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Mike

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I had originally thought that my first post here would be how I changed my mind about Christianity but I decided to write instead about some things I think about after I left. I may still write and share that here some day but there never seems to be enough time.

I will say that there were many things I never looked at very deeply when I was a Christian. It was implied that one shouldn’t question, if not outright forbidden to question many things closely. In fact, it was sinful. Those things I did have questions about I kept to my self but would ponder them often.

It is amazing how your mind opens up and you see things differently when you study these things closer without the religious goggles on!

I am compiling a list of subjects that I never questioned but now see problems with and the list grows the most right at the beginning, in Genesis. How could I not see all the problems with just the creation story?

I have thought in much detail about how the story of Adam and Eve and the fruit and the serpent actually raises more questions than it  answered but right now I want to talk about my thoughts on the clothing God provided after Adam and Eve discovered they were naked.

First of all, this is how God made them, why would they see themselves differently after their 'eyes were opened'? Why feel shame about being naked? Still working on that one.

But after they discovered they were naked they covered themselves with leaves. 

Yet, when God came along he killed some animal (there must have been some extras created just for this) to provide better(?) clothing? What was wrong with what Adam and Eve had done?

Why wasn’t it sufficient?

I remember back then being in awe of how this act prophecies the cover Christ would provide for man's original and on-going sin, never seeing the reality that something innocent dies in both instances.

Adam and Eve took a handful of leaves from the fig tree, certainly not enough to kill it!

God took a life to cover them. How cruel in reality!

And to this day, we clothed ourselves with plant-based clothing more so than leather.

Why is it acceptable and sufficient now but not then?

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Welcome to Ex-C, @Mike.

 

Interesting topic there.

Looking forward to the list.

    - MOHO (Mind Of His Own)

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It is strange, isn't it, that Christianity is afraid of sex and the human body. The Greeks and the Romans, and many aboriginal tribes, celebrated sex. How could something that feels so good and is so much fun be bad?

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19 hours ago, Mike said:

the list grows the most right at the beginning, in Genesis

Yes, Genesis is a huge pile of myths that don't make sense.

A tree he desperately didn't want us to eat from, so he first creates it instead of not creating it, plants it right in front of them instead of on another planet or galaxy, it has magic fruit that transforms our minds from being exactly as he wants us to be into beings that "see" like he does, a snake (from whom apparently all snake species come) that walks and talks takes issue with his warnings and gets cursed to crawl on his belly and "eat dust" (which sounds exactly like a Aesop's fairy tale about why snakes crawl and flit their tongues).

 

One of the sons kills his brother, then goes off to another land and marries a woman or two from... hang on, I thought these were the original people. Where'd the other people come from?

 

Later a group of people want to build a stairway "up" to heaven, god is threatened by this and that's why we have so many languages (there's Aesop again).

 

Genesis also sets up the Abraham story and the critical "enslavement in Egypt" that history shows us never happened. Which means there was no plagues, no passover, noTen Commandments, no ark of the covenant, etc.

 

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20 hours ago, Mike said:

Yet, when God came along he killed some animal (there must have been some extras created just for this) to provide better(?) clothing? What was wrong with what Adam and Eve had done?

Why wasn’t it sufficient?

I remember back then being in awe of how this act prophecies the cover Christ would provide for man's original and on-going sin, never seeing the reality that something innocent dies in both instances.

 

I think you hit on the very reason for it. The story requires a basis for the rest of the story to come later. To control people via a story, you first have to tell people it's a bad thing. Then you have to show how it is bad. along with what they say is the correct way. In modern times, we call it "problem, reaction, solution".

 

Of course, whatever they did would be wrong and unacceptable. It had to be, seeing the god figure had to be correct and be the way to salvation since they didn't want man to get the idea they could cover themselves. For if a man could do that then why have a god? Staying in line with their sales pitch, man could have put on designer silk robes by Gucci and it still not be as good as what a god would provide. It's all in the delivery.

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Thanks for reading this and your comments on it. I am new to this so I don’t know how to 'like' your individual comments yet but I appreciate them.

 

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I think you have to have a certain number of posts before you can use the "like" feature.

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10 hours ago, Fuego said:

Genesis also sets up the Abraham story and the critical "enslavement in Egypt" that history shows us never happened. Which means there was no plagues, no passover, noTen Commandments, no ark of the covenant, etc.

 

It is at the point where the mighty art of apologetics can only "fix" these issues only with the most ridiculous of "what if" senarios.

 

The time has come for them to seek out Marty McFly, Doc Brown; taking the Delorean, firing up the flux capacitors, and going back to 4000 B.C. to repair the narrative.

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On 3/31/2019 at 7:00 AM, KNC said:

I've had too many supernatural experiences to abandon Divinity, or belief in a spiritual realm.  

 

@KNC,

Would you care to expand on this?

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@older, thanks for the tip, I will keep posting and look for that feature!

@KNC, thanks for looking and keeping coming to this site; I have found information, compassion, and support in the words of others.

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Before you ask questions, you might want to check your intent.  

 

What I mean is, do you honestly believe that you will ever find "logical" answers to the unanswerable riddles that consistently befuddle Christians?

 

Most Christians have not read the entire Bible.  This in and of itself should be telling.  If the Creator of the Universe really wrote a book, wouldn't you want to read it?

 

So, it is a fact that most Christians have no idea what the Bible says in large chunks.  

 

Even worse, most Christians do not understand how the Bible was put together.  

 

We do not have the original copies of the gospels; we merely have "early" copies.  (https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2018/may-web-only/mark-manuscript-earliest-not-first-century-fcm.html)

 

The books of the bible called Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not actually written by individuals by those names.  The four gospels were written by anonymous authors, and we do not have the original copies of what they said.  (https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/who-wrote-gospels/)

 

"Eighty-two percent of the words ascribed to Jesus in the gospels were not actually spoken by him, according to the Jesus Seminar... there is a further question for the inerrant view:  Why, if God took such pains to preserve an inerrant text for posterity, did the spirit not provide for the preservation of original copies of the gospels? It seems little enough to ask of a God who creates absolutely reliable reporters. In fact, we do not have original copies of any of the gospels. We do not possess autographs of any of the books of the entire Bible. The oldest surviving copies date from about one hundred and seventy-five years after the death of Jesus, and no two copies are precisely alike. And handmade manuscripts have almost always been “corrected” here and there, often by more than one hand. Further, this gap of almost two centuries means that the original Greek (or Aramaic?) text was copied more than once, by hand, before reaching the stage in which it has come down to us. Even careful copyists make some mistakes, as every proofreader knows. So we will never be able to claim certain knowledge of exactly what the original text of any biblical writing was."  (https://www.westarinstitute.org/projects/the-jesus-seminar/jesus-seminar-phase-1-sayings-of-jesus/excerpt-from-the-introduction-to-the-five-gospels/)

 

The concept as Jesus the Messiah, as believed by the typical Christian, is obviously foolish once you look at what peer-reviewed scholarship has to say regarding historicity.  

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, KNC said:

I've tried to explain to interested people that the spiritual realm is like an invisible network. Just like cell phone service cannot be "seen" but we still communicate with people all over the world.  I believe there is a heavenly realm with a network. For instance, two  years ago I was in a shelter.  I had nowhere to go and no job. (a long story)  Point is, I was still talking to God.  I first had to find a job. I found a part-time job through another person at the shelter, but a certain uniform was required. I prayed, ok, Lord, you know I have no money and I don't know how I'm going to even get the shoes I need for this job. I kept "hearing" I shall supply your needs.  Well, I awoke one morning, "hearing" without a doubt, that I was to go to a particular place (a soup kitchen).  I didn't question it because it was very clear.  I walked to the soup kitchen that day and they had an Angel Closet with donations. A very small room with very few shoes. But I noticed a pair of black work shoes, exactly what I needed, were there.  I picked them up and they were my size.  The exact shoes, the exact size I needed. And they were name brand and practically new.  I have had a lot of practical, concrete examples like this, since 1999. I have also seen a book fly off a table during a particular spiritual warfare season in my life.  I have seen a figure and I have had a figure follow me around.  That was not something that happened very often.  I really don't care if no one believes me and I am not trying to win souls. I am just stating facts about my life that keep me open minded.  Is it that hard to believe, though?  I mean, isn't it possible there are beings more advanced than us, just like we are more advanced than the animal kingdom? Well, sometimes I wonder about that!

 

How do you know which deity or supernatural entity you are speaking to?

 

 

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26 minutes ago, KNC said:

Good question.  I always assumed Jesus Christ because that' s to whom I prayed.  However, this Jesus I pray to and "hear" from does not resemble the Jesus in most of the churches I attended.  In fact, this Jesus told me his death was not planned. He didn't die on purpose.  He communicated to me that he died simply because of who he was...that the world rose up against him and crucified him because of his teachings, much like a bully would rise against a good kid for no other reason than to be mean. This is so contrary to the entire premise of John 3:16, which is why I say I'm leaving the John 3:16 church, but not necessarily Jesus or Divinity.  At least for now.  This Jesus I talk to is a merciful, loving, pure soul.  I have felt His presence in which my whole body could not move but was enraptured in indescribable peace. (that happened in 2011 or 2012)  This is similar to what I've read about in some of the saints' writings throughout history.  Not saying I am a saint or anything special at all. I just know what I experienced. That enraptured state only occurred once but it gave me hope that there really is a better place we may go and experience incredible peace.  I still don't know who/what the figure was that I saw. It did not communicate with me about who it was.

 

Pretend, for a moment, that you never set foot in a Christian church.  Let's say you were born in China centuries ago, and never heard of this so-called "Jesus."

 

Let's also pretend that you still "hear" a spiritual voice and message.

 

Do you think that this voice would be "Jesus"?

 

Hope that makes sense.

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3 hours ago, KNC said:

I've tried to explain to interested people that the spiritual realm is like an invisible network. Just like cell phone service cannot be "seen" but we still communicate with people all over the world.  I believe there is a heavenly realm with a network.

 

A key difference here is we have evidence for a cell service relay. We know how it works and can test it reliably. Can you propose a test that could falsify your spiritual realm?

 

3 hours ago, KNC said:

For instance, two  years ago I was in a shelter.  I had nowhere to go and no job. (a long story)  Point is, I was still talking to God.  I first had to find a job. I found a part-time job through another person at the shelter, but a certain uniform was required. I prayed, ok, Lord, you know I have no money and I don't know how I'm going to even get the shoes I need for this job. I kept "hearing" I shall supply your needs.  Well, I awoke one morning, "hearing" without a doubt, that I was to go to a particular place (a soup kitchen).  I didn't question it because it was very clear.  I walked to the soup kitchen that day and they had an Angel Closet with donations. A very small room with very few shoes. But I noticed a pair of black work shoes, exactly what I needed, were there.  I picked them up and they were my size.  The exact shoes, the exact size I needed. And they were name brand and practically new.  I have had a lot of practical, concrete examples like this, since 1999. I have also seen a book fly off a table during a particular spiritual warfare season in my life.  I have seen a figure and I have had a figure follow me around.  That was not something that happened very often.  I really don't care if no one believes me and I am not trying to win souls.

 

There are several things that strike me about stories like this. First they exist in just about any culture and religion, thus trying to use such personal experiences to determine what is true is pointless. Next is delusional schizophrenic people hear voices and see things. How do you propose to show that your voices and things you see are actually spiritual as opposed to being created in your mind for some reason? Finally, how do you know it's not just your subconsciousness telling you all this? The subconscious mind is a powerful thing and can solve problems while sleeping (Hence people 'waking up with the solution'). It's not unreasonable to posit that you mind is guiding your through all this. After all when the chips are down going to soup kitchens and them having resources to help is not miraculous - it happens all the time.

 

3 hours ago, KNC said:

I am just stating facts about my life that keep me open minded.  Is it that hard to believe, though?  I mean, isn't it possible there are beings more advanced than us, just like we are more advanced than the animal kingdom? Well, sometimes I wonder about that!

 

Remember to keep and open mind, but not so open our brains fall out - Richard Dawkins. Sure it's possible. Doesn't mean its probable or that we should accept such a possibility until its shown to actually be probable.

 

However, beings more powerful than us don't require any acceptance of a spiritual realm any more than accepting we are more powerful than other creatures on earth. It's easily explained without positing unverifiable possibilities.

 

 

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@KNC

 

The words "spiritual" and  "spirituality"  are defined using the word "spirit".  The word "spirit", as a noun, has 14 definitions in the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

 

Not surprisingly, I am often confused when folks use these words.  I suspect many others are too.

 

What is/are the meaning(s) of these words when you use them?

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10 hours ago, KNC said:

But, anyway, a skeptic will be a skeptic. 

 

Yes, and there is a good reason for that. If I told you I sneezed, you would accept that without qualification. Why - because people sneeze all the time, it's well explained and not extraordinary.

 

However, if I told you, I sneezed and fire came out my mouth would you believe me? If not, aren't you being a "skeptic"?

  

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2 hours ago, KNC said:

 

I haven't thought about this in awhile.  I used to read a lot of theology and I know there are all kinds of definitions, biblical and non biblical.  What do I mean by it?  I am pointing to Spirit as an immaterial reality. Some type of life force within us.  There is the flesh/body and there is a spirit within that will go on when our bodies expire.  I don't really differentiate Spirit from Soul, but I know some people do.  C. S. Lewis said we are not bodies with souls, but a soul with a body.  I believe we have a soul that will go on and what we do here matters.  I have seen a figure, very translucent, in front of me.  I don't know if it might be called a spirit being, an angel, or whatever. It didn't speak.  I've only seen one.

 

Not sure I answered the question very well, but I mostly mean Spirit as an immaterial reality within us.  But that still doesn't sound quite right, what I mean. I'll have to think on that some more.

 

Do you think a fear of death has anything to do with your soul beliefs?

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3 hours ago, KNC said:

 

I haven't thought about this in awhile.  I used to read a lot of theology and I know there are all kinds of definitions, biblical and non biblical.  What do I mean by it?  I am pointing to Spirit as an immaterial reality. Some type of life force within us.  There is the flesh/body and there is a spirit within that will go on when our bodies expire.  I don't really differentiate Spirit from Soul, but I know some people do.  C. S. Lewis said we are not bodies with souls, but a soul with a body.  I believe we have a soul that will go on and what we do here matters.  I have seen a figure, very translucent, in front of me.  I don't know if it might be called a spirit being, an angel, or whatever. It didn't speak.  I've only seen one.

 

Not sure I answered the question very well, but I mostly mean Spirit as an immaterial reality within us.  But that still doesn't sound quite right, what I mean. I'll have to think on that some more.

 

Thank you for your response.  Let me repeat what I hear you saying because communication and understanding are important:

 

Spirit is an immaterial reality which will continue after we die.  You equate "Spirit" with "Soul" (I note your proper capitalization of these two words).  You believe you have a Spirit/Soul.

 

If my interpretations of your prior writings are more or less correct, you are a dualist, primarily in Rene Descartes/Christianity vein, at least for the narrow topic that I raised in my first post in this thread.

 

To takes things a bit further, I have a few questions:

 

1)  Do other species of life on Earth have a "Spirit" or "Soul" like you do?

 

2)  What is the composition of this spirit or soul (please excuse my reversion to non-proper capitalization)?  Does it contain your personal memories, beliefs, virtues and/or flaws?  Does it sense its environment in real time?  Does it exist in real time?

 

3)  Does your spirit or soul have a metabolism requiring something to continue to exist after physical death, such as energy or something else?

 

4)  As a hypothetical, assuming you die, what does your surviving spirit/soul do afterwards?  What is its purpose?

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8 hours ago, KNC said:

That's really cute:)  I have heard of spontaneous combustion. Is that fact or myth? 

 

Usually SC has some underlying factor. Very interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_combustion

 

However that wasn't what I was talking about. Aside from the cuteness I'd like you to think about why you wouldn't accept my claim that I can sneeze fire. 

 

8 hours ago, KNC said:

I guess I joined here prematurely. I guess I am not an ex-Christian yet. At least I'm not abandoning Jesus Christ yet.  Or he hasn't abandoned me.

 

You don't have to be ex-christian to join. Christians have joined in the past and we've had many good discussions. No one is demanding you to change your beliefs. We are merely providing things for you to think about with that open mind of yours.

 

8 hours ago, KNC said:

Today I thought about the miracle of my golden retriever. His vet was a top vet in Columbia, SC and he was Jewish. It's relevant he was Jewish because when he couldn't explain the "miracle" (he was about to put my dog to sleep for a serious health condition).  The vet spent weeks calling all his colleagues, trying to find an explanation, rather than accept a possible miracle.  He finally stopped calling us. We told him we had cried over him and brought it before the Lord and he was healed.  I didn't pray a formal prayer or go to church or any of those things. I simply cried and in a very personal way talked about how much I loved him and he was still young and I didn't want him to die.  Early the next morning he stood in the kitchen, wagging his tail, completely healed.  We called the vet and he had us bring him in to do exploratory surgery to find out what happened. The vet could never find anything wrong. It really bothered him.

 

Now, why God heals some and not others I have no idea. A skeptic would ignore the timing of it...the fact that for weeks the dog's condition had only worsened. There were no ups and downs. Just down, down, down.  But only after that prayer, almost immediately, did something extraordinary happen.  Coincidence? 

 

There are several points here:

 

1) Things can happen that have no explanation. People who were very sick become well, dogs too judging from your story. Unsurvivable events are survived. Sometimes the best and most honest answer is we don't know. But people don't like not knowing so often God is inserted into the I don't know part.

 

2) These claims are made by people all over the world from different religions and gods. Each claiming it's their god doing the miracle. This leads me to point 3...

 

3) What evidence do you have that God, specifically your God, did anything, and how/what did that god do? If your evidence is I prayed and Jesus healed me/the dog/found my car keys then you'd have to explain the vast majority of prayers that go unasnwered. Clearly people pray to Jesus to heal their cancer ridden child each day and watch that child die in agony. But for some reason God sees it fit to heal your dog. This is a big problem and 'god works in mysterious ways' won't cut it. People (As you have) claim that God helped them find a job and praise him, meanwhile children die by the 1,000s every minute. If god is real then he either doesn't care about those children, and therefore is a cunt, or cannot help them in which case he's impotent. In either case why call him god?

 

 

8 hours ago, KNC said:

The first few experiences I (since 1999) I might have considered coincidences. But after so many I just can't follow the skeptic road.  (Especially after I saw some kind of being in 2011/12).

 

You saw some kind of very vague being that you cannot quite describe, and cannot rule out delusions, but apparently was.. God? An angel?

 

Do you see the issue with this kind of thinking?

 

8 hours ago, KNC said:

Nope, I can't say I'm a total ex-Christian yet. I'm not satisfied with the skeptic road, the secular humanist road, or the atheist road. I can say, however, that I am not a John 3:16 Christian and I do not believe I am commanded to worship and I am not sitting around wondering about the Second Coming. I don't really fit in with a lot of other Christian teaching.  But Jesus?  If he's the one who whispered Lord Sabaoth to me one night, he's still got me.  

 

So to me it sounds like you are rejecting pretty much everything and going off your own bat to determine what is real. Is that a path that is likely to lead you to determine what is truth?

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On 3/29/2019 at 10:52 PM, older said:

It is strange, isn't it, that Christianity is afraid of sex and the human body. The Greeks and the Romans, and many aboriginal tribes, celebrated sex. How could something that feels so good and is so much fun be bad?

 

That is precisely the problem. Sex feels good, it’s pleasurable. Anything that feels good and gives pleasure must be sinful. I thought everyone knew that.  B)

 

The sight of a beautiful naked woman incites a man to lust for her. Therefore, beautiful naked woman are sinful. That implies the human body is sinful and thus sex is sinful. A basic truth of life. If it’s fun then it’s sinful or illegal and probably both. 

 

Religion is all about being miserable and feeling guilty all of the time. :blush:

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On 3/31/2019 at 7:00 AM, KNC said:

I've had too many supernatural experiences to abandon Divinity, or belief in a spiritual realm.  I believe in Divine hierarchies because it makes sense.  We see hierarchies in nature and we create hierarchies ourselves.  I am open-minded that there are realms we don't understand yet.  Somewhere in that other realm Jesus, a divine being, exists and is an intercessor for us.  But not an intercessor because  he had to die a bloody, horrible death, but an intercessor between one world and another (one realm and another).  

 

When I say I still believe in Divinity and Jesus, that is what I mean. I believe they exist, but all the teaching that has sprung up is ridiculous.  At my current crossroads I am trying to handle my life change with kid gloves because I work at a Christian school.  It is getting increasingly difficult everyday to hear what I hear, but the the people there are so nice and kind.  I still talk to "God" about all this, and I always have.  I cannot abandon Divinity altogether because, like I mentioned earlier, I have had too many experiences and instant results (not just beliefs).

 

I am glad this forum is here. I have had no one to talk to about this, or nowhere to just vent all this.  My decisions are based on serious reflection from actual experience, not just intellectual reasoning. I used to be married to an Episcopal priest. I joined a church last year to give it one more try. I am here writing this Sunday morning instead of being there.  I don't think I'll ever return.

 

 

 

Whatever works for you is the important thing. I think if you're going to have a belief in God it really needs to be on your own terms, not someone elses. And not from some bible.

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3 hours ago, KNC said:

I'm determined to be a good scientist and go where the truth leads. Your premises are different from mine so we won't merge anytime soon. I still begin with a premise that what we see is not all there is.  I have experiences that have not been satisfactorily explained yet, so I am still open and in the lab of life. The translucent being I saw appeared during a very normal afternoon. Nothing going on and there it was in the house.  I was not afraid of it and it made its presence known in a way I do not wish to talk about yet.   In 2010, when some of the experiences intensified, my ex-husband sent me to a hospital. I was there seven days.  No one who saw me in the unit, the entire week, could find "anything wrong." Their exact words were:  "We can't find anything wrong."  No one in nine years, with several mental health professionals, has diagnosed me as being delusional.  In fact, the last one I saw said she'd worked with schizophrenics most of her career and I was not schizophrenic.  When I told her about the being I saw, about the book flying off the table, and other experiences, she believed me.  

 

 

 

A dozen Pentecostals will think something's wrong with you if you can't feel the holy spirit.

A dozen atheists will think something's wrong with you if say you HAVE experienced the holy spirit.

 

There's just no winning. :)

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On 4/2/2019 at 3:23 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Yes, and there is a good reason for that. If I told you I sneezed, you would accept that without qualification. Why - because people sneeze all the time, it's well explained and not extraordinary.

 

However, if I told you, I sneezed and fire came out my mouth would you believe me? If not, aren't you being a "skeptic"?

  

 

If you were a dragon I'd believe you. Then again you never claimed to not be a dragon.

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55 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Whatever works for you is the important thing. I think if you're going to have a belief in God it really needs to be on your own terms, not someone elses. And not from some bible.

 

Here's what it comes down to. And that the believer doesn't try to put their beliefs onto other people. I think what most atheists object to is proselytizing. And, unfortunately, this sometimes goes beyond just persuasion to forcing a religion onto others through extreme social pressure or even legislation. We see that happening here in America regularly. 

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21 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

If you were a dragon I'd believe you. Then again you never claimed to not be a dragon.

 

Not sure that just being a dragon would suffice. I'm a human. If I say I can fly do you believe me? :D 

 

I'd have to be a dragon with the known characteristics of sneezing fire for your belief to be warranted. Otherwise you are just taking my claim on faith :P 

 

Now I do have an ancient valuable object here for sale... at the great price of $1mil USD. I'll message you my bank account details.

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