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16 minutes ago, florduh said:

We're chatting on the Internet here because of science, so.........

I don't know florduh, it's like I said, we really don't know much at all. Although I really think that religions like Christianity alter the believers mental state in such a way, that it allows them to use certain chemical/electrical processors in their brain to effect their target's. 

 

An example:

 

I had two Mormon missionaries visit me at home in 2011 (Maybe 2012) I was only involved with that church because of a Mormon friend who lived with me, as he was always inviting these missionaries over. They did their religious run down with me, and then asked to pray for me & my friend before they left. I just went with it, then after that they took off as if they were on some love trip.

 

Now, they were no more than 50 foot from my home when I was suddenly hit by a wall of love that made me feel invincible. The only thing I could think at that time was it was a true experience of the holy spirit, but now I know it wasn't. But once these Mormons had gotten far enough away, that experience left me. But you can see how many people could have similar experiences when they interact with these religious people, leaving them susceptible to believing they have had a enlightening God encounter/experience.

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55 minutes ago, hyperferion said:

I don't know florduh, it's like I said, we really don't know much at all.

 

We know that if you jump off a 6 story building you won't float up.

We know that each generation for every species has changes in their genes

We know that we are not the only planet in the universe

 

So while it's true we don't know quite a bit (presumably, this is an assumption after all), and we don't know what we don't know, we do know that we know a fair bit.

 

Unless you are the sort of person that holds that we can't really know anything... a solipsist. In which case this discussion would be rather meaningless wouldn't it?

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1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

We know that if you jump off a 6 story building you won't float up.

We know that each generation for every species has changes in their genes

We know that we are not the only planet in the universe

 

So while it's true we don't know quite a bit (presumably, this is an assumption after all), and we don't know what we don't know, we do know that we know a fair bit.

 

Unless you are the sort of person that holds that we can't really know anything... a solipsist. In which case this discussion would be rather meaningless wouldn't it?

Possibly, a fair bit here is right, how about the rest of the cosmos. Or how about ourselves, how much does science explain how we think about reality, or dream, or feel, or beliefs. 

 

And I don't mean making an analysis of our human qualities, by just observing chemical reactions that give rise to our human qualities. I mean real understanding of why we have such qualities in the first place, and what they're for

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13 minutes ago, hyperferion said:

Possibly, a fair bit here is right, how about the rest of the cosmos. Or how about ourselves, how much does science explain how we think about reality, or dream, or feel, or beliefs. 

 

And I don't mean making an analysis of our human qualities, by just observing chemical reactions that give rise to our human qualities. I mean real understanding of why we have such qualities exist in the first place, and what they're for

 

Not entirely sure what you are getting at here. Can you explain further?

 

We have a fair bit of understanding about the things you listed, and our knowledge is growing, but then you seem to say that's not what explanation you mean. For example we know how we dream, but we aren't entirely sure why we dream. We have ideas and such, but science doesn't necessarily answers the why questions, and at times such questions are flawed.

 

For example the question "why are we (humans) here?" is inherently flawed as it presupposes that there is some purpose or external intent that we be here as opposed to we just happen to have evolved to be here.

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30 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Not entirely sure what you are getting at here. Can you explain further?

 

We have a fair bit of understanding about the things you listed, and our knowledge is growing, but then you seem to say that's not what explanation you mean. For example we know how we dream, but we aren't entirely sure why we dream. We have ideas and such, but science doesn't necessarily answers the why questions, and at times such questions are flawed.

 

For example the question "why are we (humans) here?" is inherently flawed as it presupposes that there is some purpose or external intent that we be here as opposed to we just happen to have evolved to be here.

You know LF, I am saying that we are far more than a bag of chemicals. I think we are beings that function in 4 dimensions, that we are deeply effected by the process of universal time. Not earth flying around the sun time, real space time.

 

I have this tinfoil hat concept that we have physical bodies here in the X.Y.Z but we also exist in the dimension of time. So once our body dies here, we instantly arrive there.

 

I don't know, these are the things I think of when I'm all alone & looking at the clouds in the sky.

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2 hours ago, hyperferion said:

I don't know florduh, it's like I said, we really don't know much at all.

I think we know pretty damn much, and we have been advancing exponentially every year. Historically speaking, it was but a very short time ago we were ignorant of germ theory, bloodletting was the "cure" for everything, epilepsy was assumed to be demon possession, we never dreamed we could fly, speaking to someone even across town was impossible, we were beset with many diseases that were eradicated by vaccinations or other medical advances. Neuroscience has discovered we can artificially recreate religious ecstasy and trigger the NDE experience thus debunking the woo associated with such things. 

 

Of course we cannot know how much we do not know so it's impossible to measure the success of our total understanding. I suspect we shall never know everything. We certainly won't scientifically prove or disprove the assertions that are by definition outside the realm of scientific inquiry such as the existence of gods. Science doesn't do everything, but it does what it does very well. Absolutely no advancements have come from revealed wisdom of the religions, and we are not better off due to psychics practicing their trade in every city and town. Whatever good we've accomplished, whatever advances were made, we can only thank our imperfect science.

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1 minute ago, florduh said:

I think we know pretty damn much, and we have been advancing exponentially every year. Historically speaking, it was but a very short time ago we were ignorant of germ theory, bloodletting was the "cure" for everything, epilepsy was assumed to be demon possession, we never dreamed we could fly, speaking to someone even across town was impossible, we were beset with many diseases that were eradicated by vaccinations or other medical advances. Neuroscience has discovered we can artificially recreate religious ecstasy and trigger the NDE experience thus debunking the woo associated with such things. 

 

Of course we cannot know how much we do not know so it's impossible to measure the success of our total understanding. I suspect we shall never know everything. We certainly won't scientifically prove or disprove the assertions that are by definition outside the realm of scientific inquiry such as the existence of gods. Science doesn't do everything, but it does what it does very well. Absolutely no advancements have come from revealed wisdom of the religions, and we are not better off due to psychics practicing their trade in every city and town. Whatever good we've accomplished, whatever advances were made, we can only thank our imperfect science.

I concur my friend.

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28 minutes ago, hyperferion said:

You know LF, I am saying that we are far more than a bag of chemicals. I think we are beings that function in 4 dimensions, that we are deeply effected by the process of universal time. Not earth flying around the sun time, real space time.

 

I have this tinfoil hat concept that we have physical bodies here in the X.Y.Z but we also exist in the dimension of time. So once our body dies here, we instantly arrive there.

 

I don't know, these are the things I think of when I'm all alone & looking at the clouds in the sky.

 

I'm not sure what you are getting at in your first paragraph. Do you have any research that shows this is even hypothetically the case or is this a personal idea of yours?

 

Regarding the "tinfoil hat" concept - These are not just things we 'don't know', but these are things we don't know if they are even founded in reality. Once our bodies die we arrive somewhere? That's not something we 'don't know', it might be something that is not even something that can be known because it's not even possible. See what I mean? We cannot know that which is not. It's like me saying I want to know if unicorns have horns. So I search and search. I can't find anything so I still don't know. But if unicorns don't exist the entire idea of wanting to know if unicorns have horns is incoherent.

 

 

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1 minute ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

These are not things we 'don't know' these are things we don't know if they are even founded in reality. Once our bodies die we arrive somewhere? That's not something we 'don't know' it might be something that is not even something that can be known because it's not even possible. See what I mean? We cannot know that which is not. It's like me saying I want to know if unicorns have horns. So I search and search. I can't find anything so I still don't know. But if unicorns don't exist the entire idea of wanting to know if unicorns have horns is incoherent.

 

I'm not sure what you are getting at in your first paragraph. Do you have any research that shows this is even hypothetically the case or is this a personal idea of yours?

I've actually experienced (A long while ago) how do I explain this? Of being in a place of endless light. It wasn't a NDE, it's more like a NLE (Near life experience) something that happened to me when I was very young & very healthy, that caused me to be someplace else. There's something else, absolutely something else. 

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2 hours ago, hyperferion said:

I've actually experienced (A long while ago) how do I explain this? Of being in a place of endless light. It wasn't a NDE, it's more like a NLE (Near life experience) something that happened to me when I was very young & very healthy, that caused me to be someplace else. There's something else, absolutely something else. 

 

So you've ruled out all possible explanations and therefore there must be something else "absolutely something else".

 

How is this any different from a Christian claiming to have had an experience and went to heaven therefore there absolutely must be a heaven? (And God by implication)

 

I have read testimonies of such heavenly experiences, I grew up being taught that heaven was real because people had 'visited' heaven. Now I don't claim that they did not have an experience, but I'm fairly certain its not what they interpreted it to be. How can you reliably test a persons experience? I don't know.

 

So while I believe you when you say you had an experience, due to the lack of supporting evidence, I must reject the concluding assertion.

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" and we are not better off due to psychics practicing their trade in every city and town."

 

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a3199/1281661/

 

Here's a fun article about dousing. 

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1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

So you've ruled out all possible explanations and therefore there must be something else "absolutely something else".

 

How is this any different from a Christian claiming to have had an experience and went to heaven therefore there absolutely must be a heaven? (And God by implication)

 

I have read testimonies of such heavenly experiences, I grew up being taught that heaven was real because people had 'visited' heaven. Now I don't claim that they did not have an experience, but I'm fairly certain its not what they interpreted it to be. How can you reliably test a persons experience? I don't know.

 

So while I believe you when you say you had an experience, due to the lack of supporting evidence, I must reject the concluding assertion.

LF.

 

I was not a Christian then, I had no pressing beliefs in anything. I just blacked out and fell flat on my face in front of a group of people. The next thing I'm aware of is, I'm standing in a landscape that was not of this world. I didn't even seem to need a body there, I was just a mind looking around what was like an alien place.

 

I don't know anything else, but I'll tell you this though. Jesus was not there.

 

 

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1 hour ago, midniterider said:

" and we are not better off due to psychics practicing their trade in every city and town."

 

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a3199/1281661/

 

Here's a fun article about dousing. 

Mr midniterider, what are you saying matey?

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1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

How is this any different from a Christian claiming to have had an experience and went to heaven therefore there absolutely must be a heaven? (And God by implication)

 

 

So is what we experience here the only reality there is? What about the many worlds interpretation? 

 

Do other people's strange experiences have to contain the same attributes as the Christian afterlife? Say there was a temporary glitch in the matrix and hyperferion arrived in some other reality where it was really bright, and say there was no god there (that skeptics could verify the existence of via inter-dimensional communication). It's just a run-of-the-mill alternate universe kind of like ours. And people are like , "what the hell's this hyperferion guy doing here?" Then suddenly he pops back here to our dimension again. 

 

Here's another fun article with videos...these scientists blow my mind. :)

https://www.space.com/31465-is-our-universe-just-one-of-many-in-a-multiverse.html

 

 

 

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Just now, midniterider said:

 

So is what we experience here the only reality there is? What about the many worlds interpretation? 

 

Do other people's strange experiences have to contain the same attributes as the Christian afterlife? Say there was a temporary glitch in the matrix and hyperferion arrived in some other reality where it was really bright, and say there was no god there (that skeptics could verify the existence of via inter-dimensional communication). It's just a run-of-the-mill alternate universe kind of like ours. And people are like , "what the hell's this hyperferion guy doing here?" Then suddenly he pops back here to our dimension again. 

 

Here's another fun article with videos...these scientists blow my mind. :)

https://www.space.com/31465-is-our-universe-just-one-of-many-in-a-multiverse.html

 

 

 

lol, I am so hung over bro, and you just made me feel a whole lot better.

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4 minutes ago, hyperferion said:

Mr midniterider, what are you saying matey?

 

The article is saying that dowsers (psychics) are helping to make us better off. :)

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24 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

The article is saying that dowsers (psychics) are helping to make us better off. :)

Like, in what way?

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40 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Say there was a temporary glitch in the matrix and hyperferion arrived in some other reality where it was really bright,

Sure teleporting to another dimension is one possibility but when we have much more common and easy to reproduce effects with NDE, lucid dreams, drugs, fever, brain trauma, shock, oxygen deprivation and disease then occam's razor says the other possibilities are more likely. 

How about fainted due to dehydration and while his brain was in a confused panic state it gives a lucid dream? With plausible answers to hand I would be hard pushed to accept the alternative. 

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13 minutes ago, Wertbag said:

Sure teleporting to another dimension is one possibility but when we have much more common and easy to reproduce effects with NDE, lucid dreams, drugs, fever, brain trauma, shock, oxygen deprivation and disease then occam's razor says the other possibilities are more likely. 

How about fainted due to dehydration and while his brain was in a confused panic state it gives a lucid dream? With plausible answers to hand I would be hard pushed to accept the alternative. 

Umm, none of those things apply. I was not near death, I was not unhealthy, I was not dehydrated, I was not tripping on drugs, I was not dreaming, I was not deprived of oxygen.

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29 minutes ago, hyperferion said:

Umm, none of those things apply. I was not near death, I was not unhealthy, I was not dehydrated, I was not tripping on drugs, I was not dreaming, I was not deprived of oxygen.

The point is there are many possibilities, I've only given a few ideas off the top of my head but there are many others. Perhaps it was a flashback to 'nam? A syphilis infection? A hangover? Heatstroke? Hypnosis? Brain tumour? Poisoning? Sucker punch to the back of your head? Really there are dozens of real world answers that should be considered before jumping to the more improbable. 

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Hmm, you know what is interesting? In the eastern orthodox mystic tradition visions are to be regarded with utmost reserve and skepticism. They even claim that most of the time they  are dreams, wild overworking imagination so a product of the human or demonic mind. They consider some visions real but if you had this kind of experience it would not be inmediately thought of, by experienced elders, as divine or supernatural. Interesting to see that these people in the desert and forests were well aware of the posibilities of the human nature to produce these experiences. I became  somewhat skeptic of personal experience and interpretation fron such mystical writings.

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53 minutes ago, Wertbag said:

The point is there are many possibilities, I've only given a few ideas off the top of my head but there are many others. Perhaps it was a flashback to 'nam? A syphilis infection? A hangover? Heatstroke? Hypnosis? Brain tumour? Poisoning? Sucker punch to the back of your head? Really there are dozens of real world answers that should be considered before jumping to the more improbable. 

I could have mentally moved inside the quantum world, who knows. What I do know is, it wasn't an experience that was triggered by some religious belief.

 

Although, shortly after that experience, everytime I dropped an egg I would say out loud.

 

"Fucking physics!"

 

But in closing, I guess I'll just have to wait and see at the ultimate end if I will return back to that place in my head.

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6 hours ago, midniterider said:

So is what we experience here the only reality there is? What about the many worlds interpretation?

 

It seems that way. Put it this way, unless I haven't heard the great news, we haven't been able to confirm any other reality. (Leaving aside what exactly we are calling reality here as I see multiple possibilities and what I'm talking about might depend on what understanding of reality we use... possibly not the thread for this rabbit hole? Happy to follow you down it in another if you'd like)

 

The many worlds interpretation as I understand it, and huge caveats as I haven't brushed up in it for over a year, but it's simply a hypothesis. One that has no observational data to confirm it. Am I correct there?

 

If I am correct I cannot say that yes we experience other realities. Until someone can produce some test that somehow distinguishes between a person actually experiencing some other reality, or simply something their mind made up (You've probably read some research on how awesome our brains are at making shit up, and how terrible we are at figuring shit out?)

 

6 hours ago, midniterider said:

Do other people's strange experiences have to contain the same attributes as the Christian afterlife? Say there was a temporary glitch in the matrix and hyperferion arrived in some other reality where it was really bright, and say there was no god there (that skeptics could verify the existence of via inter-dimensional communication). It's just a run-of-the-mill alternate universe kind of like ours. And people are like , "what the hell's this hyperferion guy doing here?" Then suddenly he pops back here to our dimension again. 

 

No that's not what I was asking. I was asking how we'd differentiate between (as I mentioned above) a real experience of "something else" and something the brain produces. Because we have lots of examples of the brain doing really weird stuff, but none to confirm other "something elses'" Some people are very much convinced that NDE's prove the existence of 'something beyond' I listened to an interesting debate some time ago between a person who had studied NDE's and a person who was a neurologist and didn't think NDE's point to anything other than a failing brain. I'll try and hunt it down and post it if you are interested. Fascinating debate.

 

6 hours ago, midniterider said:

Here's another fun article with videos...these scientists blow my mind. :)

https://www.space.com/31465-is-our-universe-just-one-of-many-in-a-multiverse.html

 

Yes, and I've listened to many a lecture on these ideas. The problem is, and the scientists will admit it, is that there is little observational data to go with it. It's not like the big bang where you can see the CMB.

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For the record, QM admits many possible interpretations. The many worlds interpretation is one. But it isn't the only one by any means, and none of the interpretations is actually science.

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3 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

It seems that way. Put it this way, unless I haven't heard the great news, we haven't been able to confirm any other reality. (Leaving aside what exactly we are calling reality here as I see multiple possibilities and what I'm talking about might depend on what understanding of reality we use... possibly not the thread for this rabbit hole? Happy to follow you down it in another if you'd like) Maybe. Do you have an interest in 'what might be' or only facts and evidence? Maybe both?

 

The many worlds interpretation as I understand it, and huge caveats as I haven't brushed up in it for over a year, but it's simply a hypothesis. One that has no observational data to confirm it. Am I correct there? I believe it's only hypothesis. Does this make it worthwhile to think about? Or should it be considered a waste of time to pursue. Not that wasting time seems to be a concern for any of us here. (haha)

 

If I am correct I cannot say that yes we experience other realities. Until someone can produce some test that somehow distinguishes between a person actually experiencing some other reality, or simply something their mind made up (You've probably read some research on how awesome our brains are at making shit up, and how terrible we are at figuring shit out?) What is the test for determining reality? I've never really tested this particular one. Just assumed it's real. Hate to take some other person's word for it...I might be hallucinating this whole thing (haha). Aren't reality, dreams, hallucinations, and any other sensory experiences all a function of the same (possibly faulty) facility?

 

No that's not what I was asking. I was asking how we'd differentiate between (as I mentioned above) a real experience of "something else" and something the brain produces. Because we have lots of examples of the brain doing really weird stuff, but none to confirm other "something elses'" Some people are very much convinced that NDE's prove the existence of 'something beyond' I listened to an interesting debate some time ago between a person who had studied NDE's and a person who was a neurologist and didn't think NDE's point to anything other than a failing brain. I'll try and hunt it down and post it if you are interested. Fascinating debate.

I understand what you're getting at. You feel NDEs are baloney since we can't test them.  I wanted to point out that even though I dont believe in Jesus/Heaven, since there is one dimension here that we do experience, there may be others and they may not (probably would not) conform to what we think of as Christian heaven or this earth or anything else we are familiar with.

 

 

Yes, and I've listened to many a lecture on these ideas. The problem is, and the scientists will admit it, is that there is little observational data to go with it. It's not like the big bang where you can see the CMB. There's not much utility for the average Joe in considering a 'multiverse' that none of us has access to...well, other than hyperferion. :) Lucky bastard. It's fun to ponder though, and sometimes debate.

 

You have valid points, sir. I'm sure I'm a big violator of Occam's Razor, but it's fun to think, "what if". :)

 

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