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midniterider

Calvinism, Predestination, The Elect

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5 hours ago, freshstart said:

Well in the above-posted video, only those who rebel against God will go to hell.  How does one rebel against something that doesn't exist?  I don't rebel against god,  or rebel against unicorns, mermaids, big foot, Zeus - or any other product of human imagination.  I guess I'm safe!  What I really want Pastor John to answer is how my mother - an ardent Calvinist -  will enjoy heaven for all eternity knowing that her daughter is roasting in hell.

 

Well, who knows? Maybe you and your Mom are both elect? Maybe all us Ex-C's are elect. What if none of the Calvinists are elect? What if Christforums' people 'feel' they have been chosen, so they do the worship thing ... yet they aren't God's elect? 

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On 7/17/2019 at 1:19 PM, midniterider said:

 

Well, who knows? Maybe you and your Mom are both elect? Maybe all us Ex-C's are elect. What if none of the Calvinists are elect? What if Christforums' people 'feel' they have been chosen, so they do the worship thing ... yet they aren't God's elect? 

 

Having said that, another big point here is the question of how blasphemous it is for anyone to claim to know the judgement of another, regardless of anything written in the bible.

 

I see christians try and trump the bit about not judging, or even having the capability to judge by finding some other contrary verses in the bible. But taken altogether I haven't seen how the contrary verses could trump the verses about human's not having the ability to know the final judgement. A bum on the street could get to heaven before some self righteous jack ass for all anyone knows, right? How in the world would these Calvinist elitist's know whether or not THEY are saved without going the direction of blasphemy? If they think that they can know, what then is the final judgement in revelation all about? 

 

@LuthAMF

 

If you feel up to taking on the crowd outside of our private debate, here's a good place to try and do so. Forget about deconversion therapy for a moment. What about this theological issue? If you do not feel up to taking on the crown outside of our private debate then I propose that we will include the issue of predestination and free will into our private debate at some point to make sure that the issue get's covered there. 

 

Let me know what you think about it. 

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Thanks for the consideration. I'm happy that you recognize I'd be interested. Thing is, it's obvious we're at a snails pace in the debate. I prefer to re-establish footing there. I know I did jump off for the "Deconversion" thread but that was not a time consuming effort. I'm going to stick to the debate but keep this in mind. You all say the most interesting things.

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7 hours ago, LuthAMF said:

You all say the most interesting things.

 

This thread has been pretty interesting. With many contributions from several people. Good questions that seem worthy of trying to answer. 

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On 7/17/2019 at 7:38 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Doesn't god say something like " Depart from me, thou evil-doer, for I never knew you" before throwing somebody in hell?  How does he know he never knew you?


I think the part about who he would profess he never knew was referring unto the ones who would say he was the LORD God, you know the ones who built their house on a rock.

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2 minutes ago, Justus said:


I think the part about who he would profess he never knew was referring unto the ones who would say he was the LORD God, you know the ones who built their house on a rock.

Indeed.  But didn't he also say that not everyone who comes calling "lord, lord," would enter heaven?

 

I had a girlfriend who would come calling "lord, lord."

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1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Indeed.  But didn't he also say that not everyone who comes calling "lord, lord," would enter heaven?

 

Lord, Lord was IMO a reference to LORD God as used in Genesis 2.   

 

I found it interesting the part where he said he would show them what someone was like that hears his sayings and doeth them since anyone who heard his saying and did them wouldn't need to be shown that in both his examples he referred unto a man who builds his own house.  I guess not looking, they didn't hear that except the LORD build the house, they labor in vain to build it.    

 

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I had a girlfriend who would come calling "lord, lord."

Yeah,  mine would call me Master but that was more a reference to I dream of Jeannie, or at least I thought 

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14 minutes ago, Justus said:

IMO

You must not be a real christian, then, if you're using opinion instead of hermeneutics and exegesis.  Welcome to hell.

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4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You must not be a real christian, then, if you're using opinion instead of hermeneutics and exegesis.  Welcome to hell.

 

LOL, what can I say,  hermeneutics simply implies that the person is "making it up as I they go along' while exegesis infers that they are  'pulling it out of their ass'  or at least that is my opinion based upon what I know and what I have seen.  :ouch:

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On 7/17/2019 at 12:57 PM, midniterider said:

Jeremiah 23:23: I am a God who is everywhere and not in one place only. God is everywhere. I am somewhere. Therefore, God must be where I am. God cannot be separate or elsewhere.

Luke 17:21: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Confirms what I just said above. God being everywhere permeates me and all things.

Psalm 82:6: I have said, You are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Confirms we are of the same essence of the omnipresent God.

John 10:34: Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'? Later reiteration of Ps 82:6.

John 14:11: Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me. God is everywhere. God is in me. God is in Jesus. We are all of the same essence. 

This is why we look to those equipped to rightly handle scripture. Otherwise we end up with this kind of confusion. 

 

Sorry, rider, but please stop before you hurt yourself or others.

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3 hours ago, Justus said:

 

 

LOL, what can I say,  hermeneutics simply implies that the person is "making it up as I they go along' while exegesis infers that they are  'pulling it out of their ass'  or at least that is my opinion based upon what I know and what I have seen.  :ouch:

 

That's kind of what I got out of the definitions of those words. Exegesis sounds much more scholarly than 'pulling it out of your ass.' :)

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1 hour ago, LuthAMF said:

This is why we look to those equipped to rightly handle scripture. Otherwise we end up with this kind of confusion. 

 

Sorry, rider, but please stop before you hurt yourself or others.

 

I was just exegeting those passages, buddy. :)

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56 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

I was just exegeting those passages, buddy. :)

Uhhh, no. You most definitely were doing no such thing. You dont know what exegesis is, do you?

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     I know the answer.  Hermeneutics is the reliance on some flawed humans to interpret the supposed perfect word of god for others while exegesis is the reliance on some flawed humans to interpret the supposed perfect word of god for others.  My school was way into all this.  Anyhow, it's a much better system than having scribes and such interpreting the scripture for the common man.  That system was just messed up and this reformed method is far superior (my gut tells me that someone will take my glib commentary as my actual beliefs as when was xian).

 

          mwc

 

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1 hour ago, mwc said:

     I know the answer.  Hermeneutics is the reliance on some flawed humans to interpret the supposed perfect word of god for others while exegesis is the reliance on some flawed humans to interpret the supposed perfect word of god for others.  My school was way into all this.  Anyhow, it's a much better system than having scribes and such interpreting the scripture for the common man.  That system was just messed up and this reformed method is far superior (my gut tells me that someone will take my glib commentary as my actual beliefs as when was xian).

 

          mwc

 

This is the reason why you should Just. Shut. Up.

Totally meaningless post.

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1 hour ago, mwc said:

     I know the answer.  Hermeneutics is the reliance on some flawed humans to interpret the supposed perfect word of god for others while exegesis is the reliance on some flawed humans to interpret the supposed perfect word of god for others.  My school was way into all this.  Anyhow, it's a much better system than having scribes and such interpreting the scripture for the common man.  That system was just messed up and this reformed method is far superior (my gut tells me that someone will take my glib commentary as my actual beliefs as when was xian).

 

          mwc

 

 

Thanks for letting us know. Old Luth just likes to tell me I'm wrong but not provide his own answer. It looks like hermeneutics and exegesis are some pseudo-scientific words that Christians take great pride in using to give their absurd religion some false credibility. 

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5 minutes ago, LuthAMF said:

This is the reason why you should Just. Shut. Up.

Totally meaningless post.

     Does this mean we're not best friends?  😥

 

     Well, you know what?  I believe we're best friends and so we are.  That's the magic of belief.

 

          mwc

 

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.

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1 minute ago, mwc said:

     Does this mean we're not best friends?  😥

 

     Well, you know what?  I believe we're best friends and so we are.  That's the magic of belief.

 

          mwc

 

Ok.

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8 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Thanks for letting us know. Old Luth just likes to tell me I'm wrong but not provide his own answer. It looks like hermeneutics and exegesis are some pseudo-scientific words that Christians take great pride in using to give their absurd religion some false credibility. 

Heyyyy!!! I'm not old.

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I agree with RNP. Why do Christians have to make up some phony hermeneutics and exegesis bullshit when the writers of the bible could have just said what they meant? But say that these processes did actually provide the meaning for every passage in the bible, then that's it. You Exegete and Hermenuet one time and boom, we got a whole new and complete explanatory text for the bible for everyone to read and understand. Problem solved.

 

Unless of course, the bible (magically) has different meaning for everyone...in that case the bible really doesn't mean anything at all, correct? 

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11 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Thanks for letting us know. Old Luth just likes to tell me I'm wrong but not provide his own answer. It looks like hermeneutics and exegesis are some pseudo-scientific words that Christians take great pride in using to give their absurd religion some false credibility. 

     The answers are in the bible.  We just need to rely on it.  But we can't understand it.  So we need to rely on others to tell us what it actually means as opposed to what is written.  Then, after we're told what it means, we can know what it means when we then read it because we'll read it with that understanding.

 

          mwc

 

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10 minutes ago, midniterider said:

I agree with RNP. Why do Christians have to make up some phony hermeneutics and exegesis bullshit when the writers of the bible could have just said what they meant? But say that these processes did actually provide the meaning for every passage in the bible, then that's it. You Exegete and Hermenuet one time and boom, we got a whole new and complete explanatory text for the bible for everyone to read and understand. Problem solved.

 

Unless of course, the bible (magically) has different meaning for everyone...in that case the bible really doesn't mean anything at all, correct? 

Because RNP and others are shallow and dont believe there are any complexities to work through. Maybe you dont know what youre talking about.

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......their little ones will be dashed to the ground,    their pregnant women ripped open...

 

The above excerpt from Hosea 13:16 was read without exegesis ...now here is the same passage after exegeting with friends, family and church members:

 

......their little ones will be taken to a bouncy castle,    their pregnant women will be given a gentle therapeutic massage... dont you just LOVE Jesus! Praise the Lord!

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2 minutes ago, midniterider said:

......their little ones will be dashed to the ground,    their pregnant women ripped open...

 

The above excerpt from Hosea 13:16 was read without exegesis ...now here is the same passage after exegeting with friends, family and church members:

 

......their little ones will be taken to a bouncy castle,    their pregnant women will be given a gentle therapeutic massage... dont you just LOVE Jesus! Praise the Lord!

You just love being an idiotic jerk, don't you?

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