I was Duckiegirl, now I'm SarahinProgress; my dad still doesn't get it.

[JohnnyWishbone]

1 minute ago, Joshpantera said:

 

If you had a time machine, you'd probably be shafted from ever finding jesus at all. You'd probably a slew of various jesus's, none of which fit the model of the gospel character. 

LOL...

 

I did not think of that.

[JohnnyWishbone]

Well, it looks like Jesus would be harder to catch than a leprechaun.

[sarahinprogress]

I just finished reading Toxic Parents by Susan Forward and wow. just wow.

 

it's been a rough 3 days. yesterday my spouse creature came home to me scream-crying in bed because I was finally letting out the anger and grief I have been holding in for half a decade. I was fimally accepting not only that my relationship with my father is really fucked up, not just in my head but really, actually, but that the relationship I believed we had once had was never real, and i knew it.

 

Acceptance.

 

I feel pretty good today, I cried a bunch yesterday, and today I feel.... light. I feel like I'm finally ready to begin preparing to confront my father for his lifelong abuse.

 

 I don't expect it to go well, or for him to hear me. in fact I expect him to blame-shift, gaslight, emotionally manipulate and attempt to shame me.

 

but I'm going to do it, because otherwise, I'll never be truly feel free.

I'll give him the chance to actually prove me wrong rather than just make me believe I am wrong. 

I have never felt more strong or whole, apostate ones.

I finally see the board and I am taking myself off of it. 

 

I'll keep you posted, thank you as always for your support and the hope, comfort, and solidarity you offer. 

[JohnnyWishbone]

6 hours ago, sarahinprogress said:

I just finished reading Toxic Parents by Susan Forward and wow. just wow.

 

it's been a rough 3 days. yesterday my spouse creature came home to me scream-crying in bed because I was finally letting out the anger and grief I have been holding in for half a decade. I was fimally accepting not only that my relationship with my father is really fucked up, not just in my head but really, actually, but that the relationship I believed we had once had was never real, and i knew it.

 

Acceptance.

 

I feel pretty good today, I cried a bunch yesterday, and today I feel.... light. I feel like I'm finally ready to begin preparing to confront my father for his lifelong abuse.

 

 I don't expect it to go well, or for him to hear me. in fact I expect him to blame-shift, gaslight, emotionally manipulate and attempt to shame me.

 

but I'm going to do it, because otherwise, I'll never be truly feel free.

I'll give him the chance to actually prove me wrong rather than just make me believe I am wrong. 

I have never felt more strong or whole, apostate ones.

I finally see the board and I am taking myself off of it. 

 

I'll keep you posted, thank you as always for your support and the hope, comfort, and solidarity you offer. 

You should use this as your profile pic

[sarahinprogress]

5 hours ago, hyperferion said:

You should use this as your profile pic

I don't get it

[JohnnyWishbone]

3 hours ago, sarahinprogress said:

I don't get it

Let me finish this joint, and I'll get back to you on that one

[older]

Sarah:

It's so tough when the dreams we had of a TV sitcom style family prove to be false. I hope you get the relief you are seeking

[JohnnyWishbone]

12 hours ago, sarahinprogress said:

I don't get it

Okay, well I'm fairly straight ATM.

 

I was trying to find a picture of Smurfette, because I had this thought it would complement your profile. I can totally see you as a Smurf, and aren't we all a little Smurfish on the inside.

 

 

[Joshpantera]

On 5/16/2019 at 1:15 AM, sarahinprogress said:

I just finished reading Toxic Parents by Susan Forward and wow. just wow.

 

it's been a rough 3 days. yesterday my spouse creature came home to me scream-crying in bed because I was finally letting out the anger and grief I have been holding in for half a decade. I was fimally accepting not only that my relationship with my father is really fucked up, not just in my head but really, actually, but that the relationship I believed we had once had was never real, and i knew it.

 

Acceptance.

 

I feel pretty good today, I cried a bunch yesterday, and today I feel.... light. I feel like I'm finally ready to begin preparing to confront my father for his lifelong abuse.

 

 I don't expect it to go well, or for him to hear me. in fact I expect him to blame-shift, gaslight, emotionally manipulate and attempt to shame me.

 

but I'm going to do it, because otherwise, I'll never be truly feel free.

I'll give him the chance to actually prove me wrong rather than just make me believe I am wrong. 

I have never felt more strong or whole, apostate ones.

I finally see the board and I am taking myself off of it. 

 

I'll keep you posted, thank you as always for your support and the hope, comfort, and solidarity you offer. 

 

He sounds very narcissistic. All of the gaslighting and manipulation coming from that personality core. Unfortunately, in my family we actually had to push a few relatives out completely over similar issues. As a family. My fundie maternal grandmother was cut off cold in the mid 90's. Everyone had had enough. My mom went through emotional ordeals like you're going through and everyone else pretty much backed her move to cut off her own mother. And we've held to our guns. Over the decades she has tried to communicate but we won't. She's currently dying alone up around Bismark with dementia conditions. And we're going to leave it be. She can never be wrong. Everyone else is apostate. Similar tune. 

 

I'm not saying you need to be this extreme with your father, but you may be depending on how you decide to move forward in your own life. I'm just letting you know that there are some hard asses out there who are willing to take extreme measures against narcissistic fundie relatives. You wouldn't be alone if you chose that path for yourself. 

[sarahinprogress]

6 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

Unfortunately, in my family we actually had to push a few relatives out completely over similar issues...

 

I'm not saying you need to be this extreme with your father...You wouldn't be alone if you chose that path for yourself.

Thank you. I'm learning recently a lot about narcissism and the more I learn the more points I can apply to him. 

We have been pretty low-contact since I left home, as he only really wants to talk about religion and I have no desire to do so with him, especially since he told me he'd become a 'murdering, raping, child molester' without it. 

The only way I'd be able to go no-contact is if my mother also decided to, since she lives with him, and if I want to visit her there I'll have to see him too.

 

So we'll see. We'll see what happens when I confront him for his abuse. I really don't know what will happen. It could go either way.

 

I have a feeling he'll be better for a little while and then get back on his shit, as that tends to be the pattern. 

 

[sarahinprogress]

16 hours ago, older said:

Sarah:

It's so tough when the dreams we had of a TV sitcom style family prove to be false. I hope you get the relief you are seeking

fuck, like I remember watching Disney channel and Nickolodeon and WISHING that I had that kind of relationship with my dad. But somehow I managed to bury all that and it's all surfacing now. It feels good and horrible, like a bone break healing. 

I think no matter what the outcome, it will be like finally removing the cast. 

[Joshpantera]

9 hours ago, sarahinprogress said:

We have been pretty low-contact since I left home, as he only really wants to talk about religion and I have no desire to do so with him, especially since he told me he'd become a 'murdering, raping, child molester' without it. 

 

I hear that a lot from various christians. And the question I have is whether it's for dramatic effect or whether they actually are so screwed in the head that they fantasize about harming people and christianity is the only thing stopping them? I suppose it's a mix of both. And the question is which category the person fits into. I think it's good that you're looking at it in a responsible way and trying to weigh out the potential consequences of turning him away from his beliefs.

 

But if he is extremely narcissistic, who knows, maybe he struggles with urges towards murder, rape and molestation. But I would think that's too damming an admission to be anything other than part of a dramatic effect - while trying to control you concerning christianity. Which is just as equally narcissistic to do. 

 

9 hours ago, sarahinprogress said:

So we'll see. We'll see what happens when I confront him for his abuse. I really don't know what will happen. It could go either way.

 

I have a feeling he'll be better for a little while and then get back on his shit, as that tends to be the pattern. 

 

The both of you in counseling together sounds like a good way to go. Or at least try. But it could be hard to drag a narcissist into counseling. He seriously needs it though. My wife's mother has been verbally abusive like this to my wife all her life and she only started standing up to it recently, in her 40's. But she's made some head way. We grew up seventh day adventist under pretty extreme fundamentalist views and attitudes. And these cults are like a magnet for narcissistic personalities. They really are. And they really ought to seek professional help. Although few of them seem interested in trying. 

[sarahinprogress]

2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

I hear that a lot from various christians. And the question I have is whether it's for dramatic effect or whether they actually are so screwed in the head that they fantasize about harming people and christianity is the only thing stopping them?...

 

The both of you in counseling together sounds like a good way to go.

He told me when I was quite young (because he didn't 'want any secrets between us') that he molested all three of his siblings. I don't even remember how young I was when he told me that.

 

When he found out I was deconverting (or shortly before, but I'm pretty sure just after) he  asked me to read this story with no warning about the content, and I was really happy to be communicating normally with him at all at that point, so i, of course, excitedly read this story he wrote -  about a serial rapist graphically raping a woman who then began to play along and act like she enjoyed it so that she could kill him and escape. 

 

so. I tend to believe him. 

 

My mother recently suggested that the one chance we might have is if  we go to joint counseling so that there'd be an authority figure there(she  intimated), because then he might listen, but she didn't think it would work now, or ever.  

 

I grew up mostly Calvinist,  so there was a lot of shaming and self-hatred tied with superiority complexes and condescension, so really the ideal place for a narc to function and receive supply. 

 

Part of me wants to believe that he is unaware of it, but the other part already believes that he is, and that he has been malicious.

 

It's a hard place to find myself but...I am glad that I can see both of those options now, instead of just blindly defending him.  

[Joshpantera]

5 hours ago, sarahinprogress said:

He told me when I was quite young (because he didn't 'want any secrets between us') that he molested all three of his siblings. I don't even remember how young I was when he told me that.

 

When he found out I was deconverting (or shortly before, but I'm pretty sure just after) he  asked me to read this story with no warning about the content, and I was really happy to be communicating normally with him at all at that point, so i, of course, excitedly read this story he wrote -  about a serial rapist graphically raping a woman who then began to play along and act like she enjoyed it so that she could kill him and escape. 

 

so. I tend to believe him. 

 

My mother recently suggested that the one chance we might have is if  we go to joint counseling so that there'd be an authority figure there(she  intimated), because then he might listen, but she didn't think it would work now, or ever.  

 

I grew up mostly Calvinist,  so there was a lot of shaming and self-hatred tied with superiority complexes and condescension, so really the ideal place for a narc to function and receive supply. 

 

Part of me wants to believe that he is unaware of it, but the other part already believes that he is, and that he has been malicious.

 

It's a hard place to find myself but...I am glad that I can see both of those options now, instead of just blindly defending him.  

 

Growing up, I can't remember off hand any girlfriends from the church who had not been molested by either a church, faculty or family member. Literally everyone I dated had some story. So I sort of grew up very aware of the 'deviance factor' involved in strict religious circles. I think you probably understand why when I see the most pious, I see that as a red flag for closet deviance. They can really latch on to religion as a crutch, thinking forgiveness prayers just might get them by in the end, or something like that. 

 

Since he's already told you that he's molested his siblings then I'd say he's probably not bluffing for dramatic effect. People like that need professional help, not religion as a crutch to their inner deviance. These are basically animalistic tendencies playing out in people because at the bottom, we're animals. Sophisticated great apes, who, are inclined to raw animalistic thoughts and behaviors. Religious systems seem to have emerged as a way of trying to control and curb that. The concept of fallen man and sin seem to come out of that effort, whether conscious or unconsciously, in my opinion. But it's a piss poor method at the same time. Because a lot of people just do it anyways and then pray about it. Rinse and repeat. When in reality they probably need so much more, and from a secular oriented source. 

 

 

 

[sarahinprogress]

7 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Growing up, I can't remember off hand any girlfriends from the church who had not been molested by either a church, faculty or family member. Literally everyone I dated had some story. So I sort of grew up very aware of the 'deviance factor' involved in strict religious circles. I think you probably understand why when I see the most pious, I see that as a red flag for closet deviance....

People like that need professional help...

I completely agree.

I have no memories of being molested but I have lately begun to wonder if I was, because I have very little memory of my childhood, and the memories I do have are all triggered by photographs...but I don't know enough about the science of repressed memories to hazard a guess that's what is going on, or if the memories are blocked because of emotional traumas, not physical ones. 

 

But I definitely felt very uncomfortable being around men alone in or from church, as far back as I can remember.

 

I definitely can agree on piety as a gauge of deviance though, just from living around my father and dealing with his "guilt."

 

Like, how he set up an internet blocker, not to protect me from predators or adult websites, but to keep *him* from his "porn addiction." How he made sure I knew he had a "porn addiction." Again, because he didn't want secrets between us. 

 

I mean, just the incestuousness of our relationship *without* anything physically sexual happening has been problematic. 

 

I really hope that it's all subliminal for him and that this confrontation will be a wake-up call, and that he'll seek help. 

 

Then again, he told me when I was quite young that he was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder, and that the diagnosis was bullshit; A throw away diagnosis that they give when they aren't sure what is up. 

 

I didn't learn until last year that he went to counseling and "got help" for it, when I mentioned to my mom that I knew he had it. She looked confused when I said he had told me the above, like "why the fuck would he say something like that." 

 

So, I dunno. I guess we'll see.

[DanForsman]

Late picking up on this but i’ve read everything and i’m pretty sure this confrontation will be anti climatic and not very satisfying. Parents are just people who were sexually able to procreate so it’s a position that has no qualifications. We have great expectations for our  parent growing up out of a need for self preservation but your father doesn’t seem like anyone interested in learning new behaviors. In the end you have to let go of all the built up anger for your own sake but it isn’t necessary to make peace with your father if it’s a one way street. I  think forgiveness needs to be earned so yes going to counseling with a good objective counselor would be great for you and absolutely grab the chance if it comes but even there I wouldn’t hold out much hope of your father being someone you’ll be ok hanging out with. And with the forgiveness being earned in my mind that means it would only be possible bit by bit over probably years. I can’t see that happening because I think your father doesn’t understand the basics of what it would take and worse he seems to be putting all of his present efforts into changing you. Also don’t think for one minute the old Christian patriarchy isn’t at play here. He sees himself as bending over backwards to please you with the tiny bits he’s throwing your way but if came down to Him actually changing due to pressure from you  that would take more stooping and giving away the authority god has given him than he would likely find acceptable. I must admit that although my father was a much different person than your father we were never able to bridge the gap between us and I most certainly never forgave him. (He came down supporting the molester in a family situation involving my niece and her much older brother in law but we were at odds on other issues even before that.) Interestingly I had it as a condition of our reconciliation that we go to some relatively detached counselor as I felt I was just wasting my efforts saying words that were dismissed or misheard. He never seriously considered this option. We rarely interact after my mother died which sadly was before the molesting came out. Anyhow I think you should continue to hold your ground and if he can’t or won’t come up to some reasonably acceptable standard then probably there is nothing left but for you to let the dream of a supportive relationship go and if something totally superficial and insincere doesn’t appeal then that may be the end of it. He always has the opportunity to change and you then will have the opportunity to reevaluate but your clock is running too and you can’t keep your life on hold for your father to come around. My father died at 94 and he never understood why I wasn’t able to move on particularly when everyone knows that time heals all wounds. Patriarchy and Christianity working together can allow and encourage a father to twist any situation to fit his needs.

[older]

Sarah:

 

Dan makes some valid points above. I think he's made one of the most cogent statements about this so far. Have you thought about just cutting him off? There must be a way you can see your mom without having to interact with him.

[sarahinprogress]

33 minutes ago, older said:

Sarah:

 

Dan makes some valid points above. I think he's made one of the most cogent statements about this so far. Have you thought about just cutting him off? There must be a way you can see your mom without having to interact with him.

I have, and I will. After I've had my say, if I need to.

This is about more than giving him a chance, it's about confronting abuse and calling it abuse. 

I'm not holding onto some hope that he'll change. I don't expect him to. But I will have my say. 

And then whatever comes next. That's what I mean by "we'll see."

[Joshpantera]

7 hours ago, sarahinprogress said:

This is about more than giving him a chance, it's about confronting abuse and calling it abuse. 

I'm not holding onto some hope that he'll change. I don't expect him to. But I will have my say. 

 

I believe in confronting and calling out this sort of thing. If you have the ability to play hard ball with people like this, I'd say do it. This is clearly abuse. 

[older]

13 hours ago, sarahinprogress said:

I have, and I will. After I've had my say, if I need to.

This is about more than giving him a chance, it's about confronting abuse and calling it abuse. 

I'm not holding onto some hope that he'll change. I don't expect him to. But I will have my say. 

And then whatever comes next. That's what I mean by "we'll see."

 

Sounds good. If I was ever in a fight I'd want you on my side.