Get'em while they're young

[Joshpantera]

12 hours ago, LuthAMF said:

Sorry...not a full article but the photo from another site being discussed is decidedly directed to Christianity.

 

Yes, it is. It's outlining the attitude of get'em while they're young, a sort of Jesuit type of attitude. But it's much more broad than just that. It can be abusive. And is abusive in a lot of instances. But religious parents are going to want to indoctrinate their children into whatever religion they happen to believe in. We could be talking buddhist, hindu, muslim or christian. Regardless, getting them while they're young can be an abusive situation regardless of religion, race or whatever. 

 

Our purpose here is to discuss christianity as ex members of christian churches. That's why it's about christianity and christians, basically. 

[JohnnyWishbone]

On 5/20/2019 at 6:07 AM, Wertbag said:

Then you are letting your anti-theist attitude endanger your loved ones. There are plenty of good Christians, plenty who are respectful and decent people. To fail to ask for help and instead rely on a known offender is a terrible decision to make. 

Even if you are worried about indoctrination, that takes months if not years of repetition to become fixed in a mind. Your child coming into connect with religion isn't like a disease they can catch. 

Yeah that's the problem, they think they're good.

[JohnnyWishbone]

11 hours ago, LuthAMF said:

I find that amusing. Ive not had time to "establish" myself. What, two or three days? You may have observed certain things and drawn conclusions and that's fine. I admit I have not made a good first impression. Do I recall you said you're a Moderator here? Ban me if you think it necessary but I'd ask that you not be so quick to write someone off. 

 

Lacking arguments? My points are not even considered. Nearly all have been automatically dismissed but you may say they're not worthy of attention.

 

At any rate, unless you do plan on a ban, I am in the process of writing my introduction which may "calm the waters" so to speak. Is that acceptable?

Why do you have a profile pic of a guy shouting with a bible in his hand? Why oh why oh why?

[JohnnyWishbone]

On 5/19/2019 at 6:19 PM, LuthAMF said:

Sorry, man. I thought we were just playing along with your "antichrist" game.

I'm not the Antichrist anymore, it just does pay enough. So I'm thinking that being Batman will be a better option.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

My personal opinion is that "getting them while they're young" shows a complete lack of faith on the part of believing parents/care givers.  I once heard a pastor quote a statistic that if kids hadn't accepted christ by the age of 19, then it was likely that they never would.  But if jesus really is all he's cracked up to be, shouldn't he be able to "save" them later in life, irrespective of childhood indoctrination or lack thereof?  Indoctrinating children at an age when they are not yet able to think and reason for themselves is, in my opinion, a subconscious admission that their faith in jesus really isn't that strong.  They don't really believe that jesus is "mighty to save"; so they have to do all the work themselves to ensure the kids get saved and stay that way.  Real faith would be to pray over the kids and do nothing more, trusting jesus to do the rest.

[JohnnyWishbone]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

My personal opinion is that "getting them while they're young" shows a complete lack of faith on the part of believing parents/care givers.  I once heard a pastor quote a statistic that if kids hadn't accepted christ by the age of 19, then it was likely that they never would.  But if jesus really is all he's cracked up to be, shouldn't he be able to "save" them later in life, irrespective of childhood indoctrination or lack thereof?  Indoctrinating children at an age when they are not yet able to think and reason for themselves is, in my opinion, a subconscious admission that their faith in jesus really isn't that strong.  They don't really believe that jesus is "mighty to save"; so they have to do all the work themselves to ensure the kids get saved and stay that way.  Real faith would be to pray over the kids and do nothing more, trusting jesus to do the rest.

Yeah, they be smoking they J (Jesus) far too long.

[LuthAMF]

4 hours ago, hyperholiday said:

Why do you have a profile pic of a guy shouting with a bible in his hand? Why oh why oh why?

I have not set a profile pic. That is evidently standard provision bestowed upon me by a Mod. None of those monikers are my own: "Irascible", "Authentic Christian Believer"...

[LuthAMF]

10 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Yes, it is. It's outlining the attitude of get'em while they're young, a sort of Jesuit type of attitude. But it's much more broad than just that. It can be abusive. And is abusive in a lot of instances. But religious parents are going to want to indoctrinate their children into whatever religion they happen to believe in. We could be talking buddhist, hindu, muslim or christian. Regardless, getting them while they're young can be an abusive situation regardless of religion, race or whatever. 

 

Our purpose here is to discuss christianity as ex members of christian churches. That's why it's about christianity and christians, basically. 

That's fine and understood. But when you say "We could be talking buddhist, hindu, muslim or christian." you forgot to include atheism.

[JohnnyWishbone]

17 minutes ago, LuthAMF said:

I have not set a profile pic. That is evidently standard provision bestowed upon me by a Mod. None of those monikers are my own: "Irascible", "Authentic Christian Believer"...

You may not want to view this.

https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/82266-it-all-comes-down-to-how-you-look-at-things/

[LuthAMF]

2 hours ago, JohnnyWishbone said:

You may not want to view this.

https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/82266-it-all-comes-down-to-how-you-look-at-things/

hyperholiday asked about my profile pic. How does this relate?

[adelena4luv]

13 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

This is understandable to some degree. Those of us who were born into christian homes don't have any recollection of anything else. I always realized and understood that my family was simply doing what they thought best according to what they sincerely believed. Even when I stopped believing it, I still understood that they 'know not what they do,' so to speak, when they are brainwashing others. They themselves are completely brainwashed and that just seems normal and correct. 

 

I had the luxury of setting forward a strong enough influence towards skepticism and non-belief that nearly everyone joined me in it eventually, given enough time to digest it all and come to their own conclusions. Which in the end, were merely obvious conclusions that anyone can make if they're honest with themselves. This so called "TRVTH," just doesn't add up in many ways.

 

Brainwashing is always brainwashing, though, regardless of whether or not they realize what it is they're doing. 

 

 

Yes, that is very hypocritical of them to try and hinder or stop another person's so called god given freewill. And very courageous and difficult for them (us) to leave their respective churches. 

 

 

Im glad that most of the people are no longer christians:) I still hope that more christians are more open-minded

[adelena4luv]

13 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

This is understandable to some degree. Those of us who were born into christian homes don't have any recollection of anything else. I always realized and understood that my family was simply doing what they thought best according to what they sincerely believed. Even when I stopped believing it, I still understood that they 'know not what they do,' so to speak, when they are brainwashing others. They themselves are completely brainwashed and that just seems normal and correct. 

 

I had the luxury of setting forward a strong enough influence towards skepticism and non-belief that nearly everyone joined me in it eventually, given enough time to digest it all and come to their own conclusions. Which in the end, were merely obvious conclusions that anyone can make if they're honest with themselves. This so called "TRVTH," just doesn't add up in many ways.

 

Brainwashing is always brainwashing, though, regardless of whether or not they realize what it is they're doing. 

 

 

Yes, that is very hypocritical of them to try and hinder or stop another person's so called god given freewill. And very courageous and difficult for them (us) to leave their respective churches. 

 

 

By the way,can you teach me how to use TRVTH to help other christians to "wake up"?

[TABA]

2 hours ago, LuthAMF said:

That's fine and understood. But when you say "We could be talking buddhist, hindu, muslim or christian." you forgot to include atheism.

 

No, he didn’t forget.  Most of us here define atheism as simply lacking a belief in any god.  We don’t claim to KNOW there are no gods, we just find all the various god-claims to be unconvincing. 

If I as an atheist do not teach my children that a god is real, that is not indoctrination, any more than you are indoctrinating your kids against Hinduism if you fail to teach your children that the elephant-headed god Ganesh is real and should be worshiped.

In an age when lightning, earthquakes, diseases, plagues and famines all have natural explanations that require no divine intervention, a child who grows up without being taught constantly that god(s) are real is rather unlikely to end up being a Christian, Muslim, Jew or any other kind of theist.  That is why I disagreed with a member who urged kids to be taught to be atheists and god-haters.  Simply “failing” to teach theism is all that is needed, along with encouraging kids to practice critical thinking in general.

[LuthAMF]

21 minutes ago, TABA said:

 

No, he didn’t forget.  Most of us here define atheism as simply lacking a belief in any god.  We don’t claim to KNOW there are no gods, we just find all the various god-claims to be unconvincing. 

 

 

 

 

If I as an atheist do not teach my children that a god is real, that is not indoctrination, any more than you are indoctrinating your kids against Hinduism if you fail to teach your children that the elephant-headed god Ganesh is real and should be worshiped.

 

 

 

 

In an age when lightning, earthquakes, diseases, plagues and famines all have natural explanations that require no divine intervention, a child who grows up without being taught constantly that god(s) are real is rather unlikely to end up being a Christian, Muslim, Jew or any other kind of theist.  That is why I disagreed with a member who urged kids to be taught to be atheists and god-haters.  Simply “failing” to teach theism is all that is needed, along with encouraging kids to practice critical thinking in general.

 

 

Ok...he didn't forget. He failed to mention, then.

It's amazing to me that the atheist excludes himself. Every single home sets up on a particular set of principles, good, bad, informed, uninformed or indifferent; each with corresponding results.

You're no different.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

As a general rule, atheists and agnostics tend to encourage their kids to be freethinkers, circumspect, and draw conclusions based on evidence and logic.  These are different than the tactics often employed by the religious: coercion, manipulation, guilt, shame, and sometimes even physical punishment for expressing skepticism.

 

Thus is why atheists, as a general rule, do not consider themselves guilty of indoctrination.

[florduh]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

As a general rule, atheists and agnostics tend to encourage their kids to be freethinkers, circumspect, and draw conclusions based on evidence and logic.  These are different than the tactics often employed by the religious: coercion, manipulation, guilt, shame, and sometimes even physical punishment for expressing skepticism.

 

Thus is why atheists, as a general rule, do not consider themselves guilty of indoctrination.

I think this is a main point of disconnect. Many or most Christians are indoctrinated into thinking there is only "Jesus" and "Not Jesus" and you're either with him or against him. Logical, alternative and neutral positions are simply not recognized; you are doing Satan's work. The neutral act of not indoctrinating a child into the Jesus cult is seen as active evil.

[TABA]

2 hours ago, LuthAMF said:

Every single home sets up on a particular set of principles, good, bad, informed, uninformed or indifferent; each with corresponding results.

You're no different.

 

Well it’s true that atheist homes will generally produce atheist offspring and Christian homes tend to produce Christian ones.  I actually think the kids from atheist homes are more likely to follow in their parents’ footsteps given the rather high rate of Christian-raised kids who “fall away” in their teens.  It’s just easier for us godless types because we don’t have a complex theology that has to be held together: once a single thread is pulled, the whole thing can come part.  Simply lacking belief in a deity is much simpler and more stable. 

 

Which brings to mind the Prof’s comment above:

 

7 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

My personal opinion is that "getting them while they're young" shows a complete lack of faith on the part of believing parents/care givers.  I once heard a pastor quote a statistic that if kids hadn't accepted christ by the age of 19, then it was likely that they never would.  But if jesus really is all he's cracked up to be, shouldn't he be able to "save" them later in life, irrespective of childhood indoctrination or lack thereof?  Indoctrinating children at an age when they are not yet able to think and reason for themselves is, in my opinion, a subconscious admission that their faith in jesus really isn't that strong.  They don't really believe that jesus is "mighty to save"; so they have to do all the work themselves to ensure the kids get saved and stay that way.  Real faith would be to pray over the kids and do nothing more, trusting jesus to do the rest.

 

^^^

Wiser words have never been spoken in these forums, IMHO. 

[Wertbag]

Reminds me of the old saying, Atheism is a religion like "off" is a TV channel. 

[JohnnyWishbone]

3 hours ago, LuthAMF said:

hyperholiday asked about my profile pic. How does this relate?

I am no longer hyperholiday, I am now JohnnyWishbone.

 

Psychic Extraordinaire!

[disillusioned]

I was indoctrinated as a child. Now I'm an atheist, and I have a child. I'm specifically making a point of not indoctrinating her. That's the difference.

 

This idea that atheism is a religion needs to die. It isnt, by definition.

[LuthAMF]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

As a general rule, atheists and agnostics tend to encourage their kids to be freethinkers, circumspect, and draw conclusions based on evidence and logic.  These are different than the tactics often employed by the religious: coercion, manipulation, guilt, shame, and sometimes even physical punishment for expressing skepticism.

 

Thus is why atheists, as a general rule, do not consider themselves guilty of indoctrination.

 It's quite irrelevant that atheists "do not consider themselves guilty". All parents are guilty of either omitting information or over-emphasing other. A true atheist who has been devoid of any religious influence is hardly equipped to fairly teach Christian principles in order to allow his child to "make his own decision" any more than the illiterate can instruct his child in principles of proper grammar.

 

It is an outright disparaging presumption to say the Christian utilizes "tactics" as you stereotypically contrast them against alleged "virtues". 

[JohnnyWishbone]

1 minute ago, LuthAMF said:

 It's quite irrelevant that atheists "do not consider themselves guilty". All parents are guilty of either omitting information or over-emphasing other. A true atheist who has been devoid of any religious influence is hardly equipped to fairly teach Christian principles in order to allow his child to "make his own decision" any more than the illiterate can instruct his child in principles of proper grammar.

 

It is an outright disparaging presumption to say the Christian utilizes "tactics" as you stereotypically contrast them against alleged "virtues". 

Why would this cosmos, this beautiful construct give rise to life without all our permissions, then command us to choose it?

 

Life isn't a choice LuthAMF. 

[LuthAMF]

1 hour ago, TABA said:

Well it’s true that atheist homes will generally produce atheist offspring and Christian homes tend to produce Christian ones.  I actually think the kids from atheist homes are more likely to follow in their parents’ footsteps given the rather high rate of Christian-raised kids who “fall away” in their teens.  Which brings to mind the Prof’s comment above:

A sensible view.

I am one who "fell away". I've got plenty of critique against certain aspects of "religion". But as another famous saying goes, "Being raised in a Christian home no more makes one Christian than being born in a garage makes one a car."

[LuthAMF]

Just now, JohnnyWishbone said:

Why would this cosmos, this beautiful construct give rise to life without all our permissions, then command us to choose it?

 

Life isn't a choice LuthAMF. 

Neither is it an accident or random happenstance.

[LuthAMF]

1 hour ago, TABA said:

: once a single thread is pulled, the whole thing can come part.  Simply lacking belief in a deity is much simpler and more stable. 

A tapestry may lose a thread here and there but does not unravel the work of artistry.