Calvinism, Predestination, The Elect

[midniterider]

Lake Florduh. Cool.

[Joshpantera]

On 8/15/2019 at 10:52 AM, florduh said:

I look out on my lake and imagine a turtle and osprey having a philosophical discussion. The turtle never leaves the water. The osprey is quite familiar with all the bodies of water in his reach. He scans, dives in and catches his food in the water. The osprey knows the land, the sky, the trees, rivers and lakes. The turtle just pokes around his limited environment looking for even slower grubs he might eat. 

 

I don't expect those two to have a fruitful discussion.

 

Not likely.

 

Because: 

 

On 8/15/2019 at 11:26 AM, LuthAMF said:

I look...and imagine.

 

Says the turtle from his limited environment. The turtle has no concept of the greater environment and existence surrounding it. And of which it is an interconnected and interdependent aspect thereof, for that matter. The turtle represents obliviousness and blissful ignorance in very straight forward ways.  

[LuthAMF]

3 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Not likely.

 

Because: 

 

 

Says the turtle from his limited environment. The turtle has no concept of the greater environment and existence surrounding it. And of which it is an interconnected and interdependent aspect thereof, for that matter. The turtle represents obliviousness and blissful ignorance in very straight forward ways.  

I think we get it.

But that's a great explsnation. Thanks.

But who's the turtle and who's....?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Not likely.

 

Because: 

 

 

Says the turtle from his limited environment. The turtle has no concept of the greater environment and existence surrounding it. And of which it is an interconnected and interdependent aspect thereof, for that matter. The turtle represents obliviousness and blissful ignorance in very straight forward ways.  

 

14 minutes ago, LuthAMF said:

I think we get it.

But that's a great explsnation. Thanks.

But who's the turtle and who's....?

@Joshpantera, I was waiting for someone to say this besides me, as I knew if I was the one who said it, Luth would ignore and pretend not to understand.  I'd hoped, coming from you, it would resonate with him a bit more.

 

Apparently not....

[LuthAMF]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

@Joshpantera, I was waiting for someone to say this besides me, as I knew if I was the one who said it, Luth would ignore and pretend not to understand.  I'd hoped, coming from you, it would resonate with him a bit more.

 

Apparently not....

[florduh]

There's nothing more sad than someone who has gotten comfortable with his particular version of a religion and closes the door to any further information, and it's not just Christians. Such people frustrate and irritate the shit out of me, but under it all, there is pity.

[LuthAMF]

42 minutes ago, florduh said:

There's nothing more sad than someone who has gotten comfortable with his particular version of a religion and closes the door to any further information, and it's not just Christians. Such people frustrate and irritate the shit out of me, but under it all, there is pity.

Oh come on. The analogy is so blatantly obvious...

"Closes the door ..." 

I happen to have an open door policy. 

We should enjoy a good laugh together over this one. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

See what I mean?

[LuthAMF]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

See what I mean?

So you seriously think the little story is lost on me, huh? Maybe that's funnier than the scenario. 

So tell me what I'm missing, Prof. PLEASE do me the favor and not leave me in my ignorance. I wanna know what I missed. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

45 minutes ago, LuthAMF said:

So you seriously think the little story is lost on me, huh? Maybe that's funnier than the scenario. 

So tell me what I'm missing, Prof. PLEASE do me the favor and not leave me in my ignorance. I wanna know what I missed. 

What you don't grasp is that the joke is clearly on you, yet none of the rest of us are laughing about it.  Only you.  While a certain amount of self-deprecation is healthy, the fact that you're the only one who finds this funny should speak volumes to you.

 

But it doesn't. 

[LuthAMF]

Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said:

What you don't grasp is that the joke is clearly on you, yet none of the rest of us are laughing about it.  Only you.  While a certain amount of self-deprecation is healthy, the fact that you're the only one who finds this funny should speak volumes to you.

 

But it doesn't. 

I know the jokes on me!!!

Again, so predictable. I literally could have written your response. Psychological masturbation.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 minutes ago, LuthAMF said:

I know the jokes on me!!!

Again, so predictable. I literally could have written your response. Psychological masturbation.

Do you understand why the joke is on You?  And why you're the only one laughing?  Or are you so dead set on missing the point that you'd waste an entire post telling me what I told you in the very first half of the very first sentence of my previous post, and not even bothering to read the rest of it?

[LuthAMF]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Do you understand why the joke is on You?  And why you're the only one laughing?  Or are you so dead set on missing the point that you'd waste an entire post telling me what I told you in the very first sentence of my previous post, and not even bothering to read the rest of it?

Go back to sleep.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, LuthAMF said:

Go back to sleep.

Fear-driven deflection.  

[LuthAMF]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Fear-driven deflection.  

Life-sucking leech.

But hey, at any rate, thank you @florduh for the story. I appreciated it even if Prof tries to ruin everything.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Anything to keep from facing the awful truth, huh, Luth?  

[LuthAMF]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Anything to keep from facing the awful truth, huh, Luth?  

Awww sumbunny needs his nap. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, LuthAMF said:

Awww sumbunny needs his nap. 

More fear-driven deflection.  And the joke is still on you.  Have it your way, then.

[LuthAMF]

4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

More fear-driven deflection.  And the joke is still on you.  Have it your way, then.

Yep. Jokes on me. Already acknowledged that. I'm the turtle. But in the little story I'm speaking with an osprey. So why am I now conversing with a jackass?

 

I do like Burger King...

[mwc]

     God is the osprey and we're the turtles.

 

     The metaphor is a backfire.

 

          mwc

 

[LuthAMF]

3 hours ago, mwc said:

     God is the osprey and we're the turtles.

 

     The metaphor is a backfire.

 

          mwc

 

Well there ya go.

[Joshpantera]

I spent the weekend boating. I had a laugh as I watched two ospreys swooping down on a bass. Turtles everywhere watching the goings on around the lake. It was funny only in that it reminded me of this thread as I was boating around. 

 

Presupposition necessarily makes someone into a small minded little turtle, dwelling in a tiny little world of the mind blocked off to the greater surroundings. Because it literally involves presupposing that you've got it all right, everyone else has it all wrong, and evidence suggesting anything contrary be dammed. When pressed to prove or substantiate the presupposition, crickets. Then deflections away from the point. Twisting and slithering to get out of it. Why? Because it really is a sad predicament to find oneself in. I don't know if it's the most close minded position a person can take, but it has to rank pretty high. 

 

Growing up I presupposed that my church had it all figured out. And that the rest of the world were tricked by the devil, basically. After questioning all of that and losing belief I still had a lingering period of not giving two shits about anyone else's religion. I still figured that if anyone did have it right, it must have been my church and if they didn't, then no one did and so why even look around and learn what they do believe?

 

That's part of the mind fuck lingering on even into my non-theistic life. It was ten years or more before I looked at eastern religions. I was finally curious enough to do it. The little turtle finally found some more lakes. But more to the point, the little turtle found some ospreys talking of far off lands and environments and I was curious enough to set off looking for them. And stepping out of the box to take in new information. 

 

As far as truth goes, the other lakes don't necessarily offer any more truth then any other individual lake. Taken altogether there are some truths pertaining to lakes in and of themselves. But no lake appears to be superior or truer than any other lake as far as that goes. I didn't find that out based on taking the ospreys at their word. I found that out be crawling out and seeing for myself. Meanwhile, all of the turtles who stayed behind and still stay behind to this day, know nothing at all of the experience of leaving behind the lake. They are necessarily strapped with a one sided view and are not even capable of thought or conversation BEYOND that very limited view. More to the point, the little turtles that stay behind go on swimming around blissfully ignorant of their greater surroundings, presupposing that their lake is true and there's no reason to crawl out looking any further. Or to even bother trying to understand anything outside of the home lake. 

 

And ultimately, it's sad. Sad for the little turtles who are left behind nay saying the ospreys as it were.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

3 hours ago, mwc said:

     God is the osprey and we're the turtles.

 

     The metaphor is a backfire.

 

          mwc

 

 

The monotheistic god is an osprey, some type of "being" observing environments. Leave the little lake behind and god grows into the environments themselves, taken altogether as a collective whole (omnipresence), and the very basis of the creatures which are composed out of the environments as observing "beings"  (the turtles and ospreys). The metaphor is deeper yet (god above the god), to no avail to the little turtles once again......

[LuthAMF]

4 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

I spent the weekend boating. I had a laugh as I watched two ospreys swooping down on a bass. Turtles everywhere watching the goings on around the lake. It was funny only in that it reminded me of this thread as I was boating around. 

 

Presupposition necessarily makes someone into a small minded little turtle, dwelling in a tiny little world of the mind blocked off to the greater surroundings. Because it literally involves presupposing that you've got it all right, everyone else has it all wrong, and evidence suggesting anything contrary be dammed. When pressed to prove or substantiate the presupposition, crickets. Then deflections away from the point. Twisting and slithering to get out of it. Why? Because it really is a sad predicament to find oneself in. I don't know if it's the most close minded position a person can take, but it has to rank pretty high. 

 

Growing up I presupposed that my church had it all figured out. And that the rest of the world were tricked by the devil, basically. After questioning all of that and losing belief I still had a lingering period of not giving two shits about anyone else's religion. I still figured that if anyone did have it right, it must have been my church and if they didn't, then no one did. That's part of the mind fuck lingering on even into my non-theistic life. It was tens years or more before I looked at eastern religion. I was finally curious enough to do it. The little turtle finally found some more lakes. But more to the point, the little turtle found some ospreys talking of far off lands and environments and I was curious enough to set off looking for them. 

 

As far as truth goes, the other lakes don't necessarily offer any more truth then any other individual lake. Taken altogether there are some truths pertaining to lakes in and of themselves. But no lake appears to be superior or truer than any other lake. But I didn't find that out based on taking the ospreys at their word. I found that out be crawling out and seeing for myself. Meanwhile, all of the turtles who stays behind and still stay behind to this day, know nothing at all of the experience of leaving behind the lake. They are necessarily strapped with a one sided view and are not even capable of thought or conversation BEYOND that very limited view. More to the point, the little turtles that stay behind go on swimming around blissfully ignorant of their greater surroundings, presupposing that their lake is true and there's no reason to crawl out looking any further. 

 

And ultimately, it's sad. Sad for the little turtles who are left behind as it were.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Never would have guessed The Lake Florduh story needed dissected.

[LogicalFallacy]

Guys is this thread serving any purpose? If y'all enjoying yourselves well who am I to stop You, but the last 2-3 pages is just a lot of fuck ya nah fuck ya. If I was to describe the direction we are traveling I'd have to say circle.