LogicalFallacy

No link between vaccinations and autisim

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https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/111028999/no-link-between-vaccinations-and-autism-major-study-finds

 

Watch the anti vaxxer crowd decry well funded research serving pharmaceutical interests.

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There is a lot of bullshit coming from the pharmaceutical industry. However, in this case, the results of certain populations refusing to vaccinate are showing up and it ain't pretty. There is no link to autism and that has been thoroughly established for years. We do know better but the conspiracy mindset is a hard nut to crack despite in your face evidence. It's not unlike religion or political entrenchment.

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Man, this is one of those topics that I tend to tread lightly with. But I still think it must be discussed to reach a better resolution than what we currently have if for no other reason the drug makers have a serious vested interest in getting the public to support the drug industry as a whole. One of the biggest hurdles is medical studies. A given study may seem to suggest a given thing, but does it really? Is there bias involved? Who did the study and who funded it, etc. And then there is the problem of the public not being educated enough to read said studies and discern if what they read is actually true.

 

No matter the cause, clearly autism is a growing problem. We need to know what the cause(s) are. Everything should be fair game in the search, regardless of who has a vested interest. What we do know is that when you have humans traveling, you start to introduce new things to those places, and that can be devastating to the societies you visit. Just ask the cultures throughout history that were wiped out due to Westerners visiting and invading faraway lands. The process of globalization sounds nice, but it has had major impacts on humanity, and I suspect it goes much deeper than we might think. It could be that there needs to be a flushing out period where it takes time to build immunities and we are still in that period so we are seeing various reactions to the changes that will taper off over time.

 

I see the anti-vaxx debate as a misdirection. Personally, I suspect we are being told to "look over there" when we need to be looking elsewhere. The tactic of getting you to watch the left hand so you don't see what the right hand is doing is not exactly anything new. We need to know what both hands are doing!

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4 hours ago, Lefty said:

No matter the cause, clearly autism is a growing problem. We need to know what the cause(s) are.

I agree, but vaccinations have been eliminated as a cause. Study after study over many years supports this. Remember, this whole conspiracy began with one debunked study by Wakefield.

 

Clearly, there are more reported and diagnosed cases, but is there really a higher incidence than there used to be and how can we tell? If so, why? Genetics? Diet? Did we simply move the goalpost? 

 

http://time.com/3652619/autism-diagnosis/

 

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So, based on those two links, one can make the argument the experts don't know for sure why there is an increase. That in itself backs my stance something needs to be done. It would be nice if the numbers are increasing not because of more children having it, but that the way it is reported has improved somehow, and thus more cases are because of more reporting.

 

I'm not able to claim the reason for autism, I'm not an expert, I just know it's a big problem that needs much more attention. With our society being pumped full of chemicals in so many ways, there is no telling just how many medical conditions are the result of that exposure. It seems we have more than enough evidence that shows we as a society need to find a way to reduce our exposure to so many non-natural things in our lives. If we keep taking a pill for everything we do, how will that affect us in the long run? At what point will that start dumbing down our immune systems, thus making us even more vulnerable to disease? 

 

All I know is that the drug companies have a history, manufacturing has a history, etc., and it's not a good history at that. Society will indeed pay the price for all that greed and corruption. The reality is that what causes autism isn't a big enough question. The problems we have are far bigger than that.

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37 minutes ago, Lefty said:

So, based on those two links, one can make the argument the experts don't know for sure why there is an increase.

First, I would like to see there actually is an increase in autism itself, not just the reporting and diagnosing of it. I doubt it's possible to conclusively show an actual increase from a time when diagnosis, definition and record keeping were so different to today with its new methodology and rules.

 

Assuming there is an increase in autism, or anything else, I would point to things such as the rise in lung cancer coinciding with nuclear testing rather than the smoking that has gone on since the beginning of time, I look at our diet and the increase in diabetes and obesity, pollution in general would have to take a toll on our health, the immediate quick fix of pharmaceutical solutions for everything from a simple headache to gas, and the increased stress that defines modern society for so many. Causation and correlation get tricky, especially when trying to compare and contrast what was assumed to be the case in the distant and essentially undocumented past and current conditions that are so thoroughly reported, studied, defined, redefined, discussed by laymen on social media and beaten to death by statisticians.

 

Maybe it's because we took God out of our schools... 😝

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Wow... so here in NZ we have an outbreak of Measles... after being declared all clear. Why? Because some muggin didn't vaccinate!

 

So one of our media commentators is giving his opinion of anti vaxxers and he is not holding back.. and Duncan is usually a fairly polite calm fellow. This time round he rips the morons for all they are worth

 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/03/duncan-garner-anti-vax-murderers-shouldn-t-get-access-to-the-welfare-system.html

 

 

Incidentally I pretty much agree with what he says. If I had children they'd only be associating with children that have been vaccinated.... we'll let evolution take care of the ones gunning for Darwin's award.

 

 

(PS this is not a harmless belief like the earth is flat, 9/11 was an inside job, or the moon landing was faked - this anti vax movement has real life consequences, and not just for them and their children, but for the rest of us.)

 

Dr House in the TV show House said it well (Of course Doctors can't actually say this... except in TV programs)

 

Quote

 

House: Mmhmm. No fever, glands normal, missing her vaccination dates.

Young Mother: We're not vaccinating.

House: Think they don't work?

Young Mother: I think some multinational pharmaceutical company wants me to think they work. Pad their bottom line.

House: Mmmm. May I? [He takes the toy frog and starts to do the gribbit noise with the baby]

Young Mother: [Whispered] Sure.

House: Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. [The baby laughs] All natural no dyes. That's a good business: all-natural children's toys. Those toy companies, they don't arbitrarily mark up their frogs. They don't lie about how much they spend in research and development. The worst a toy company can be accused of is making a really boring frog.

[Young Mother laughs and so does House. The baby giggles again]

House: Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. You know another really good business? Teeny tiny baby coffins. You can get them in frog green or fire engine red. Really. The antibodies in yummy mummy only protect the kid for 6 months, which is why these companies think they can gouge you. They think that you'll spend whatever they ask to keep your kid alive. Want to change things? Prove them wrong. A few hundred parents like you decide they'd rather let their kid die then cough up 40 bucks for a vaccination, believe me, prices will drop REALLY fast. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit.

 

 

 

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The need for vaccines aside, I'm curious if it's just me, or has there been a sudden outbreak of these diseases in multiple locations? Or is it the media is focusing of late for whatever motivations that make it appear more than what has been normal outbreaks?

 

Forgive me, but I am very suspicious of when something comes up and big pharma shouts their drugs are needed. Some drugs are needed indeed, but knowing the history of drug makers and how they operate I tend to be skeptical.

 

I say this because people opposing vaccines is absolutely nothing new. What has been pushed into the media spotlight recently is immigration. I'm not convinced that is coincidence.

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1 hour ago, Lefty said:

The need for vaccines aside, I'm curious if it's just me, or has there been a sudden outbreak of these diseases in multiple locations? Or is it the media is focusing of late for whatever motivations that make it appear more than what has been normal outbreaks?

 

Forgive me, but I am very suspicious of when something comes up and big pharma shouts their drugs are needed. Some drugs are needed indeed, but knowing the history of drug makers and how they operate I tend to be skeptical.

 

I say this because people opposing vaccines is absolutely nothing new. What has been pushed into the media spotlight recently is immigration. I'm not convinced that is coincidence.

There has never before been such a concerted effort to persuade people to avoid vaccines, and on the absurd grounds it gives you autism. That claim came from one debunked "study" so there's a beginning to the movement here. Organized and effective, the movement has done so well as to prompt some pediatricians to not serve unvaccinated patients in order to protect other patients. Pockets of vaccine resisters have had outbreaks; this is not a mystery. The pharma industry (as well as other giant industries) does some shady shit, primarily by keeping out competitors, fixing prices and such by virtually buying off lawmakers. I think it's impossible to honestly believe that vaccines haven't been effective, changed the world and saved countless lives. Giant corporations have their problems, but beware going full conspiracy mindset. On this issue, as with all others, there are some facts, figures and studies available is you care to dig a little.

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6 hours ago, florduh said:

There has never before been such a concerted effort to persuade people to avoid vaccines, and on the absurd grounds it gives you autism. 

 

Actually, this belief has been going on for a long time now. Not sure why all the media attention at this stage of the game, but I've known anti-vaccine fanatics for years. All the ones I knew were Christians.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/5175704/andrew-wakefield-vaccine-autism

 

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/index.php/content/articles/cultural-perspectives-vaccination

 

http://histmed.collegeofphysicians.org/for-students/the-anti-vaccination-movement/

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Exactly, I was seeing the anti-vax stuff well over 10 years ago, for me, as early as maybe 2005, and it was going strong before then. I cannot say who the major opposition was, but it most definitely is nothing new, and honestly, I don't see anything recent that suggests there has been a more recent concerted effort to oppose them. I do know there have been more cases of late than at any time since then, or at least it seems that way.

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The autism angle began with the now thoroughly debunked 1998 study. Eventually social media and a couple of misguided celebrities made it their cause. I remember as a child hearing about some kids whose parents wouldn't let them get vaccinated due to religious reasons, but the organized anti vaccination movement never took off until vaccinations were blamed for autism in 1998. Rather than a religious statement, it is now a political statement and rage against the machine thing for those who need a cause to set them apart from the "brainwashed masses."

 

Most of you probably aren't old enough (my age or older) to have ever known anybody with polio. That's because the vaccines eradicated it. Measles, mumps and chicken pox were experienced by virtually every kid when I was in grade school. Long before we had widespread vaccinations we also had kids with what they are calling "autism" today. They were the slow kids, antisocial kids, troublemakers and oddballs.

 

https://www.livescience.com/64909-measles-vaccine-not-linked-to-autism.html

 

 

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And now there's a case of tetanus.  The unvaccinated 6-year old kid spent 57 days in the hospital, near death and in excruciating pain while racking up a million dollars in medical bills.   

 

Some snippets from the article referenced below.    

 

 

https://www.oregonlive.com/clark-county/2019/03/rare-case-of-oregon-tetanus-required-care-of-100-doctors-nurses.html

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And I read below that of a measles outbreak in Vancouver. Astounding.

 

As a side note - apparently I got measles at 7 months. Doctors didn't allow vaccinations until 12 months. At least according to my mothers notes.

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