mwc Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 3 hours ago, LuthAMF said: Patently false yet to be expected. This is why I still say ExChristian is a misnomer. Former church-goer or pew-sitter maybe. But a gaffe like that makes it obvious. I'm pretty sure this is why they invented churches and pews in the first place. Just so they could hurl this, lets call it an insult, at the folks who left their cult meetings. "Former guy who milled around with the rest of us occasionally" just didn't have the same impact. mwc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuthAMF Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 49 minutes ago, Citsonga said: I didn't undo anything. Christianity undoes itself. You repeating the claim that Christianity is true doesn't make it true, despite the fact that the indoctrinated can't see it. That is correct. You didnt undo and you only laughably think "Christianity undoes itself" because you never understood it. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuthAMF Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 23 minutes ago, mwc said: I'm pretty sure this is why they invented churches and pews in the first place. Just so they could hurl this, lets call it an insult, at the folks who left their cult meetings. "Former guy who milled around with the rest of us occasionally" just didn't have the same impact. mwc So show how the silly statement is not a gaffe. Easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 6 minutes ago, LuthAMF said: So show how the silly statement is not a gaffe. Easy. Are you making an assertion that if a person defines theology incorrectly or in a colloquial fashion (I'm assuming that this is the "silly statement" you're referring to) that this same person could have never been a xian? If that's what you're saying then the entire xian world is going to be in some real trouble. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 25, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted July 25, 2019 34 minutes ago, LuthAMF said: you only laughably think "Christianity undoes itself" because you never understood it. End of story. But he doesn't mean you were never a True christian... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 1 hour ago, LuthAMF said: That is correct. You didnt undo and you only laughably think "Christianity undoes itself" because you never understood it. End of story. That's the way I thought when I was a Christian, too. You're just as blinded as I was. End of story. P.S. -- Everyone who knew me as a Christian (most of whom are Christians themselves) would disagree with your ignorant claim that I didn't understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 1 hour ago, mwc said: I'm pretty sure this is why they invented churches and pews in the first place. Just so they could hurl this, lets call it an insult, at the folks who left their cult meetings. "Former guy who milled around with the rest of us occasionally" just didn't have the same impact. mwc While walking down the street one day I thought, hey, there's a church. I think I will just go there for no reason for the next 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuthAMF Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 1 hour ago, mwc said: I'm pretty sure this is why they invented churches and pews in the first place. Just so they could hurl this, lets call it an insult, at the folks who left their cult meetings. "Former guy who milled around with the rest of us occasionally" just didn't have the same impact. mwc Why is this insulting to You? This is your Badge of Honor to say you saw the cult for what it is and abandoned it. But it's just odd to me that if you're going to say you've refuted a thing, you ought to be able to accurately define and explain what it is you think you've refuted. So Citsonga made a serious blunder in describing what he thinks is Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 6 minutes ago, LuthAMF said: So Citsonga made a serious blunder in describing what he thinks is Christianity. No, I didn't. I didn't even describe Christianity, let alone inaccurately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuthAMF Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 1 hour ago, mwc said: Are you making an assertion that if a person defines theology incorrectly or in a colloquial fashion (I'm assuming that this is the "silly statement" you're referring to) that this same person could have never been a xian? If that's what you're saying then the entire xian world is going to be in some real trouble. mwc Not at all. I'm saying those who claim to be Christian ought to be subject to correction when necessary. When they persist in holding to their own unbiblical (And silly) notions, it CAN certainly be questioned whether or not they are genuine. The woeful state of the majority of churches which allow all and examine none produces church-goers, not Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuthAMF Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 5 hours ago, LuthAMF said: They merely study humans' opinions about God, thus developing opinions of opinions. This is the "silly statement" that I said is patently false and leads me to question what in the world you did "In church" and how you think this statement is "true". Yours is a most anti Christian statement and you DONT even recognize how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 25, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted July 25, 2019 When I went to college the first time, I took Systematic Theoligy I, II, and III. Three semesters of Systematic Theology. We studied the works of Karl Barth, Kierkegaard, Aquinas, and even C.S. Lewis. I'm pretty sure those guys were people. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuthAMF Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 15 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: When I went to college the first time, I took Systematic Theoligy I, II, and III. Three semesters of Systematic Theology. We studied the works of Karl Barth, Kierkegaard, Aquinas, and even C.S. Lewis. I'm pretty sure those guys were people. Who says they werent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 25, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted July 25, 2019 That tells me that you as a sceptic are willing, in the face of ANY fact, to say, "Yeah but what if..." ~Luth Yeah, but what if Luth were actually able to produce any facts, instead of just spitting out the same unfounded assertions every other apologist spits? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 49 minutes ago, LuthAMF said: This is the "silly statement" that I said is patently false and leads me to question what in the world you did "In church" and how you think this statement is "true". Yours is a most anti Christian statement and you DONT even recognize how. What did you do in church? What did we do in church? Lets see what is different and what is the same? What do people usually do in church? What I did in church: Worshiped Jesus. Sang praises to Jesus. Read the Bible. Discussed the bible. Listened to sermons. Everyone , could you give us a quick run down of what you did in church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 48 minutes ago, LuthAMF said: Why is this insulting to You? This is your Badge of Honor to say you saw the cult for what it is and abandoned it. But it's just odd to me that if you're going to say you've refuted a thing, you ought to be able to accurately define and explain what it is you think you've refuted. So Citsonga made a serious blunder in describing what he thinks is Christianity. I'll start at the end of what you said here. I may have missed it but I don't recall seeing any description of xianity but I did see him talk about theology round about the point I jumped in. Are these things synonymous in your mind? As for the rest some folks take insult, and rightly so, for being called frauds or impostors. This is what is happening when someone says that they simply went to the meetings but never truly belonged to the group nor holding a basic understanding of the group. This can be the case no matter the group not just this particular religious one. What this means is once a person joins any group that they could never, for any reason, leave that group. If they were to ever do so they then never truly were a part of that group and they never actually held any understanding of the teachings of that group. To try to refute that group would never make sense since it would always be the case, as the person who has left, they never knew and/or understood the group to begin with. Any argument would always be from ignorance. Since this cannot be the case given how many times this has happened throughout history including modern times where people have joined groups, then left those same said groups with full and complete knowledge of those same groups, it stands to reason that people can join a group and sincerely be a full and complete part of that group but ultimately leave that same group without having been a fraud or impostor. To think that this would only be the case in xianity is a case of special pleading otherwise society, and all groups, would have to be full of these same sort of impostors. mwc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 25, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted July 25, 2019 34 minutes ago, LuthAMF said: Who says they werent? Nobody. Who missed my point? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 9 minutes ago, midniterider said: What did you do in church? What did we do in church? Lets see what is different and what is the same? What do people usually do in church? What I did in church: Worshiped Jesus. Sang praises to Jesus. Read the Bible. Discussed the bible. Listened to sermons. Everyone , could you give us a quick run down of what you did in church? Plotted my escape. I was an impostor after all. I couldn't comprehend the intricacies of "if you believe this story you'll get this thing." mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 1 hour ago, LuthAMF said: Not at all. I'm saying those who claim to be Christian ought to be subject to correction when necessary. When they persist in holding to their own unbiblical (And silly) notions, it CAN certainly be questioned whether or not they are genuine. The woeful state of the majority of churches which allow all and examine none produces church-goers, not Christians. I realize that you're invoking the whole No True Scotsman fallacy here but you'll probably disagree. But you did just say that most churches, which say they're xian, really aren't xians. So I'm to believe that you, the self-declared xian, should be better able to judge this than all the other self-declared xians. Perhaps by their standards you're not a xian? But that doesn't really matter, right? Because they're not really xians so who cares? I imagine they care as much about your opinion too. I imagine the appeal to end-times and judgement comes into play round about that point. Then people will know and care who was right. You should really define "correction" for me though. You claim to be a xian. Are you sure your notions aren't silly? Are you sure you're not in the category of "church-goer" (whether or not you go regularly to church or not)? I just need to know how to verify, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you are a xian. mwc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 25, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted July 25, 2019 35 minutes ago, midniterider said: What did you do in church? What did we do in church? Lets see what is different and what is the same? What do people usually do in church? What I did in church: Worshiped Jesus. Sang praises to Jesus. Read the Bible. Discussed the bible. Listened to sermons. Everyone , could you give us a quick run down of what you did in church? I did all of those things, plus: Led one of the men's ministries Led one of the evangelism teams Led one of the weekly prayer meetings Led youth group bible studies Gave both tithes and offerings Supported foreign missionaries Went on several missions trips Prayed for a godly helpmate I'm sure there was more; but this should be enough to convince even the most skeptical mind that I was never a True fucking Scotsman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, mwc said: I realize that you're invoking the whole No True Scotsman fallacy here but you'll probably disagree. But you did just say that most churches, which say they're xian, really aren't xians. So I'm to believe that you, the self-declared xian, should be better able to judge this than all the other self-declared xians. Perhaps by their standards you're not a xian? But that doesn't really matter, right? Because they're not really xians so who cares? I imagine they care as much about your opinion too. I imagine the appeal to end-times and judgement comes into play round about that point. Then people will know and care who was right. You should really define "correction" for me though. You claim to be a xian. Are you sure your notions aren't silly? Are you sure you're not in the category of "church-goer" (whether or not you go regularly to church or not)? I just need to know how to verify, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you are a xian. mwc Does he know the secret handshake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 47 minutes ago, midniterider said: Does he know the secret handshake? Since we were clearly evil it won't be a problem if I post ours. It was a finger in the nail holes to warm up then finish by shoving our whole hand in the side. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuthAMF Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 1 hour ago, mwc said: I'll start at the end of what you said here. I may have missed it but I don't recall seeing any description of xianity but I did see him talk about theology round about the point I jumped in. Are these things synonymous in your mind? As for the rest some folks take insult, and rightly so, for being called frauds or impostors. This is what is happening when someone says that they simply went to the meetings but never truly belonged to the group nor holding a basic understanding of the group. This can be the case no matter the group not just this particular religious one. What this means is once a person joins any group that they could never, for any reason, leave that group. If they were to ever do so they then never truly were a part of that group and they never actually held any understanding of the teachings of that group. To try to refute that group would never make sense since it would always be the case, as the person who has left, they never knew and/or understood the group to begin with. Any argument would always be from ignorance. Since this cannot be the case given how many times this has happened throughout history including modern times where people have joined groups, then left those same said groups with full and complete knowledge of those same groups, it stands to reason that people can join a group and sincerely be a full and complete part of that group but ultimately leave that same group without having been a fraud or impostor. To think that this would only be the case in xianity is a case of special pleading otherwise society, and all groups, would have to be full of these same sort of impostors. mwc If you "joined a group" and called yourself Christians, you joined a group. It seems you want to claim that it's the equivalent of the Manson Clan or the Mafia where people got involved or recruited or coerced into spending significant time within those organizations but then left. Is that what you're saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 1 minute ago, LuthAMF said: If you "joined a group" and called yourself Christians, you joined a group. It seems you want to claim that it's the equivalent of the Manson Clan or the Mafia where people got involved or recruited or coerced into spending significant time within those organizations but then left. Is that what you're saying? It seems that's what you are hearing. I made no such comparisons but if you believe that xianity the Mafia or Manson's are comparable then I can't stop you. So I suppose we'll use your examples since you find them to be equivalent. That being said since you seem to find xianity to be the same as the Mafia or the Manson cult then if someone truly believed in what, lets say Charles Manson had to say and offer, but at some point left are we supposed to say this person truly wasn't a part of cult? That they were just faking it the whole time? We should just heap on them all the things that you might heap on all the people you say aren't truly xian? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuthAMF Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: I did all of those things, plus: Led one of the men's ministries Led one of the evangelism teams Led one of the weekly prayer meetings Led youth group bible studies Gave both tithes and offerings Supported foreign missionaries Went on several missions trips Prayed for a godly helpmate I'm sure there was more; but this should be enough to convince even the most skeptical mind that I was never a True fucking Scotsman. Dan Barker did a whole lotta things too. He got obliterated in debate yet still does his thing over at FFRF. Dilahunty was gonna be a minister. Have you heard the bilge that pours out of him? So why List your credentials? I still expect you to state sound Christian doctrine (There is such a thing) and then refute it. I see no one doing so here. Straw men, but nothing solid. Telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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