Mike

Questions I Think About

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3 hours ago, midniterider said:

Then using this tenuous assumption of reality, some will also insist that anything randomly manifested or observed only by you and not them is bullshit. Their contention is that something can only be considered real if ALL beings consisting mostly of empty space at the atomic level people can experience the same thing and of course recreate it on demand. .

 

You wouldn't be strawmanning anyone would you midnite? 

 

I think there is a difference between saying "you are full of bullshit" and "I don't think you have enough evidence to reach your conclusion." Yes? Part of being honest about finding what is true is not getting bullshitted by ourselves. 

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4 hours ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

 

OK, so, what you are processing with is "science like".  You are not claiming that you are using the scientific method.

 

No one is allowed the privilege to suspend pieces of the scientific method and still describe their results as "science".

First, I never said I wanted to be validated by the world of science.  I believe in science. Science uncovers what's already there. I don't believe science and theology are enemies. They both question and desire to know what is true. My worldview can hold your worldview but yours can't include mine. My worldview presupposes that there are other realms/realities we cannot understand or measure at this time.

 

What am I suspending if I am reporting the truth? I would love to know how my journal flew across the room.  Is there a scientific law that could help me with this?  I'll be glad to check it out.

 

I was in my bedroom, no windows open, nothing crazy outside going on.  I know you will immediately dismiss this, but it was after a night of spiritual warfare.  Warfare in the unseen realm I've been writing about.  It was like the being was angry and he/she/it "lost" the battle and so it picked up my spiritual journal and threw it across the room.  That's only happened one time. 

 

I can't deny this experience or say it was a delusion. That would be dishonest. If someone came along now and demand I reject the whole unseen realm experiences or else they'd end my life or lock me up somewhere....well, I would not take anything back because it's all true.  

 

We accept that the sun rises and sun sets everyday. It hasn't changed so far. But if and when that changes, we will have to work with the new reality.  I am working with a new reality and I don't expect anyone to blindly accept what I say.  I totally understand the disbelief. 

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Thanks for the reply. I'm working on this one. 

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5 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

 

Again, thanks for the response.  I suspect you and I have a different understanding of what being a "good scientist" entails.

 

Earlier in this thread I responded to one of your posts and asked some followup questions.  I have not heard back from you about them.  Below is that response and those questions (in a different font).  I would appreciate it if you would address them.

 

Thank you for your response.  Let me repeat what I hear you saying because communication and understanding are important:

 

Spirit is an immaterial reality which will continue after we die.  You equate "Spirit" with "Soul" (I note your proper capitalization of these two words).  You believe you have a Spirit/Soul.

 

If my interpretations of your prior writings are more or less correct, you are a dualist, primarily in Rene Descartes/Christianity vein, at least for the narrow topic that I raised in my first post in this thread.

 

To takes things a bit further, I have a few questions:

 

1)  Do other species of life on Earth have a "Spirit" or "Soul" like you do?

 

2)  What is the composition of this spirit or soul (please excuse my reversion to non-proper capitalization)?  Does it contain your personal memories, beliefs, virtues and/or flaws?  Does it sense its environment in real time?  Does it exist in real time?

 

3)  Does your spirit or soul have a metabolism requiring something to continue to exist after physical death, such as energy or something else?

 

4)  As a hypothetical, assuming you die, what does your surviving spirit/soul do afterwards?  What is its purpose?

QUESTIONS:

 

Dualism:  Based on my understanding of dualism, I'm not a dualist.  I don't believe there is ultimate Good and ultimate Evil that oppose each other and continuously battle things out for power.  Battles of good and evil are fought, of course, but ultimately there is something outside of those battles.  There is a higher standard outside of all the known standards.  

(1)  I believe everyone has a Spirit/Soul, including animals.

(2) I don't know what the composition is.  It makes sense that my personal memories/beliefs/virtues/and/or flaws would be part of it.  It is in real time and space.

(3) I have no idea. I believe the Spirit/Soul returns somewhere or moves forward and evolves.

(4) As a hypothetical, I believe my Spirt/Soul moves on and continues its journey.  What is its meaning and purpose?  I believe we are here to work on our Spirit/Soul.  It is what goes on when all things physical pass away. We see life spring up all the time, die, and return.  We see it in the plant kingdom. And that's just plants. How much more sophisticated are we? Why is the resurrection of a Soul difficult to believe?  It is exciting to me to think of the possibilities.   

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5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

You wouldn't be strawmanning anyone would you midnite? 

 

I think there is a difference between saying "you are full of bullshit" and "I don't think you have enough evidence to reach your conclusion." Yes? Part of being honest about finding what is true is not getting bullshitted by ourselves. 

 

Yes, you are correct. Major strawmanning. My error as well as being overly fiesty. I shouldn't post anything in the morning. I just got fired up over use of the word delusion/delusional. It has a negative connotation as in "you're bonkers." I think we all have some kind of delusion yet are 100% functional human beings. Ok, 95% at least. :)

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2 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Yes, you are correct. Major strawmanning. My error as well as being overly fiesty. I shouldn't post anything in the morning. I just got fired up over use of the word delusion/delusional. It has a negative connotation as in "you're bonkers." I think we all have some kind of delusion yet are 100% functional human beings. Ok, 95% at least. :)

 

Yeah, I think that was the wrong word but I couldn't think of anything better to explain what I was getting at. Basically my point was how can we rule out your brain pulling tricksies on you? I was aware of the strong usage of delusion and was going to address that in her (KNC) reply. I meant in a don't be fooled way, not a you're bonkers way.

 

Though I do think you are bonkers at times ;) :P 

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12 hours ago, KNC said:

 I know you will immediately dismiss this

Absent credible evidence supporting your conjectures/conclusion, the answer is yes.

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On 4/5/2019 at 12:21 PM, KNC said:

The KIngdom of God is a hierarchy of another realm, of heavenly beings.  That's what I've been shown.  Jesus talked about us coming to God as a child and being born again in the spirit. He also spoke of the Kingdom of God as being within you.  ("It doesn't come with your careful observation...")

 

Ok, if we go back to your statement of following the scientific path and having an open mind, how would you define another realm, heavenly beings etc, and show that these things exist? Part of the scientific method is being able to show results to others. Now many don't like this because if you have no re-producible data, or sufficient pile of evidence then it's just guess work. Midnite was hitting at this in his post, and I agree it's possible there could be something beyond our means of scientific investigation. However, possible does not equate to probable. It's possible that we are brains in a vat, or that we are just computer code. But everything we investigate leads us to conclude our world is real, and that it follows physical laws, and thus we have no choice but to assume it's real. That doesn't mean we can simply invent explanations when we come up against the unknown.

 

Quote

I asked God about this on Palm Sunday 2011.  I was driving to a coastal town to visit a relative. At that time I was still married to an Episcopal priest and attending church.  I "talked" to God during the several hours drive. I asked about church because I've never really been "churched." 

 

The glib reply is what did God say? Apparently God talks to many people and his will seems to coincide with their's which I find suspicious. 

 

But seriously, did God reply to you. When you say talked, I'm assuming you had a talk inside your head or talked out loud which is similar to what I used to do? If so did you get any actual reply - and I don't mean a feeling.

 

Quote

 

Later that day I went out to the beach by myself to take some photos.  There was no one nearby and no trees or power lines or anything.  I looked down in the sand and saw a perfect Gregorian shadow cross, with my own body as the vertical part. I took the picture and I got chills, for that it is when I "heard" a reminder that I, myself, am the temple (Corinthians).

 

Do you have the picture? Can you upload it?

 

Quote

Is my god a capricious god? Well, I am open to where the truth leads. If it appears God is capricious, then I guess that could be true.

 

And if it is true would you still worship a capricious god? 

 

Quote

 It may not seem fair why God "shows" some people and not others, but then again,  do you confide in every one you meet? To whom does God confide and why?  To whom do you confide and why?

 

No I don't, but comparing a human who is greatly limited to an unlimited being is missing the point. I don't go an judge people for something I haven't confided in them. God on the other had is sending everyone to hell who doesn't believe in him. So some people he's giving a personal experience, and others he's not, and then saying well you didn't believe so hellfire for you sonny. Do you think that is even remotely fair? We are back at a capricious god.

 

Quote

 

I learned that the Kingdom of God is filled with three major groups: servants of God, friends of God, and lovers of God.  I was a servant and then became closer and closer.  As I was more and more open to growing spiritually, the more I "saw" and "heard."  

 

Again I am left pondering how you could know this? And how do you show this to someone who has different people telling them different things, most of which is mutually exclusive meaning they cannot all be right - but they can all be wrong.

 

To finish off, here is a conversation between Matt Dillihunty and a caller who can't explain life experience except that it was God. (Similar situation to you). Matt goes through the points I'm trying to go through with you.. except he does it better. It's 17 off minutes, might be worth listening to?

 

 

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1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Yeah, I think that was the wrong word but I couldn't think of anything better to explain what I was getting at. Basically my point was how can we rule out your brain pulling tricksies on you? I was aware of the strong usage of delusion and was going to address that in her (KNC) reply. I meant in a don't be fooled way, not a you're bonkers way.

 

Though I do think you are bonkers at times ;) :P 

 

I'm pretty harmless though. I just enjoy weird thoughts. I was in a store once though and went to send my wife a text message and found a message partially written that I didnt write. And it didnt make any sense (to me) either. So I had to delete it and type a new one. I should have taken a photo of it but didnt. Oh well. 

 

Speaking of bonkers, see this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Glitch_in_the_Matrix/

 

I think if KNC has found a kinder gentler form of Christianity that works for her that's great. Or if she is transitioning towards non-belief, that's great too. I understand the others here are helping her using science, logic, evidence and so on ... and that's good too. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, midniterider said:

I think if KNC has found a kinder gentler form of Christianity that works for her that's great. Or if she is transitioning towards non-belief, that's great too. I understand the others here are helping her using science, logic, evidence and so on ... and that's good too. 

 

As my friend says "It's all good" (Usually when he's done something wrong and needs to fix up a mess :D )

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10 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Ok, if we go back to your statement of following the scientific path and having an open mind, how would you define another realm, heavenly beings etc, and show that these things exist? Part of the scientific method is being able to show results to others. Now many don't like this because if you have no re-producible data, or sufficient pile of evidence then it's just guess work. Midnite was hitting at this in his post, and I agree it's possible there could be something beyond our means of scientific investigation. However, possible does not equate to probable. It's possible that we are brains in a vat, or that we are just computer code. But everything we investigate leads us to conclude our world is real, and that it follows physical laws, and thus we have no choice but to assume it's real. That doesn't mean we can simply invent explanations when we come up against the unknown.

 

 

The glib reply is what did God say? Apparently God talks to many people and his will seems to coincide with their's which I find suspicious. 

 

But seriously, did God reply to you. When you say talked, I'm assuming you had a talk inside your head or talked out loud which is similar to what I used to do? If so did you get any actual reply - and I don't mean a feeling.

 

 

Do you have the picture? Can you upload it?

 

 

And if it is true would you still worship a capricious god? 

 

 

No I don't, but comparing a human who is greatly limited to an unlimited being is missing the point. I don't go an judge people for something I haven't confided in them. God on the other had is sending everyone to hell who doesn't believe in him. So some people he's giving a personal experience, and others he's not, and then saying well you didn't believe so hellfire for you sonny. Do you think that is even remotely fair? We are back at a capricious god.

 

 

Again I am left pondering how you could know this? And how do you show this to someone who has different people telling them different things, most of which is mutually exclusive meaning they cannot all be right - but they can all be wrong.

 

To finish off, here is a conversation between Matt Dillihunty and a caller who can't explain life experience except that it was God. (Similar situation to you). Matt goes through the points I'm trying to go through with you.. except he does it better. It's 17 off minutes, might be worth listening to?

 

 

I will try to look at this over the weekend. Thanks.

 

By the way, I thought somewhere in all this writing I made it clear I was no longer worshipping?  I don't believe my God commands me to worship Him. The God you keep referring to is not the one I buy hook, line, and sinker.  

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Just now, KNC said:

I will try to look at this over the weekend. Thanks.

 

By the way, I thought somewhere in all this writing I made it clear I was no longer worshipping?  I don't believe my God commands me to worship Him. The God you keep referring to is not the one I buy hook, line, and sinker.  

 

Just now, KNC said:

I will try to look at this over the weekend. Thanks.

 

By the way, I thought somewhere in all this writing I made it clear I was no longer worshipping?  I don't believe my God commands me to worship Him. The God you keep referring to is not the one I buy hook, line, and sinker.  

 

Just now, KNC said:

I will try to look at this over the weekend. Thanks.

 

By the way, I thought somewhere in all this writing I made it clear I was no longer worshipping?  I don't believe my God commands me to worship Him. The God you keep referring to is not the one I buy hook, line, and sinker.  

 

Just now, KNC said:

I will try to look at this over the weekend. Thanks.

 

By the way, I thought somewhere in all this writing I made it clear I was no longer worshipping?  I don't believe my God commands me to worship Him. The God you keep referring to is not the one I buy hook, line, and sinker.  

I do have that photo and made postcards and gave them away.  I actually did try to upload it for my profile but it wouldn't upload.

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5 hours ago, KNC said:

I will try to look at this over the weekend. Thanks.

 

By the way, I thought somewhere in all this writing I made it clear I was no longer worshipping?  I don't believe my God commands me to worship Him. The God you keep referring to is not the one I buy hook, line, and sinker.  

 

Ah, apologies, I missed that. That in itself raises some interesting questions but I'll wait for your response once you've seen the video. 

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3 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Ah, apologies, I missed that. That in itself raises some interesting questions but I'll wait for your response once you've seen the video. 

Okay, I watched the video.  I thought it was very interesting and the hosts seem like kind people.  I was impressed with their interaction with the caller.

 

However, nothing I've heard so far explains how my journal flew off the table, the being I saw, the things I heard and felt.  In fact, when some of this was happening and I confided in some priests that actually believe in the spiritual realm, they thought I was crazy. Nevermind all the books they have on their shelves from the lives of the canonized saints who, some of them, had some pretty far-out, wacky things reported.

 

I heard and felt some type of beings and saw one that made me feel something from a distance.  Neither science nor the church has answers for me.  Well, some in the church said I must be doing something wrong and I attracted those beings, even after a season of penitence. Needless to say I stopped telling them things because they made me feel worse.

 

I am looking forward to Easter this year. I am looking forward to NOT sitting still and listening one more time about a bloody crucifixion.  I really can't hear it anymore. In fact I asked to work that day.  But I do have this love inside that grew only when I pursued things of God, or things I thought were of God.  If pursuing God made me a more compassionate and loving person, then I am okay with that.

 

My favorite verse is probably I John 4:16, which states God is love, and he that loveth dwelleth in God, and God in he.  Now that sounds pretty reasonable to me. Love incarnate.  Our love and our degrees of love can be "god-like."  

 

I also really appreciated a book by a Roman Catholic priest, Thomas Dubay, entitled "The Evidential Power of Beauty:  Where Science and Theology Meet."  I don't agree with all the theology, but it is a wonderful book weaving science and theology together.

 

 

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