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Wertbag

You are not saying only they are wrong

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One thing that I've come to realise, that some atheists don't seem to understand, is that when you say someone is wrong about an indoctrinated belief, you aren't just saying that person is wrong but everyone they know, care about and respect.  If you show evidence to a Christian that god is fake the knee jerk reaction is that the evidence must be wrong.  This is because it conflicts with the persons world view, their very understanding of reality, so it can't be correct.  That world view is taught from birth by everyone around you.

When you say "you are wrong" you are saying "your parents, your friends, your teachers, your loved ones, your ancestors, your elders and everyone else you know are all wrong".  Faced with that people will say think the contradictory evidence must be wrong, as it couldn't have possibly deceived all those people.

 

If you are born into a flat earth household and someone shows you proof of the globe, they are directly saying "your parents lied or are at least mis-led".  No one wants to think ill of their parents, especially when they have shown you year after year just how honest and reliable they are.  When it is your word verse their families who do you think they will side with?

Even when the evidence is clear and beyond debate, the thought will be "well I don't know the answer, but that doesn't mean others with more knowledge don't.  I'm sure elder Bob could answer this" and they don't need a lot of counter argument as they have already categorised the evidence as false, its just a matter of proving that, even superficially.

 

It takes a lot of conscious effort to dig further and to not accept the answers already given.  Most won't get there, but the earlier you can raise the doubts the better.  This is where the internet is the game changer.  Kids can come across new opinions long before they are indoctrinated, and when they ask some basic questions but get hand wave answers the framework starts to crumble.

 

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This is why it can be so hard to dig someone out of religious belief. Harder still to dig an entire family out.

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I've had more success with saying, "I do not believe you" instead of saying, "You are wrong".

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I agree, Wertbag.  You are telling them their whole world is wrong.  It takes a degree of ego strength to question something that is supposed to have complete control over you.  And that your life, and social acceptance depends on.

 

A childs greatest fear is of being abandoned.  If you grew up being afraid of being abandoned by parents, and if you perceived your existence was dependant upon pleasing them, You may never question your perception of your  "heavenly father."   I think my father fit that category.  As a matter of fact, some people are so insecure in some areas of their life that they go into psychological denial when presented with certain stimuli.  Their brain literally blocks it out.  That is why i suggest people have empathy for die hard religious people, and others with problems. There is a reason for everything, and sometimes we do not understand that reason.

 

I am eternally grateful that, although my maternal grandfather was a Christian, he didn't believe everything our preachers said, advised me to study things for myself, and often said everyone has to work out their own salvation.  So I did, and it eventually led me out of religion. Thanks for posting this topic.

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             the strangest thing, which sends me into a rage attack, is something akin to what Matt Dillahaunty said. Intelligent, reasonable people, mature, educated, when confronted with the issues of religion, revert to 5 year old logic, slogans, absurd cherry picking, idiocy. Like a psychiatrist explaining that suffering is not because of God, but because of the actions of people. And her PROOF was quoting the Bible. How in the name of fuck do you do medicine? Like a patient comes in, and you say, ahaaaaa, you have psychosis, because a textbook I have never ever bothered to verify and investigate says so? Do you even prove the existence of God, of freedom of choice, real freedom of choice I mean, of the fact that human choices make earthquaques, but you just jump to magical thinking conclusions like an infant. Really? Proove to me a a murderer is entirely conscious, intelectually, and emotionally of what he has done, and still does it, just to piss everyone off. No being, absolutely no being acts in contradiction to its own benefit, even if it is not obvious. Self harm, by traumatises individuals, for example, actually is a form of discharge, it is a benefit the brain is chasing.

            The stupidiy, the sentimentality of a third grade romantic movie, and of the most crude forms of fairy tales...The sheer lack of depth in their thinking and sensibility is just outstanding. You are a full grown adult. The fuck you are doing, man? The power and level of brainwashing, like it was with me, in a way, is just outstanding. Just outstanding. It is like a virus which keeps evolving to become antibitic resistant and kills of the immune system as well. I am amazed. 

           God would be, in a metaphorical sense, extremely dissapointed that the beings endowed with wisdom, reason and depth just give that all up for some simplistic formulaic bullshit. Like, hey, I created you so you have the ability to complete a post doctoral paper in quantum physics and ancient writing systems of the world, while indulging in fine art and poetry and you choose to be a sleazy used car salesman, drinking moonshine whiskey! Talk about a waste of talent! Really? The being created to experientally know the holiest mysteries of the world? these guys. You gotta be kidding me.

          Sometimes I just want to tell them. You are so selling yourself short, even from you religion s viewpoint.

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Apparently God gave us a brain with the expectation that we wouldn't use it.

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15 hours ago, florduh said:

Apparently God gave us a brain with the expectation that we wouldn't use it.

 

I am very thankful that when I was about 13 years old, my mother confronted a radical preacher we had for a short period of time, who was trying to convince us of some stupid idea.  I remember her telling him, "well, God also gave me a brain to think with, and I don't believe you."  I never forgot that statement.  It gave me courage to question things.

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15 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

The sheer lack of depth in their thinking and sensibility is just outstanding. 

 

          Sometimes I just want to tell them. You are so selling yourself short, even from you religion s viewpoint.

 

AMEN, BROTHER!

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