all believers from the same church. I'm the 'black sheep' so to speak. Losing faith and belief was one of the worst experiences of my life.

 

Did you lose faith or belief or did God not fit into your human perception of who God should be? In other words did you reject God because you could not mold him in the hands of your mental projection? God is the standard bearer and not vice versa. Sounds to me like you might of wanted to appeal to the majority or fit in rather than genuinely responding to God? I am not criticizing you, only asking for consideration.

 

13 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

So why do it? Well it wasn't a choice. I looked at all the reasons arguments and evidence for God and over time I found I simply didn't believe God existed. There was no conscious rejection of God. I can tell you at least one section of the bible is pure bullshit. It claims that all men know in their hearts God exists. This is pure b's... I don't know and I am not convinced any God's do exist.

 

Tis' the nature of man to support their presuppositions. And quite contrary to what you're suggesting the bible speaks awfully about the heart of man. In essence the heart of man is an idol factory.

 

13 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Convince me. 

 

All I'm asking for here are honest answers which may be derived from a source of knowledge or introspection.