Near Death Experiences and Visits to Hell

[Hierophant]

Testimonials from people claiming they were given a divine tour of hell always make me second guess myself. Here is an example of what I am talking about here:

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1430916623729289&id=100004328940031&sfnsn=mo&s=1428043706&w=y

 

I know I broached this topic before, but this video will help elucidate what makes me pause and consider what I am hearing. What I find most compelling about these anecdotal pieces of evidence is the sheer conviction of the person speaking. Personally, I am not inclined to believe the guy is lying about this story, i.e., he invented it from whole cloth and he knows it. He strikes me as being genuinely convinced it occurred. I found this to be true for other testimonials from evangelicals who stated they were sent to hell and Jesus brought them back to warn us, etc. The testimonial is persuading because of the confidence of the speaker; at least I find it convincing. 

 

What I also find odd is that the primary source of these stories is from the evangelical/apologetic camp. If you do a quick Goggle search on NDEs or visits to hell during NDE, you do not really see anything from Judaism, Islam, or the eastern religions. What you will find is a lot of stories about people from other religions meeting Jesus during an NDE. I am not really sure what to make of that one. It could be my search is corrupted since I am pinging a US IP address.

 

I wish there was a way to investigate these claims. Something about Christianity that bothers me is that I cannot for sure put it to bed. There is always a niggling doubt that some how, some way, there is something true about it. That in of itself brings about a slew of questions:  What about it is true? How can we know what is true, etc.? I say this because even if I found these testimonies convincing enough to go back to Christianity, I still could not tell anyone what Christianity really is. There are too many dissenting views on orthodoxy and orthopraxy to have any real confidence I have "the truth." Really it is a matter of believing "just in case." I guarantee all of the individuals who claimed to have went to hell and visited Jesus do not agree on doctrine. So if they really did visit hell, what was the point? If the visit was to bring us back some truth to hold onto, why do they not agree on what that truth is? They essentially agree on the basics, believe in God/Jesus, then repent of your sins; great, but the gospels portray a belief system much more complicated than that.

 

If there is some cosmic being who really does expect us to believe and do certain things, you would think it would make this apparent. What is the purpose of diving hiding if you want something from the human race? Speaking to humans through visions, then having them write and edit an ancient book, followed by providing anecdotal evidence does nothing to help us in the 21st century determine any idea what this God may want.

 

One other point I wanted to mention, ever notice the theme of these stories is just about avoiding punishment? My favorite is how they tell you how terrible hell is, just to be followed up by "God loves you." I find that laughable. Anyone who loved me would not create a torture chamber for me to hang out in eternally. That is an absurd notion...."God loves you while you are alive on planet earth, but if you do not happen to pass the theology exam and happen to sift out some hidden reality before you die, then you are going to be tortured forever." How can these two thoughts even exists in someone's mind at the same time?

 

 

[MOHO]

@TinMan,

 

1. Those people are convinced they actually had a real encounter because they had very vivid dreams. That can happen for all sorts of reasons from fever to drugs to being overly tired or       stressed about something.

2. You keep having doubt because you keep thinking about Hell. STOP IT! The scare goes away. Really. 

3. The xitan doctrine goes from "just believe in jebus" to "oh but there's WORKS too" to "well you aren't saved unless you speak in tongues" to ???? That's for the purpose of jacking with and controlling the masses. And those two things, my friend, are what religions are all about.

 

Now, to bed with you...and don't let the bed bugs give you any personal tours...

 

[florduh]

1 hour ago, TinMan said:

The testimonial is persuading because of the confidence of the speaker; at least I find it convincing. 

Have you ever talked to a Scientologist recruiter? A religious terrorist? A Bigfoot enthusiast? A psychic? Energy healer? Flat earther?

 

Don't be so easily convinced. I can't believe we're still kicking this around. Near death is not death. Things that occur after real death can find no working brain to record the memories.

[Hierophant]

34 minutes ago, MOHO said:

@TinMan,

 

1. Those people are convinced they actually had a real encounter because they had very vivid dreams. That can happen for all sorts of reasons from fever to drugs to being overly tired or       stressed about something.

2. You keep having doubt because you keep thinking about Hell. STOP IT! The scare goes away. Really. 

3. The xitan doctrine goes from "just believe in jebus" to "oh but there's WORKS too" to "well you aren't saved unless you speak in tongues" to ???? That's for the purpose of jacking with and controlling the masses. And those two things, my friend, are what religions are all about.

 

Now, to bed with you...and don't let the bed bugs give you any personal tours...

 

 

Bed time! I am just getting things started for the day here in Korea.

 

Regarding your response, all valid points. When I say I am convinced, I should clarify that to mean I think the testimonial has a persuasive factor, not that I buy it hook, line, and sinker. It is more of me wondering why these people are making this claim, coupled with a few testimonies/stories that are from former atheists, in that, they claim they were atheists (really nones, nominal Christians) or from a different religious background, and then they had this experience that made them believe in the Christian God. I am just not sure how to account for that. Not saying it is true, but wondering what is happening where this became a thing for them.

[Hierophant]

@florduh "Things that occur after real death can find no working brain to record the memories."

 

Good observation, I did not even consider that aspect. I suppose old boy saying he was dead for 38 minutes is likely not the case. I am not a medical expert so I cannot really weigh in on that, but it does make more sense he was having a lucid experience while still alive in some regard.

[florduh]

A stopped heart is not a definition of death. Brain activity is the benchmark both medically and legally.

[older]

They were dead before they were born. Where were they then?

[Castiel233]

On 6/21/2019 at 12:53 AM, florduh said:

 

 

Don't be so easily convinced. I can't believe we're still kicking this around. Near death is not death

Absolutely, spot on.  

 

Too add:

Lots of lots of people claim to leave their bodies during operations, etc in hospital. Some hospital have put card high up (from which an astral projector patient should see).None do, yet they are convinced they have left their bodies. 

 

As to Hell, we are told it in inescapable and forever, although these, not quite really dead people mange to leave. 

[mwc]

     This is all par for the course for god.  Everything is done this way.  Who saw jesus die?  According to the stories just a few random idiots.  But now everyone knows.  So god will just do that again.  He'll take a few random idiots and spread the news of hell.  It might take awhile but he'll get it done.  He knows a good system when he sees it.  Word of mouth over a lot of time is just the best way.  It's god's way.

 

     So if some random person says that god says something, no matter what that thing is, well buddy, you can just take whatever that person says to the bank.  God is just working his word of mouth magic.

 

          mwc

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Then there are some very non-christian people, "sinners", who have near death experiences, yet report very positive encounters, and afterward do not fear death.  From what I understand that is more common than seeing Hell.   How do you explain that??  If they were messages from God, why aren't they consistant?  It seems the details are inconsistent.

[Wertbag]

NDE had been seen in all cultures, in all religions and even for the non-religious. 

One website that discusses it in depth: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/

Which includes quotes "In my inestigation of over 500 NDEs from dozens of countries around the world I found impressive similarities" and goes on to say the muslim NDEs are almost identical to western ones. They also found 99% of those surveyed believed the experience was real. 

I found references to a hindu seeing hell and a Buddhist seeing Buddha in hell. The effect is not cultural, not age related, not religion specific, and can also was reported under general anaesthetic. 

I've heard there are at least 9 different proposals as to cause from the brain function going crazy, but testing is very hard and not one we are likely to ever have a solid answer for. 

[UniversalFriendliness]

On 6/20/2019 at 6:43 PM, TinMan said:

Something about Christianity that bothers me is that I cannot for sure put it to bed.

 

One aspect of Hell I find hard to understand is that it amounts to saying that God is less merciful than I am. I wouldn't wish everlasting torment on anyone. Can God be less merciful than I? My concept of a punishment is simply long enough so that the person learns the appropriate lesson. Hardly an eternity. NDEs illustrate that love is the way things operate, not punishment.

 

The reason Christianity keeps alive as a possibility in your mind is that people generally have a sense that punishment is due for crimes. I suppose most any religion has a concept along these lines. If you're not careful you'll end up a hungry ghost, for example. But as a power structure, authorities have a reason to favor a religious concept that keeps people close-knit. Avoiding the worst punishment possible is a workable strategy. 

 

The only way punishment could be eternal is if time itself doesn't exist after we die. So if we are in an adverse state when we die, then maybe we stay that way. But why would things work like that? NDEs suggest that we can change after we die, and that love is key to learning. Try to understand Christianity as a social structure meant partly to control, not least by subsuming existing cultural patterns (e.g. the Cross is the E-W N-S lines, with the sun dying and resurrecting at wintertime). There are useful religious principles in Christianity, but they are elsewhere as well.

 

Bad ideas can spread, and later generations don't understand or even care exactly how they spread, or what they displaced. But now we can compare and contrast religions more easily than ever.

[sdelsolray]

A quite plausible and sanguine explanation is that gods, religious dogma, and all related items are simply human constructs, invented by certain humans, written or spoken about by other humans and maintained by humans.  These theistic memes exist solely in the individual human brain and are amassed within various humans societies.

 

Of course, not all humans are involved with this.

[UniversalFriendliness]

35 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

A quite plausible and sanguine explanation is that gods, religious dogma, and all related items are simply human constructs, invented by certain humans, written or spoken about by other humans and maintained by humans.

 

People in all cultures have experiences that can be described as repeatable or recurring, relating to the non-physical. Also anything we do to evaluate, categorize, and understand, amounts to a construct. We make constructs in math, the physical sciences, and the psychological phenomena. Over the centuries these change, but we don't lament them per se simply because they are human or constructs. 

 

People have the distinct impression that there is a difference between our essence, and our bodies. And so we have nearly universal interest in having a valid understanding of everything to do with it.