Christforums Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 10 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Wow. How quickly the christian mind jumps to vengeance. I wasn't even thinking about vengeance, as that is not an attribute I contemplate, even when somebody does me wrong. That must be the godless heathen in me coming out. Right, I'll consider your motive and intention behind throwing certain verses in the face of Christians as one of following the very precepts which are taught in the verses you used. You haven't answered the question. Quote So then the question is how are these Laws fulfilled? Is it your intent and motive to place others under the Law? Do you believe Scripture rightly teaches that one is saved by keeping these commandments of the Law? Is it possible to obtain salvation by doing the Law, which particularly, these Laws require one to love. Can we love our way into salvation? The Law requires perfect Love which entails the very verses you quoted. Loving God with all our heart, mind, and strength, Loving our neighbor as ourselves, and loving our enemies. Is anyone here saved by doing these commandments? They require PERFECT LOVE. So then how are the Laws fulfilled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 3, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted July 3, 2019 9 minutes ago, Christforums said: Right, I'll consider your motive and intention behind throwing certain verses in the face of Christians as one of following the very precepts which are taught in the verses you used. Indeed, the Prof chastises those whom he loves. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 3, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted July 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, Christforums said: So then how are the Laws fulfilled Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-19 Spoken by the same jesus who said "love your neighbor" and "love your enemies," and who also, presumably, doesn't mean what he says. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christforums Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 7 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-19 Spoken by the same jesus who said "love your neighbor" and "love your enemies," and who also, presumably, doesn't mean what he says. It's sad that such people as yourself even went out from one of us preaching a twisted Gospel. I'll rack this up as one that cannot answer the questions. I never said Jesus destroyed or abolished the Law. I stated that the Law is still binding to those under the Law. I then asked, so how are the Laws fulfilled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 3, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted July 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, Christforums said: It's sad that such people as yourself even went out from one of us preaching a twisted Gospel. I'll rack this up as one that cannot answer the questions. I never said Jesus destroyed or abolished the Law. I stated that the Law is still binding to those under the Law. I then asked, so how are the Laws fulfilled? And I answered: jesus claimed that he came to fulfil the law. I'll just chalk this up as you not being able to read, and therefore incapable of understanding what the bible means when it doesn't mean what it says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christforums Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 36 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: And I answered: jesus claimed that he came to fulfil the law. I'll just chalk this up as you not being able to read, and therefore incapable of understanding what the bible means when it doesn't mean what it says. You didn't answer it. AS you stated else where you think your understanding is what the author meant to convey. How does Jesus' fulfilling the Law save us? No one has ever been saved by keeping the Law. Everyone falls short. Perhaps you should Call, Regenerate, Justify and Sanctify those you love before you chastise them? Only if those works were in your power, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 3, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted July 3, 2019 36 minutes ago, Christforums said: AS you stated else where you think your understanding is what the author meant to convey. Actually, I never stated what I thought the author meant. You merely presumed to know what I thought, based on the words I did say. Which is precisely what you do with the bible, since it also doesn't mean what it says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christforums Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Actually, I never stated what I thought the author meant. You merely presumed to know what I thought, based on the words I did say. Which is precisely what you do with the bible, since it also doesn't mean what it says. 1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: That wasnt contempt for the author. I reserve my contempt for dumbasses who presume to tell me what the bible means, when it doesn't mean what it says. I'm going to leave this here. Anyone can review the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 3, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted July 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, Christforums said: I'm going to leave this here. Anyone can review the thread. Finally, you realize who the presumptuous dumbass I was referring to is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Great thread but if I continue to read it I fear my brain will explode. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freshstart Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 @Christforums As twisted as this may sound, I want to thank you for coming here and doing your (presumably) best to defend your beliefs. You have helped me to put yet another nail in the coffin of Christian mythology. If your beliefs are worthy, they should withstand any test. I am hopeful that one day you will allow yourself to put your beliefs to the ultimate test: open-mindedness. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted July 4, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 4, 2019 I am disappoint. We see CF here blasting away with vigour but he refuses to answer my question in the lions den of what makes him special. Why should we pay him any heed over a Christian who declares that God is all love and the passages in the bible regarding homosexuality were for another people in another time? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christforums Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 56 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: I am disappoint. We see CF here blasting away with vigour but he refuses to answer my question in the lions den of what makes him special. Why should we pay him any heed over a Christian who declares that God is all love and the passages in the bible regarding homosexuality were for another people in another time? Couldn't care if I disappoint. If you're looking for someone to live up to your standard I suggest you find another cronie. Don't think I'm a prideful creature which can be tempted to rise above. I'm not competitive by nature. Don't mistaken competitiveness with genuinely striving for truth. Quote We see CF here blasting away with vigour but he refuses to answer my question in the lions den of what makes him special. An unrelated thread but you seem to imply your self importance and yet still find room to criticize another. Personally, I find flaw in your discernment and reject anyone that claims "God is all love". God is love but love is not God. That is, love is an attribute of God and cannot be separated from other sum attributes that equal His holiness. The love of God is subject to God's very standard. The love of God should not be a human projection of love upon one's own making (god). We'd end up being tagged by Cupid. Perhaps you should stop listening to others and act as the Bereans? For example, please elaborate on the difference between: John 5:39-40 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. And: Acts 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Both searched the Scriptures but one were condemned and other praised. What was the difference? What were the intentions and motives of the Jews in John 5? And how did they differ from the "noble" Jews in Thessalonia? If you could put aside your snarky spiteful remarks and lay to rest winning an argument I'd disarm immediately. Until then In the U.S.A.F. we called such people TWAs. I always preferred cluster bombing from one end to another over strategic airstrikes. Cluster bombing has a real impact on morale. Really, this is all the land of Ex-Christian has to offer in the way of surface to air attacks? These SAMs are pitiful. William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christforums Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 1 hour ago, freshstart said: @Christforums As twisted as this may sound, I want to thank you for coming here and doing your (presumably) best to defend your beliefs. You have helped me to put yet another nail in the coffin of Christian mythology. If your beliefs are worthy, they should withstand any test. I am hopeful that one day you will allow yourself to put your beliefs to the ultimate test: open-mindedness. While you're leaning towards your cronies I noticed your open mindedness caused your brains to fall out. It might do you some benefit if you actually felt enough conviction to walk across the street to kick some dogs. Your uncertainty over matters reeks with cowardliness. Gird up you loins and speak like a man. The Irony is that some among you claimed to be one of us (Christian) at one point. Yet the very thing they preached led you here. As far as I am concerned they should seek repentance from their fellow man. Instead you'll praise and side with the very people that caused these damages to you in order to not be proven wrong. So much for a "freshstart". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted July 4, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 4, 2019 44 minutes ago, Christforums said: Couldn't care if I disappoint. If you're looking for someone to live up to your standard I suggest you find another cronie. Don't think I'm a prideful creature which can be tempted to rise above. I'm not competitive by nature. Don't mistaken competitiveness with genuinely striving for truth. Hear that whooshing sound? That's the point going over your head. 44 minutes ago, Christforums said: An unrelated thread but you seem to imply your self importance and yet still find room to criticize another. Errr no... no I was simply pointing out to my fellows that there is no reason why we should pay your biblical rambling's any attention and you haven't even attempted to explain why we should pay you any attention. You are dime a dozen. We've seen you before, and we'll see you again. 44 minutes ago, Christforums said: Personally, I find flaw in your discernment and reject anyone that claims "God is all love". God is love but love is not God. That is, love is an attribute of God and cannot be separated from other sum attributes that equal His holiness. The love of God is subject to God's very standard. The love of God should not be a human projection of love upon one's own making (god). We'd end up being tagged by Cupid. Again... why do we care what you think, and what you reject, and what you believe? This is my point. What makes you special? You are just spouting your understanding of Christian ideology, while another spouts their version. From your point of view you are quite sure you are holding onto the Truth (TM) but from where we stand you are just vendors selling slight variations of the same product, all claiming yours is the best, and the rest are wrong. 44 minutes ago, Christforums said: Perhaps you should stop listening to others and act as the Bereans? I did - I stopped listening to the "revealed word of God" coming from my ex pastor. Now apparently you've got something he hasn't. 44 minutes ago, Christforums said: For example, please elaborate on the difference between: John 5:39-40 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. And: Acts 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Both searched the Scriptures but one were condemned and other praised. What was the difference? What were the intentions and motives of the Jews in John 5? And how did they differ from the "noble" Jews in Thessalonia? What is the point here? In John Jesus is talking to the religious leaders of the day who of course rejected his message. Acts is referring to Jews at Berea who apparently are easily convinced of things without sufficient evidence. 44 minutes ago, Christforums said: If you could put aside your snarky spiteful remarks and lay to rest winning an argument I'd disarm immediately. William What spiteful remarks? I merely said you were blasting away at this topic with vigour yet why should we pay you any attention? You don't think this is an important question? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christforums Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 42 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: Again... why do we care what you think, and what you reject, and what you believe? This is my point. What makes you special? You are just spouting your understanding of Christian ideology, while another spouts their version. From your point of view you are quite sure you are holding onto the Truth (TM) but from where we stand you are just vendors selling slight variations of the same product, all claiming yours is the best, and the rest are wrong. You continually look towards the wrong object. I'm not special. I'm a sinful man. 42 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: I did - I stopped listening to the "revealed word of God" coming from my ex pastor. Now apparently you've got something he hasn't. You made the same mistake before and still tread in the same error. Before Tyndale was burnt at the stake he translated the original languages into English, saying the average plow boy will know more than the Pope. 42 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: What is the point here? In John Jesus is talking to the religious leaders of the day who of course rejected his message. Acts is referring to Jews at Berea who apparently are easily convinced of things without sufficient evidence. If you don't see it then it's not there. The thing I love about bible studies is how it reveals so much about the interpreter. 42 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: What spiteful remarks? I merely said you were blasting away at this topic with vigour yet why should we pay you any attention? You don't think this is an important question? The very same thing you were pouting about like a little girl. My question wasn't answered in the other thread! 42 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: Hear that whooshing sound? That's the point going over your head. Been there done that. Hear that whooshing sound? You're dead already I came and went. You haven't actually been subjected on the receiving end of a jet that was beyond mach 1. By time you hear the whooshing, the thunder, the presence, the package was already delivered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted July 4, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 4, 2019 3 hours ago, Christforums said: You continually look towards the wrong object. I'm not special. I'm a sinful man. I'm not sure whether you are intentionally missing the main thrust of my point here or are simply obtuse? Obviously I don't literally think you are special. Damn. We need a verse for that. "Jesus Wept." Given all the context, over all our interactions, do you truly think I'm implying that you have some special intrinsic quality and I want to know why? You know, as opposed to the simpler assumption that I'm merely asking why we should take on board your particular interpretation of the bible rather than anyone else's? Why of those do you think is actually what I'm asking? Quote Before Tyndale was burnt at the stake he translated the original languages into English, saying the average plow boy will know more than the Pope. Good for him. So on a side note, do you believe in special revelation - i.e. that god sends messengers and it is these inspired people who interpret the word of god and the lay person shouldn't put their carnal mind to gods word? Quote If you don't see it then it's not there. The thing I love about bible studies is how it reveals so much about the interpreter. Hmm, true. Generally I've found that a kind gentle empathetic person will pick out verses such as "Love thy neighbor as thy self", or "The meek shall inherit the kingdom of God" and expound on those verses, while judgmental less empathetic people will pick out verses to do with judgement and condemnation "“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.” Interesting observation I've noted over the years. Incidentally that verse from Paul is interesting in the way it mixes up perfectly reasonable moral statements over things you can control (You shouldn't cheat or steal) but also equates a persons very nature which they cannot control with such (homosexuals) and the punishment is the same. Quote The very same thing you were pouting about like a little girl. My question wasn't answered in the other thread! So now I wasn't being snarky I was pouting? Brother you are so far off the beaten path I don't know how to help you. Sweet Jesus help us. Quote Been there done that. Hear that whooshing sound? You're dead already I came and went. You haven't actually been subjected on the receiving end of a jet that was beyond mach 1. By time you hear the whooshing, the thunder, the presence, the package was already delivered. You like the military, blowing things up, and killing people, especially if they are in far off middle eastern lands that you shouldn't be in. I get that. Carpet bombing = good manly shit. Precision bombing = weak girly stuff. Best to kill lotsa people, not just the ones you intend to. I digress. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted July 4, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 4, 2019 Since I've been utterly bombed to smithereens by CF I'll let some Christians do some talking for this topic: https://www.gaychristian101.com/does-the-bible-say-homosexuals-will-go-to-hell.html And apparently has scholarly reasons to back them up https://www.gaychristian101.com/Define-Arsenokoites.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 4, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted July 4, 2019 7 hours ago, Christforums said: The thing I love about bible studies is how it reveals so much about the interpreter. Indeed, you have revealed much about yourself in this forum. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freshstart Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 11 hours ago, Christforums said: While you're leaning towards your cronies I noticed your open mindedness caused your brains to fall out. It might do you some benefit if you actually felt enough conviction to walk across the street to kick some dogs. Your uncertainty over matters reeks with cowardliness. Gird up you loins and speak like a man. The Irony is that some among you claimed to be one of us (Christian) at one point. Yet the very thing they preached led you here. As far as I am concerned they should seek repentance from their fellow man. Instead you'll praise and side with the very people that caused these damages to you in order to not be proven wrong. So much for a "freshstart". Hmmm, let's add up the snarky insults hurled by the self-professed Christian towards someone he does not know: My open mindedness caused my brains to fall out? I might benefit if I felt enough conviction to kick some dogs? I reek with cowardliness? Gird my loins and speak up like a man? So much for freshstart? I praise and side with people who caused me damages? Wow, @Christforums when I thanked you for coming here to defend your beliefs (thus reinforcing my own beliefs), a simple "you're welcome" would have sufficed. Just for the record, it is people like YOU who "cause damages." And I hold people like YOU wholly responsible for helping me - and hundreds of thousands of others - to see how destructive and hypocritical Christianity is. Your continued ranting and attempts to insult and hurt others is music to my ears, proof that the healthiest and sanest thing I've ever done is to leave the Christian myth in the dust. Please keep it up! And again, THANK YOU for reinforcing my atheism! 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted July 6, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 6, 2019 This has been entertaining. I just got caught up after the holiday. William, the point remains that you as a Calvinist put forward claims to the effect that you are doctrinally sound while others are not. I understand why you look at a mixed crowd of ex christians and rationalize to yourself that faulty doctrine and / or a general lack of understanding scripture led to people falling away from the faith. If I were still adventist I would look at all of them and even you, as false. So I get it. Then you and others would no doubt call me false as an Adventist. And everyone would be pointing their fingers at the others declaring, "false." The main problem here is one that likely deserves it's own thread where you and everyone else is welcome to debate the issue. Who can demostrate that they are a 100% doctrinally sound christian believer? If you feel confident with providing such a demonstration, I would like to see it tackled. I'm sure everyone else agrees, possibly even you. This would consist of you laying out your Calvinist platforms which are the basis of how you guys moderate CF's - against us searching for contradictions and inconsistencies in your beliefs that make them less than 100% doctrinally sound. Everyone can watch and see if you wipe the floor with the lot of us or not. Yes it's a challenge and yes it's confrontational. But is that a topic more your speed? Something you're confident enough to engage and not back out of? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 6, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted July 6, 2019 Place your bets! Place your bets here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted July 6, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 6, 2019 If the answer comes back as yes, then we should get the new thread started and let it rip. It looks like a fun exercise for christians and ex christians to engage in. I wonder how many people were told that they, and they alone, are / were once members of the only true church of jesus christ - the only one's in the whole of christianity with special knoweldge above and beyond everyone else? And how does one go about testing those claims? How can William know, for instance, if he's right or wrong about predestination ideas coming from an extra biblical source like John Calvin, commentating on the bible? When not all christians agree with him? Is everyone reading the same bible? Praying to the same jesus? Guided by the same holy spirit? But getting back entirely different answers from the same bible? And could that be because the bible is simply a diverse collection of various authors over various time periods who often contradict one another's thoughts and beliefs? And trying to harmonize such a book of diversity of thought and belief can only end in picking and choosing some areas of focus, while glossing over and ignoring contradictory thoughts and beliefs contained within the same bible? So that in the end every denomination that attempts making absolute truth claims are basically left with hallow claims of "absolute truth" issue after issue? I invite our christian members to step forward and demonstrate where I'm wrong with the above assumption, if they can manage it. All of them verses all of us. Battle Royale..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted July 7, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 7, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 7, 2019 Author Share Posted July 7, 2019 Formula for selecting the true denomination (and doctrine): 1. Study bible and denominational writings for several years. 2. Decide some denominations are wrong because they dont feel right. 3. Decide one denomination is the One True Way because it feels right, you had some supernatural experience about it, signs point to this particular belief. 4. Pray to Jesus about what denomination is correct. Decide that Jesus is leading you towards the denomination that you resonated with anyway. 5. Claim your preferred doctrine is correct and denounce all others. This works with any denomination. Pentecostals, Calvinists, Baptists, CoC, SDA, Mormons, JW... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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