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Side Gallery: LuthAMF vs Joshpantera

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1 hour ago, sdelsolray said:

Notice how poster LuthAMF demands those who he perceives as disagreeing with him to guess at what his "sound Christian doctrine" is precisely, state it and then refute it.  

 

Normal rational discourse requests that LuthAMF state what his "sound Christian doctrine" actually is, to him at least, and then support it.  In 237 posts on this forum he has utterly failed to do so, despite repeated requests.

 

Once again, this one is an empty suit...full of himself, and full of shit.  I could go on, but he is not worth the time.

 

Luth's doctrine is the same doctrine that every other mainstream church offers...which is the same stuff that was fed to all of us. Which is why he keeps avoiding the question with his bluster. He has nothing new to sell us...if he did, he'd have dropped it on us already. 

 

Luth reminds me of another Christian in the past who supposedly had some 'special' information , but we weren't special enough to know it, or couldnt understand it or some other absurd reason he wouldn't present it...the real reason he didnt tell us of course was because he didn't actually have any special information. 

 

Luth thinks we're gullible, I guess. 

 

Similarly, Luth won't answer my question about what he does in church because he knows that churches all teach the same basic thing and everyone does the same thing there. For all anyone knows some Ex-Christians could have gone to THE SAME church he goes to now, yet fell away.

 

We didnt open our own special Church of Unsound Doctrine. Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. We all went to churches just like yours, Luth. 

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22 minutes ago, LuthAMF said:

Thank you. Now goodbye. Bye de bye, blowhard. You haven't a clue either. Strut around like you've just pinned me to the mat...primp in the mirror , now. Strut and flex. Oooooo. So good. Love that mirror  doncha. The "full of himself" is in the mirror,  pal.

 

Folks, notice the rage and anger poster LuthAMF now exhibits.  I suspect it is simply due to me calling him out as an empty suit and by concluding (once again) that he is a little shit.

 

And his attempts at projection and dismissal are amusing.

 

Most telling, however, is his statement, "You haven't a clue either".  Any rational thinker would consider this an admission that poster LuthAMF doesn't have a clue himself.  That explains much, as is quite funny.

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26 minutes ago, disillusioned said:

 

I claim no high ground, but it bears noting that you know nothing about me. You don't know what I used to believe,  and you don't know what I believe now. Nevertheless, feel free to speculate. You might even get a few things right. That does not change the fact that you are not comporting yourself here in a way that is consistent with biblical teaching. And I'd hazard to guess that you know this. It doesn't matter to me very much. Be a jerk if you want. I don't care. But you shouldn't be surprised if people don't take you seriously when it is apparent that you don't take your own holy book seriously.

Right. I'm sure you're just wringing your hands wishing someone would come along and save you from your unbelief.  You really want to but you just can't, Right?

 

If you claim no high ground then you would not lecture me. Thats the driving force behind ExC : "We now see the truth and those poor pitiful Christians...if they only knew what we know..."

 

Bag you sanctimonious crap.

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32 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

Folks, notice the rage and anger poster LuthAMF now exhibits.  I suspect it is simply due to me calling him out as an empty suit and by concluding (once again) that he is a little shit.

 

Rage. Oh please.

Yeah you really hurt my feelings by 'calling me out".

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1 hour ago, midniterider said:

 

Luth's doctrine is the same doctrine that every other mainstream church offers...which is the same stuff that was fed to all of us. Which is why he keeps avoiding the question with his bluster. He has nothing new to sell us...if he did, he'd have dropped it on us already. 

Biblical truth is biblical truth. And error is to be exposed. Who knows what you were taught. "Mainstream" churches are becoming cesspools so I have every right to suspect you were infected. Women pastors. Homosexual leadership. Man centered preaching. Tell me how you stood against these things. Or were you one of the wimps who caved?

 

Luth reminds me of another Christian in the past who supposedly had some 'special' information

I have no special information. We preach Christ and Him Crucified. Problem?

 

but we weren't special enough to know it, or couldnt understand it or some other absurd reason he wouldn't present it...the real reason he didnt tell us of course was because he didn't actually have any special information. 

The real reason is there are such things as truth and error. I'm sorry you couldn't tell the difference and ended up apostate. I have no special information. I leave that to the Mormons and Kabbalists.

Luth thinks we're gullible, I guess. 

Luth simply wonders what in the world you were taught that you're so viciously defiant over.

Similarly, Luth won't answer my question about what he does in church because he knows that churches all teach the same basic thing and everyone does the same thing there.

Sure I will. But are you telling me that every mainstream church conducts worship the same? Do you even know what worship is? When churches become stage shows and introduce almost anything to draw a crowd? And teach the same basic thing? Ever heard Joel Osteen?

Sure we sing. We pray. We confess sin. We observe a solemn Table. We preach expository verse by verse through scripture. Did your church do that? Or did you get pep talks?

For all anyone knows some Ex-Christians could have gone to THE SAME church he goes to now, yet fell away.

Proving What? That an apostate exists in my church? Big surprise. Again, truth and error exist side by side. Sound teaching exposes error.

We didnt open our own special Church of Unsound Doctrine. Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. We all went to churches just like yours, Luth. 

Then maybe the problem ain't with the church. It's you. 

YOU make the claim it's all the same. So why did Christ condemn some Churches as unfaithful and commend some as true?

Come on. Be honest.

 

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1 hour ago, sdelsolray said:

"You haven't a clue either".  

"Either"...meaning like most of your cohorts here. Do I have all the answers? Nope. But I just can't get any one here to tell me what exactly they believed and what "evidence" turned them against it.

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Thanks for the in-depth reply and answering my question.

 

 

My church had a male heterosexual pastor. No women were pastors. I personally dont know why a homosexual or a female could not teach "The Word." Do you? Other than "the bible says so." But it was pretty conservative at my church. 

 

We preach Christ and Him Crucified. Problem? That's basically what I learned and believed. Until after a while it got annoying. Probably because I was not born and raised as a Christian. I was raised to question things. To question authority. :) As a Christian I was expected to believe that I was a child of God...but a sinner....God created me with a sex drive, but dont have lustful thoughts. A thought was the same as an action. Sorry, I just dont agree with that. 

 

Sure we sing. We pray. We confess sin. We observe a solemn Table. We preach expository verse by verse through scripture. Did your church do that? Or did you get pep talks? On Sundays were the generic sermons which was some message backed up by scripture. On Wednesdays and at home groups we did expository verse by verse examination of scripture. I did worship Jesus. I'm not going to accept blame for deconverting. The major doctrine of a God that acts like a child, inherited sin, sin that harms nobody and substitutionary atonement is nonsense and I got tired of conforming my thought and action to that nonsense. Later on I came here and discovered there is much more nonsense in the bible than I ever knew as a Christian. There may be a God, but I would hope he is a superior being, not a grumpy old man like in the Bible. If I was made in the image and likeness of the God of the Bible, why arent I a jealous, homicidal maniac? 

 

So why did Christ condemn some Churches as unfaithful and commend some as true?

Come on. Be honest. Why did Gandalf use a staff while Harry Potter used a magic wand? I guess that's what the writer wanted. 

 

I think it's dishonest to say we were never real or true Christians when we did the same things as other Christians and worshiped Jesus with our hearts. The True Christian Fallacy is a convenient lie Christians tell themselves so they don't have to deal with the very real possibility that they themselves one day may think their faith is nonsense and end up like us. Come on, be honest. 

 

Enjoy your faith. If it works for you, that's great. It just didnt work for me. And it isnt' because I didnt pray/worship/read the bible hard enough. Maybe it's because the other half of the equation didn't do anything at all. 

 

I may be wrong but I get the idea that you don't like a New Agey Happy God that spreads kindness and love to people. Happy God would be my preference, though. :) 

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     So far Luth hasn't given me any sound doctrine that I haven't seen before.  In my years in school or church.  I guess I'll need some more examples.

 

          mwc

 

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god seems to be scraping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to sending us apologists these days.  Bless his heart. 

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8 hours ago, LuthAMF said:

Right. I'm sure you're just wringing your hands wishing someone would come along and save you from your unbelief.  You really want to but you just can't, Right?

 

Not at all. I didn't say this, and I didn't imply it. In my opinion,  your attempt at sarcasm would probably work better if it was somewhat based on something that I actually said. This seems to be generally how these things work best. See Exhibit A, below.

 

8 hours ago, LuthAMF said:

If you claim no high ground then you would not lecture me.

 

This isn't true. I claim no high ground because I don't think there is high ground to be claimed. And also because I'm very aware that I can be a jerk too. This has little to do with the fact that you are behaving in a way that is inconsistent with the teachings of your religion. Pointing this out hardly constitutes lecturing. Carry on if you like. I don't care. I'm just pointing out the irony.

 

8 hours ago, LuthAMF said:

Thats the driving force behind ExC : "We now see the truth and those poor pitiful Christians...if they only knew what we know..."

 

Glad to see you've got us all figured out.

(Exhibit A)

 

8 hours ago, LuthAMF said:

Bag you sanctimonious crap.

 

Don't call me bag, you priggish stool!

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17 hours ago, LuthAMF said:

This is the "silly statement" that I said is patently false and leads me to question what in the world you did "In church" and how you think this statement is "true".

 

Yours is a most anti Christian statement and you DONT even recognize how.

 

Of course I DO recognize that the statement is in opposition to Christianity. You fail to recognize that the "ex" in "ex-christian" indicates that our beliefs have changed. You err greatly when you act as though our current thoughts on Christianity are indicative of what we thought when we were Christians. If our current views had always been our views, then we never would have been Christians.

 

Your expectation that we should discuss Christianity in a way that's pleasing to you as a Christian is every bit as ridiculous as a Muslim expecting ex-muslims to discuss Islam in a way that's pleasing to Muslims. It simply won't happen because we no longer believe what we used to believe.

 

Stop pretending that our current views represent our past views. Our perspectives have changed.

 

(By the way, you screwed up the quotation in your post. You made it look like you were quoting yourself.)

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Luth, here are a couple things I recently came across. I'm curious about your thoughts on them.

 

Quote

Can A Christian Lose His/Her Salvation?

 

            The Bible tells us that we were saved by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8). We were buried with Christ through baptism into death in order that we may "live a new life" (Romans 6:4) and that "the body of sin might be done away with" (Romans 6:6). And, since "our old self was crucified with Him" (Romans 6:6), we have been "freed from sin" (Romans 6:7). "Since Christ was raised from the dead, He cannot die again" (Romans 6:9), and we are to, "in the same way," count ourselves "dead to sin but alive to God" (Romans 6:11), and to not let sin master us, because we are "not under law, but under grace" (Romans 6:14). Christ came to "set us free" from the law (Galatians 5:1).

            We also read that no one who continues in a lifestyle of sin has "either seen Him or known Him" (1 John 3:6). "We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" (Romans 6:2) "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him" (1 John 3:9). These are clearly referring to a deliberate continuance in sin. Of course, this is not to say that Christians never commit any sin, for even the Apostle Paul had struggles with sin. It is significant to note, though, that the sins he struggled with were not things he wanted to do, but rather were things he actually hated (Romans 7:15). Why did he hate sin? It was his desire to please God, for he was "crucified with Christ" and he no longer lived, but Christ lived in him (Galatians 2:20).

            Though we struggle with sin, we are clothed in Christ's righteousness (1 Corinthians 1:30) and thus are "made perfect forever" (Hebrews 10:14). This righteousness is "by faith from first to last" (Romans 1:17), meaning that it begins and finishes with faith rather than works. Since Jesus is the "Author and Perfecter of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2), it is God who makes us "stand firm in Christ" (2 Corinthians 1:21). The believer is marked in Christ with the "seal" (denoting ownership) of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13), who is a "deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (Ephesians 1:14).

            Jesus Himself said, "Whoever hears My Word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned" (John 5:24). As such, eternal life is something that the true believer presently possesses, and one cannot come to an end of something that is eternal. Jesus also said that those to whom He has given eternal life "shall never perish" (John 10:28). He said that His sheep listen to His voice and follow Him, and He knows those who belong to Him (John 10:27). Indeed, nothing in all creation can separate true Christians from "the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39).

            Scripture tells us that "those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" (Romans 8:29), and those who were predestined He also called, justified and glorified (Romans 8:30). Therefore, we can say with confidence that the believer is a "new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" (2 Corinthians 5:17) Paul goes as far as to say that we who are born again are already "seated with [Christ] in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 2:6).

            Being this new creation clothed in Christ's righteousness, our faith requires action because "faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead" (James 2:17). If it really is faith, won't it be evidenced in actions? "Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit" (Matthew 7:17-18). A true, regenerated believer is the only one who can really, from the heart, bear good (Godly) fruit. In fact, our whole purpose is "to do good works" (Ephesians 2:10) and to "bear fruit to God" (Romans 7:4).

            Although some say they know someone who used to be a Christian but now isn't, the Bible tells us that "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" (1 John 2:19). There is a clear distinction between those who "shrink back and are destroyed" and those who "believe and are saved" (Hebrews 10:39). If we do not "hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first," then we have not "come to share in Christ" (Hebrews 3:14).

            Jesus plainly said, "First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean" (Matthew 23:26). And again, the Bible tells us, "No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him" (1 John 3:6), speaking of a deliberate (defiant) continuance in sin.

            The problem with modern churchianity is that we seem to have forgotten the true meaning of repentance. We seem to think that quoting a "sinner's prayer" and promising to do better will save us. However, our focus is on us praying and on us doing, but not really on what Christ has already done. But Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44).

            When we truly begin to grasp just who Christ is -- God the Son (Hebrews 1:8) -- and the fact that any righteous act of ours is but "filthy rags" to God (Isaiah 64:6), we begin to realize that we are nothing! The "poor in spirit" are the ones to whom is given "the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:3). We must realize how spiritually bankrupt we are before God (Luke 18:10-14). How can we try to stand on anything we've done, even if it is reciting a "sinner's prayer"? Without Christ's sacrifice, such a prayer wouldn't do anything!

            Indeed, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that God knows who are His, and they are forever His. As the picture Jesus gave of a Shepherd and His sheep (John 10:11), so is the body of Christ. The sheep are totally dependent on the Shepherd (John 10:5), and no one can snatch them out of His hand (John 10:28). When one wanders, He goes and finds it (Matthew 18:12)! And when He finds it, it will follow Him (John 10:27).

            In the one who is truly born again, "God's seed remains; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.... Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God" (1 John 3:9-10). "Everyone born of God overcomes the world" (1 John 5:4). God's grace doesn't run out, but it will change us.

 

Quote

The  Cross  of  Christ?

 

                With Good Friday and Easter quickly approaching, it is befitting that we followers of Jesus reflect on Christ and His cross.  But, then again, was it really His cross?

                Let’s go back in time to Jesus’ trial before Pilate (Roman governor over Judea).  By this time Jesus had already been betrayed by one of His own disciples (Mark 14:43-52).  He had had His mock trial before the Jewish Sanhedrin (Mark 14:53-65).  He had been taken to Pilate, who sent Him to Herod (Roman ruler over Galilee), who in turn sent Him back to Pilate! (Luke 23:1-12)

                The chief priests had been accusing Jesus of many things (Mark 15:3), including the accusation that Jesus was subverting the nation to overthrow Roman authority (Luke 23:2).  Pilate responded, saying, “You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion.  I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him.  Neither has Herod, for he sent him back to us; as you can see, he has done nothing deserving death.  Therefore, I will punish him and then release him” (Luke 23:14-17).  Pilate and Herod had both found Jesus innocent.  But what happens next is quite an interesting scene:

MARK 15:6-15

                Now it was the custom at the feast to release a prisoner whom the people requested.  A man called Barabbas was in prison with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the uprising.  The crowd came up and asked Pilate to do for them what he usually did.

                “Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate, knowing it was out of envy that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him.  But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have Pilate release Barabbas instead.

                “What shall I do, then, with the one you call the king of the Jews?” Pilate asked them.

                “Crucify him!” they shouted.

                “Why?  What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate.

                But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”

                Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them.  He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

 

                This scene never ceases to amaze me.  Here Jesus, who had been falsely accused of trying to overthrow Roman authority but declared innocent of such charges, is sentenced to death by crucifixion.  At the same time, Barabbas, who was known to be guilty of the very thing Jesus was accused of (as well as murder), is set free!  Barabbas, whose name literally means “son of the father” (bar = son of; abba = father), has been set free from his imprisonment and death sentence by the substitution of the Son of our Heavenly Father!  The cross that Jesus was crucified on was actually the cross of Barabbas!

                This happened because Pilate was apparently concerned that the crowd may get out of hand, but it was all in keeping with God’s predetermined plan (Acts 2:23) to bring about redemption.  Just like Barabbas was guilty of sin, so we “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).  Just as Barabbas was in prison, “Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin” (Galatians 3:22).  Just like Barabbas was on death row, so also “the wages of [our] sin is death” (Romans 6:23).  Just as Barabbas was set free by the substitution of Jesus, who shed His blood in his place, so has Christ “freed us from our sins by his blood” (Revelation 1:5).  So, not only was it Barabbas’ cross, but also yours and mine!  Jesus was crucified on our cross!  We deserved to be hanging there in agony on that cross!

As Jesus was hanging on the cross, He was continually insulted and mocked.  “Come down from the cross and save yourself!” the crowd jeered (Mark 15:30).  Little did they know that it wasn’t Jesus who was in need of saving. 

Though it is conceivable that someone might sacrifice his life for the sake of a “good man” (Romans 5:7), “God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).  “We have redemption through his blood” (Ephesians 1:7); “we have now been justified by his blood” and “saved from God’s wrath” (Romans 5:9). 

Praise be to our dear Savior for taking the cross of Barabbas, your cross and my cross, and making “the atoning sacrifice… for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2).  Praise also be to God that the story doesn’t end with the cross and the tomb!  Jesus rose from the dead (Matthew 28:1-7; Acts 2:32)!  And, “just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life” (Romans 6:4).  “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17).  Amen.

 

Do you agree with the perspectives those contain?

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

Stop pretending that our current views represent our past views. Our perspectives have changed.

I'll lay it out for you very simply.

I want you to say for EXAMPLE:

"I used to believe in the Incarnation. I no longer do because I have refuted the Incarnation and here's how..."

Or

"We used to recite the Apostolic creeds. I have refuted the Apostolic Creeds and here's how. Thus I no longer believe it."

Or

"Scripture says man is dead in trespasses and sin. I used to believe I was sinful but have refuted that I am a such 'sinful man' and heres how..."

 

You know. Stuff like that. Why is that so difficult?

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I used to believe in Santa Claus.  I have refuted the claim that he exists because reindeer cannot fly, the North Pole is uninhabitable, anyone who subsists on a diet consisting of mainly cookies and milk would suffer from too many diabetic complications to manage a workshop filled with mischievous elves (which also don't exist), and because the rate of speed necessary to visit every child in the world in a single night, even factoring in time zones, is not currently possible with our present technology. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, LuthAMF said:

I want you to....

 

Holdonasec. You need to answer my last post before asking something of me.

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5 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

 

Holdonasec. You need to answer my last post before asking something of me.

 

7 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I used to believe in Santa Claus.  I have refuted the claim that he exists because reindeer cannot fly, the North Pole is uninhabitable, anyone who subsist on a diet consisting of mainly cookies and milk would suffer from too many diabetic complications to manage a workshop filled with mischievous elves (which also don't exist), and because the rate of speed necessary to visit every child in the world, even factoring in time zones, is not currently possible with our present technology. 

If Santa Claus, the North pole and elves were biblical teaching and actual historical events you'd be on to something.

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1 minute ago, LuthAMF said:

 

 

 

Why did you quote me but not respond to me?

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8 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

 

Holdonasec. You need to answer my last post before asking something of me.

Sorry. You're right. Christian lose salvation...And cross of Christ, right?

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Just now, LuthAMF said:

Sorry. You're right. Christian lose salvation...And cross of Christ, right?

 

Yes, I'm curious about your perspective on the views presented there.

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Just now, LuthAMF said:

 

If Santa Claus, the North pole and elves were biblical teaching and actual historical events you'd be on to something.

To suit your perspective, I should be honest and admit that I'm just pissed at Santa because I didn't get the pony I asked for when I was seven.

 

And don't even get me started on the Tooth Fairy (aka Cunty McCunt-Face).  That bitch still owes me money for teeth that fell out of my head 30 fucking years ago.

  • Haha 1

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49 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

 

Yes, I'm curious about your perspective on the views presented there.

First of all, I would consider the perspective especially for the "Cross" article. It has A Jehovas Witness ring to it.

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Here's the deal, Luth.  I'm not going to play this stupid game with you; I've indulged you in your stupidity plenty long enough already.  If you want to know what I believed, what I taught, how I prayed, and all the rest, you're more than welcome to read my story in the Testimonials forum.  If, after reading it, you still want to try to poke holes in my former theology, I'll be more than happy to show you, from scripture, exactly why you are wrong, and exactly why you are going to hell.

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28 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Here's the deal, Luth.  I'm not going to play this stupid game with you; I've indulged you in your stupidity plenty long enough already.  If you want to know what I believed, what I taught, how I prayed, and all the rest, you're more than welcome to read my story in the Testimonials forum.  If, after reading it, you still want to try to poke holes in my former theology, I'll be more than happy to show you, from scripture, exactly why you are wrong, and exactly why you are going to hell.

Point me to it. Why didn't you say that to begin with? But I understand. You have a penchant for berating and belittling and I'm your perfect foil.

And playing stupid games IS what you do.

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26 minutes ago, LuthAMF said:

First of all, I would consider the perspective especially for the "Cross" article. It has A Jehovas Witness ring to it.

 

Uh, Luth, for your information, Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the cross. They believe it was a "torture stake" and they vigorously challenge the notion of it being a cross. So, no, that little article is not the least bit JW.

 

What do you think of its main thrust and the other little article as well? 

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6 minutes ago, LuthAMF said:

Point me to it

It's in the Testimonials forum, like I said, in plain English.  

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