Unpacking the Delusion

[JohnnyWishbone]

A belief about something can never create any real certainty. We form beliefs about thing's when we lack accurate knowledge, assuming to understand what we don't currently know. 

 

If I visit a casino and put 100 dollars in a slot machine, will believing that I'd hit the jackpot before I walked in the door actually change the odds?

 

Of course not, but this is the exact mindset of the common believer.

 

However, the believer is so absolutely sure their gonna win. This is because they have accepted the very thing they believe in, and when they accept a belief for a fact, that belief becomes as real in their mind's as you and I.

 

This is why it's so hard to triumph over the Christian belief system, and their mindsets.

 

They are trapped in biblical universe they've accepted through and through.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MOHO]

This is sad but true, I'm afraid.

 

I also understand that, even if the above were not true, I would be somewhat arrogant to make a concerted effort to de-convert Mrs. MOHO. I will continue, thought, to attempt to enlighten her when I feel it is prudent. By PRUDENT I mean when I can see an opening that will not result in my having to pull here feet out of my throat yet again. 

[JohnnyWishbone]

4 hours ago, MOHO said:

This is sad but true, I'm afraid.

 

I also understand that, even if the above were not true, I would be somewhat arrogant to make a concerted effort to de-convert Mrs. MOHO. I will continue, thought, to attempt to enlighten her when I feel it is prudent. By PRUDENT I mean when I can see an opening that will not result in my having to pull here feet out of my throat yet again. 

Sounds like you're in a bit of a dilemma. I also have been working at enlightening some believers in my life, and I'm afraid I have not had any success. I've found that using evidence against their beliefs does not seem to penetrate the belief bubbles that they have. I think there is some sort of malfunction in their brain that allows their inaccurate thought process to bypass a reality check.

[older]

5 hours ago, hyperferion said:

Sounds like you're in a bit of a dilemma. I also have been working at enlightening some believers in my life, and I'm afraid I have not had any success. I've found that using evidence against their beliefs does not seem to penetrate the belief bubbles that they have. I think there is some sort of malfunction in their brain that allows their inaccurate thought process to bypass a reality check.

Yup. Trying to de-convert someone who is not already on the fence is a waste of time.

[JohnnyWishbone]

3 hours ago, older said:

Yup. Trying to de-convert someone who is not already on the fence is a waste of time.

You know, I think we need the lab boy's to invent some new technologies that will repartition their brain's or something.

 

I think lasers sound good.

 

 

 

[MOHO]

We cannot, or should not, deconvert them but it IS our duty, when we are certain of our evidence, to point out anomalies in their "logic" for the benefit of those who might be listening. Also to keep ourselves from being exposed to unnecessary propaganda.

[JohnnyWishbone]

14 hours ago, MOHO said:

We cannot, or should not, deconvert them but it IS our duty, when we are certain of our evidence, to point out anomalies in their "logic" for the benefit of those who might be listening. Also to keep ourselves from being exposed to unnecessary propaganda.

There's a fuck load of believers out there. 

 

We are over numbered.

[older]

On 5/9/2019 at 8:24 AM, MOHO said:

We cannot, or should not, deconvert them but it IS our duty, when we are certain of our evidence, to point out anomalies in their "logic" for the benefit of those who might be listening. Also to keep ourselves from being exposed to unnecessary propaganda.

 

Yes. As long as believers keep it to themselves, there should be no problem. Unfortunately, one of the core tenets of Christianity is to spread the word, sometimes with extreme social pressure or even force. It is important to draw the line when appropriate. The most common example is prayer at government meetings. 

[older]

On 5/9/2019 at 12:45 AM, hyperferion said:

You know, I think we need the lab boy's to invent some new technologies that will repartition their brain's or something.

 

I think lasers sound good.

 

 

 

Some of them are going to need a total multiple lobotomy.

[JohnnyWishbone]

1 hour ago, older said:

Some of them are going to need a total multiple lobotomy.

Think about this. Christianity has convinced (About 2.2 billion) people that belief is the highest good, and that it trumps knowledge.

[Geezer]

3 hours ago, hyperferion said:

Think about this. Christianity has convinced (About 2.2 billion) people that belief is the highest good, and that it trumps knowledge.

 

It is scary to think about how easy it is to indoctrinate people, and how many people on this planet are hopelessly brainwashed already. And how many of them are really dangerous people that are willing to kill others in the name of their god.

[disillusioned]

On 5/8/2019 at 11:32 AM, hyperferion said:

A belief about something can never create any real certainty. We form beliefs about thing's when we lack accurate knowledge, assuming to understand what we don't currently know. 

 

If I visit a casino and put 100 dollars in a slot machine, will believing that I'd hit the jackpot before I walked in the door actually change the odds?

 

Of course not, but this is the exact mindset of the common believer.

 

However, the believer is so absolutely sure their gonna win. This is because they have accepted the very thing they believe in, and when they accept a belief for a fact, that belief becomes as real in their mind's as you and I.

 

This is why it's so hard to triumph over the Christian belief system, and their mindsets.

 

They are trapped in biblical universe they've accepted through and through.

 

 

This is me being semantically picky, but I don't think that your issue is really with belief per se, but rather with blind faith. 

 

The knowledge/belief distinction is very difficult to make. If I'm really honest,  there are only a few things that I actually feel justified in saying that I know. Some days, there aren't any such things. I've said before that I think knowledge is basically firmly held belief, and I stand by that. A standard definition of knowledge is "justified true belief", but I think this definition has its own problems. For now, though, that's beside the point.

 

Those who have faith know that they are saved. I don't have a serious problem saying this. Their belief is firmly held. But they're wrong. And they don't know that they're wrong. Their belief is not justified, it's not true, and it is blind. That's the real problem,  in my view. People can know things,  and later find out that they were wrong. But those who have blind faith can't. They're blind.

[JohnnyWishbone]

10 hours ago, disillusioned said:

 

This is me being semantically picky, but I don't think that your issue is really with belief per se, but rather with blind faith. 

 

The knowledge/belief distinction is very difficult to make. If I'm really honest,  there are only a few things that I actually feel justified in saying that I know. Some days, there aren't any such things. I've said before that I think knowledge is basically firmly held belief, and I stand by that. A standard definition of knowledge is "justified true belief", but I think this definition has its own problems. For now, though, that's beside the point.

 

Those who have faith know that they are saved. I don't have a serious problem saying this. Their belief is firmly held. But they're wrong. And they don't know that they're wrong. Their belief is not justified, it's not true, and it is blind. That's the real problem,  in my view. People can know things,  and later find out that they were wrong. But those who have blind faith can't. They're blind.

I think it's quite possible to suspend all belief, having instead an attitude of facing uncertainties by accepting that you just don't know enough.

 

Belief doesn't seem necessary to me anymore.

[JohnnyWishbone]

10 hours ago, Geezer said:

 

It is scary to think about how easy it is to indoctrinate people, and how many people on this planet are hopelessly brainwashed already. And how many of them are really dangerous people that are willing to kill others in the name of their god.

Very true Geezer.

[disillusioned]

2 hours ago, hyperferion said:

I think it's quite possible to suspend all belief, having instead an attitude of facing uncertainties by accepting that you just don't know enough.

 

Belief doesn't seem necessary to me anymore.

 

In principle, perhaps, but not in practice. It isn't possible to undertake any actions without beliefs.

 

Lets say you walk across a room. You do so by placing one foot in front of the other, and you believe that this will allow you to traverse the room. You also believe that the floor is solid,that it won't take an infinite amount of time for you to cross the room, that the other side of the room is a real place, and so on. Now, we don't really think about most of these beliefs; they're in the background.  But they exist. Without them,  we couldn't do anything. And they are supported by evidence and experience, so they are justified. This is why I said before that I think your real problem is with blind faith,  not belief.

[JohnnyWishbone]

2 hours ago, disillusioned said:

 

In principle, perhaps, but not in practice. It isn't possible to undertake any actions without beliefs.

 

Lets say you walk across a room. You do so by placing one foot in front of the other, and you believe that this will allow you to traverse the room. You also believe that the floor is solid,that it won't take an infinite amount of time for you to cross the room, that the other side of the room is a real place, and so on. Now, we don't really think about most of these beliefs; they're in the background.  But they exist. Without them,  we couldn't do anything. And they are supported by evidence and experience, so they are justified. This is why I said before that I think your real problem is with blind faith,  not belief.

I think you and I just might have a different understanding of belief itself, nevermind.

 

Time for me to return to the mothership, for the night.

[disillusioned]

20 minutes ago, hyperferion said:

I think you and I just might have a different understanding of belief itself, nevermind.

 

Time for me to return to the mothership, for the night.

 

As I said, being semantically picky :).

[MOHO]

23 hours ago, older said:

 

Yes. As long as believers keep it to themselves, there should be no problem. Unfortunately, one of the core tenets of Christianity is to spread the word, sometimes with extreme social pressure or even force. It is important to draw the line when appropriate. The most common example is prayer at government meetings. 

And then there are those, like Mrs. MOHO, who utilize the doctrine to attempt to placate their insatiable desire to lord over others. In those cases we have a right to protect ourselves from this abusive behavior and, believe me, it's a daily effort on the part of your's, truely! 

 

I let her get away with little. 

[JohnnyWishbone]

8 hours ago, disillusioned said:

 

As I said, being semantically picky :).

You can pick my brain anytime.

[JohnnyWishbone]

6 hours ago, MOHO said:

And then there are those, like Mrs. MOHO, who utilize the doctrine to attempt to placate their insatiable desire to lord over others. In those cases we have a right to protect ourselves from this abusive behavior and, believe me, it's a daily effort on the part of your's, truely! 

 

I let her get away with little. 

Never give up giving up.