Jump to content

My pastor denied my gender


Recommended Posts

I'm non-binary, in other words neither male nor female:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender

 

I've known this my entire life. I used to think it was only me, but over the past couple of years there has started to be a lot of talk about it, and when I checked it out I realized that they were talking about me. All well and good, until my pastor finally heard something about it, and started making an issue out of it during services, that if you have a womb you're a woman, and if you don't you're a man, and that is that. Totally aside from the fact that there are millions of intersexed people who are born with non-standard combinations of parts that don't match male or female: 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

 

there are many people who, like me, know perfectly well that we are neither male nor female. And of course many transgender people whose bodies do not match their genders. You just can't argue that away! I can't begin to describe the feelings of betrayal I had, sitting there at service expecting to be lifted up, and instead being crushed down! That was absolutely the last straw, as far as I was concerned, and believe me there have been plenty of other straws as well. What makes this even worse is that my church is one of those that teaches the interpretation of Genesis that the original human being created was both male and female, which would inescapably mean not only that men and women were created simultaneously and are therefore equal, but that combinations of parts, and we assume awareness of gender, other than just male and just female are possible. That was it for me.

  • Sad 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 134
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

The only thing flat-earthers have to fear is sphere itself.

ME, I would assume, since this is my post about my story that I posted to get information and support, and now I find it moved to a debate forum with pages of posts that have nothing to do with my sto

I find this rather patronizing and offensive. Having been on this forum for several years I find the members here have a strong moral code that is moral merely because it is right. And treating other

Posted Images

21 hours ago, Hole_In_My_Heart said:

...

sitting there at service expecting to be lifted up, and instead being crushed down! 

...

 

 

Yup. One of the basic concepts of Christianity is that humans are inherently bad. Christianity is obsessed with negative notions about human nature, sex, the human body, and a whole lot more. We'll probably never figure out the origins of these ideas. And those of us who have positive attitudes about these things are considered bad by Christians. What a pile.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome, Hole_In_My_Heart.

 

On 7/26/2019 at 2:10 AM, Hole_In_My_Heart said:

I'm non-binary, in other words neither male nor female:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender

 

I've known this my entire life. I used to think it was only me, but over the past couple of years there has started to be a lot of talk about it, and when I checked it out I realized that they were talking about me. All well and good, until my pastor finally heard something about it, and started making an issue out of it during services, that if you have a womb you're a woman, and if you don't you're a man, and that is that. Totally aside from the fact that there are millions of intersexed people who are born with non-standard combinations of parts that don't match male or female: 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

 

That remark from your pastor makes me think of a neighbor I had when growing up. She's cis-female but has no womb. By your pastor's logic, that would make her a man.

 

On 7/26/2019 at 2:10 AM, Hole_In_My_Heart said:

there are many people who, like me, know perfectly well that we are neither male nor female. And of course many transgender people whose bodies do not match their genders. You just can't argue that away!

 

I have a transgender son, so I have firsthand family experience with dealing with the difficulties that come along with that. He is a very impressive individual, I must say, but I'm 99% sure we would've lost him if we had pushed back against it. Well, my wife wasn't receptive at first (she's still a Christian), but he had my full support from the get-go and my wife eventually came around to accepting it.

 

On 7/26/2019 at 2:10 AM, Hole_In_My_Heart said:

I can't begin to describe the feelings of betrayal I had, sitting there at service expecting to be lifted up, and instead being crushed down! That was absolutely the last straw, as far as I was concerned, and believe me there have been plenty of other straws as well.

 

I'm sorry to hear about how you were harassed and bullied from the pulpit. It is a difficult subject that a lot of people simply can't wrap their heads around, but knowing that doesn't make it any less difficult to bear.

 

On 7/26/2019 at 2:10 AM, Hole_In_My_Heart said:

What makes this even worse is that my church is one of those that teaches the interpretation of Genesis that the original human being created was both male and female, which would inescapably mean not only that men and women were created simultaneously and are therefore equal, but that combinations of parts, and we assume awareness of gender, other than just male and just female are possible.

 

That's quite an odd interpretation, but oh well.

 

Anyway, I hope the hole in your heart can get some mending. I wish you the best!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Super Moderator
2 hours ago, Citsonga said:

That's quite an odd interpretation, but oh well.

I've heard that interpretation before, based on the language used in Genesis 5:2:  "Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created."  The "rib" god took out of Adam to create Eve was supposedly just a metaphor for the female bits.  Based on that interpretation though, and the idea that "they" were created in the image of god, it would logically follow that gender-fluid individuals were closer to god than binaries, given that they would be more purely created in god's image.

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/26/2019 at 9:19 PM, older said:

 

 

Yup. One of the basic concepts of Christianity is that humans are inherently bad. Christianity is obsessed with negative notions about human nature, sex, the human body, and a whole lot more. We'll probably never figure out the origins of these ideas. And those of us who have positive attitudes about these things are considered bad by Christians. What a pile.

 

That's one of the worst things about Christianity, and the really terrible part of it is that the Bible doesn't actually say that anywhere! Everything Jesus said was all about caring and forgiveness and love, but I certainly wasn't feeling cared for or loved when my pastor was denying my most basic identity! It's like this famous quote says: 

 

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

― Mahatma Gandhi

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never read such a load of patronising falsehood as that from Georgia. Call yourself 'Authentic'? Pride!

Just had to say it - it made me so angry. And somewhat surprised that there are such idiotic statements still being made in this century. And you say you live in London?

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Citsonga said:

Welcome, Hole_In_My_Heart.

 

 

That remark from your pastor makes me think of a neighbor I had when growing up. She's cis-female but has no womb. By your pastor's logic, that would make her a man.

 

 

I have a transgender son, so I have firsthand family experience with dealing with the difficulties that come along with that. He is a very impressive individual, I must say, but I'm 99% sure we would've lost him if we had pushed back against it. Well, my wife wasn't receptive at first (she's still a Christian), but he had my full support from the get-go and my wife eventually came around to accepting it.

 

 

I'm sorry to hear about how you were harassed and bullied from the pulpit. It is a difficult subject that a lot of people simply can't wrap their heads around, but knowing that doesn't make it any less difficult to bear.

 

 

That's quite an odd interpretation, but oh well.

 

Anyway, I hope the hole in your heart can get some mending. I wish you the best!

 

Sadly, my pastor seems to be short on logic. Everyone has the right to their opinion, but I think if somebody is speaking in a public setting, especially in a position of authority, they have some sort of responsibility to know if what they're saying has any actual scientific validity, don't they? So many Christians make people feel marginalized rather than included. Jesus repeatedly reached out to lepers, the lowest level of humanity at that place and time, but can you imagine what a modern church would do if a leper actually showed up there one day? Or a even just a woman with a buzz cut, or a man in a skirt? The Bible says to not be concerned about appearance, but heaven help anyone who actually believes that and shows up to church not looking like everybody else!

 

Good on you for your support of your transgender son! Your child is your child, and whatever their gender is, and whether or not it matches what their body looks like, it shouldn't matter. The Bible doesn't list any exceptions to the "love everybody" thing, so I don't understand these people who feel free to reject someone because they are gay, transgender, etc, or to speak out publicly against them.

 

I know that a lot of this gender stuff is very new, and lots of people don't understand it. The thing is, wouldn't it be the duty of a Christian to  try to understand people as part of loving them? Jesus spoke to thousands and thousands of people, so he must've encountered people who were gay, transgender, or non-binary, he could read minds after all so it wouldn't be a secret from him, but you'll notice that he never said anything against any of this stuff when he was speaking. Shouldn't Christians take that to heart?

 

TheRedneckProfessor gave a good answer about Adam, which just means "person" in the original Hebrew, not "man." Because the church has always been patriarchal in nature, the official teaching always has to be that every being of importance is male, that the Father and the Holy Spirit are male despite not having physical bodies and therefore no genitals or Y chromosomes, denial of female angels that are clearly shown in Zechariah, that man was created before woman, and that she was responsible for the fall of humanity… Although my pastor taught that the reason Eve sinned was because Adam failed in his responsibility to tell her exactly what God had told him, and between that and him being the head of their family, Adam was in fact totally responsible for the fall of mankind. He also teaches that because God is referred to as El Shaddai, and Shaddai means breasts, that God is both male and female. Wouldn't you think that given all that, he would have a better than average attitude about this gender stuff? Clearly not! That he would make an official issue of this is so horrifying to me, I still don't have the words for it!

 

Thank you for your good wishes! It's a very weird feeling posting this on a Saturday night, knowing that I will not be going to church tomorrow morning for the first time in a bunch of years. It's amazing how much less stress and more peace I feel, which really tells me something. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I've heard that interpretation before, based on the language used in Genesis 5:2:  "Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created."  The "rib" god took out of Adam to create Eve was supposedly just a metaphor for the female bits.  Based on that interpretation though, and the idea that "they" were created in the image of god, it would logically follow that gender-fluid individuals were closer to god than binaries, given that they would be more purely created in god's image.

 

Right! I had been assuming that people with non-binary genders, either in their brains or in their "parts" or both, were a continuing reflection of how the original human being was a combination of both. That seems totally logical to me, and explains the known facts. Unfortunately, my pastor has demonstrated that he is not interested in either logic or facts. If he's this wrong about something so basic, then what else is he wrong about?

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Georgia said:

Comment removed by buffettphan*

I don’t understand why you ‘authentic Christian believers’ think that you should come to a site called ‘Ex-Christians’. Here on Ex-Christians, most of us have decided we want an escape from Christian Sermons because we are Ex-Christians. Or we are questioning these beliefs and have come here to get opinions that are from people who understand what it is like to be blindly shoved into belief in someone else’s faith and would never want to put that on someone else. On Ex-Christians we care for and support the experiences and journeys of other Ex-Christians or in questioning people and we do not force our current beliefs or ideals on them. We read these testimonies that others have built up the courage to share so that we may in turn understand those people, care for, support, and kindly offer suggestions if it seems to be welcomed. From your post, you do not seem to care for the content of the OP’s story and only wish to force the OP back into Christianity and the Church. Hopefully my reply may enlighten you in the ways of this site called Ex-Christians that it is not a place for Evangelical Conquests.

 

*Welcome @Blue and thank you for your spot-on comment!  

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Georgia said:

Comment removed by buffettphan

God doesn't give a rat's ass about anybody. We all have to help ourselves, not depend on some spooky, invisible father figure for everything. AND...if real Christians uplift instead of judge, then there are very few "real christians" around.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Moderator
14 hours ago, Georgia said:

Comment removed by buffettphan

 

@buffettphan @florduh @Joshpantera

 

The above quote poster, though no doubt meaning well, is pushing their christian viewpoint - not the support Hole-In-My-Heart is looking for I think.

 

@Georgia Not sure what goes through your mind when somebody makes a post the OP did, but the fact that they are on an Ex-Christian site might indicate they are not looking for more religious waffle. Imagine if someone goes to a christian forum asking for prayer and I turn up and tell them that prayer is a load of bullshit. That wouldn't be very mindful of me would it?

 

 

@hole_in_my_heart You appear to be struggling with your religion I do have much to say about what's in the bible, especially Genesis, but only if you are interested in an atheist viewpoint. However assuming you still believe in God and still want to attend Church I would recommend you find a LBGTQ friendly one. They exist... depending on your location. Staying in your current environment is unhealthy. You need to look after you.

 

All the best

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Moderator
2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

@Georgia, that kind of proselytizing belongs in The Lion's Den. 

 

Haha, snap - I just alerted the mods. Yeah, very preachy. I'd love to discuss Genesis with her.... especially since LuthAMF and Christforums arguments (Arguments???) are dead in the water!

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I've heard that interpretation before, based on the language used in Genesis 5:2:  "Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created."  The "rib" god took out of Adam to create Eve was supposedly just a metaphor for the female bits.  Based on that interpretation though, and the idea that "they" were created in the image of god, it would logically follow that gender-fluid individuals were closer to god than binaries, given that they would be more purely created in god's image.

 

Yeah, I do seem to remember hearing that interpretation before, but I'm not aware of anyone whom I know personally actually believing that.

 

4 hours ago, Hole_In_My_Heart said:

I know that a lot of this gender stuff is very new, and lots of people don't understand it. The thing is, wouldn't it be the duty of a Christian to  try to understand people as part of loving them? Jesus spoke to thousands and thousands of people, so he must've encountered people who were gay, transgender, or non-binary, he could read minds after all so it wouldn't be a secret from him, but you'll notice that he never said anything against any of this stuff when he was speaking. Shouldn't Christians take that to heart?

 

Unfortunately, many of them think they do understand. The fact that it's not mentioned by Jesus doesn't matter a whole lot when the Bible elsewhere condemns it. They think it's a message from God and they have the Holy Spirit living in them to guide them, so they think they know what's going on in you better than you do yourself.

 

4 hours ago, Hole_In_My_Heart said:

TheRedneckProfessor gave a good answer about Adam, which just means "person" in the original Hebrew, not "man." Because the church has always been patriarchal in nature, the official teaching always has to be that every being of importance is male, that the Father and the Holy Spirit are male despite not having physical bodies and therefore no genitals or Y chromosomes, denial of female angels that are clearly shown in Zechariah, that man was created before woman, and that she was responsible for the fall of humanity… Although my pastor taught that the reason Eve sinned was because Adam failed in his responsibility to tell her exactly what God had told him, and between that and him being the head of their family, Adam was in fact totally responsible for the fall of mankind. He also teaches that because God is referred to as El Shaddai, and Shaddai means breasts, that God is both male and female. Wouldn't you think that given all that, he would have a better than average attitude about this gender stuff? Clearly not! That he would make an official issue of this is so horrifying to me, I still don't have the words for it!

 

That certainly does make for a bit of a conundrum.

 

2 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Haha, snap - I just alerted the mods. Yeah, very preachy.

 

I also reported it to the moderators (before reading further and seeing that it had already been done). I'm sure Georgia's rule-breaking tripe will be removed.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Super Moderator

Inappropriate comment removed and poster warned.  I am also going to try to delete copies of her text which appear in others' posts.   If the system won't let me and/or I miss something, please please please edit your own comments if you quoted our latest invading Authentic Christian Believer who obviously chose to ignore the very few rules we have here.

 

Thanks,

Buffettphan

 

   

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you, buffetphan.

 

I think the existence of people who are intersex, transgender, hermaphroditic, etc. falsifies the conclusion that the banned poster derived from Genesis. It also helps falsify Genesis.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

I did not mean to cause offence to anyone on this site, especially not Hole in my Heart. 

 

Someone commented and said that people come on here to support one another, I have to say, the original responses given to Hole in my heart seemed to be far from supportive, there actually wasnt much said to uplift and spread love. However, I notice that my post ruffled a lot of feathers and many people have now replied with such passion and anger. Kindly turn that anger towards me into love and send it to Hole in the Heart. It's amazing how people will quickly want to argue before spreading love and support.

 

I have no bad intention of being on this site, you don't even know why or how I found it so please don't judge and just presume I'm looking to start an argument. 

 

I am sorry to all of you who have experienced religion being forced upon you and been made to feel that your not good enough without it. Someone commented on my post and highlighted what I said about true Christians not judging others- the response was there must not be many true christians then.. this is absolutely true, there are not many!! No one has the right to judge, that is spoken, no one is allowed to force scripture upon anybody, that's also spoken. Anyone who has experienced this has not been in the presence of a true Christian and that is fact. Jesus did not force anyone to follow him, it's a choice you have. And I'm so sorry to all of you who have ever ever experienced this. The church has been infiltrated and corrupted, this not holy or sacred anymore. Control is not faith.. faith is a willing choice. 

 

My intention  is not to preach or to push my belief on anybody. When I saw the post I just felt I had to give another view point. 

 

I found this website because I too have been hurt by those who claim to be true believers and I am so disappointed in the church and what it now stands for. I found this site because I too was searching for another view point, but then I came across the post and something made me want to respond as I did, as a Christian. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why was the post moved to the Lions Den? To allow a debate? An argument is not my intention as I have stated. Arguing with another human about the validity of Genesis is not my intention. It''s a waste of time, you do not have superior or divine knowledge that' out of the boundaries of human concept, theory, philosophy etc, so arguing about something you will never understand fully is pointless and harmful. Christians themselves have destroyed the beauty and understanding of true scripture through their human interpretations and ideas of what biblical messages are. When you read the bible with your flesh you will never understand the message, its meant to be read through spirit- I am not preaching, just pointing out a fact. There are millions of Christians reading the bible through their flesh and they will never understand and will continue to teach false messages. 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Georgia said:

....Someone commented on my post and highlighted what I said about true Christians not judging others- the response was there must not be many true christians then.. this is absolutely true, there are not many!! No one has the right to judge,

Don't you think before you post? Look again and see that you are being judgemental. 😮

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

@nontheistpilgrim

 

I do not mean to judge and don't feel I have , please kindly re read my message and understand I am not. In that section you have there I was agreeing with a poster- I have seen and known those who say they are Christian and are not- people in church taking money off people for false donations- that's is wrong, that is a fact not an opinion or judgement, it's fact. 

 

Please show me where I have judged and I will try to learn harder

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Georgia said:

Someone commented and said that people come on here to support one another, I have to say, the original responses given to Hole in my heart seemed to be far from supportive, there actually wasnt much said to uplift and spread love.

 

Actually, we were supportive. You are the only one here who was tearing Hole_In_My_Heart down. Sure, you tried to conceal it in words of "love," but just like Marie in Everybody Loves Raymond, you used positive language to convey a negative message. You also broke the rules of the board by proselytizing in the Testimonies forum.

 

54 minutes ago, florduh said:

You're in the Den now. Feel free to respond.

 

For Hole_In_My_Heart's sake, I don't think the thread should have been moved to the Lion's Den. All that does is invite Georgia and others to spew their garbage in a thread that wasn't started in the Den and shouldn't be bombarded with crap like that. Georgia was free to engage with people already posting in the Lion's Den or start a thread of her own there.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Super Moderator

Should be in the Den, shouldn't be in the Den......... let's see, whom should I strive to please.........

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Citsonga

 

In absolutely no way was a tearing Hole in the heart down, my words were far from negative. I have completely established that the Pastor was wrong, I explained that I work and support those struggling with gender issues and I know the pain is real. I simply suggested that there is a way to love God and struggle with gender issues. No one is exempt from the love of God, it's a difficult path, it's not easy and sometimes not everything will be in your favour but that doesn't mean that I don't speak of Love because what I am saying is not in your favour or moral code. 

 

This situation is extremely deep and very important for all to understand what is happening in this life. We are taught to live by the needs of our flesh - on purpose- to separate you from the divine journey of knowing god. It's not fair for anybody to be taught to live in the flesh and then expected to also abandon the idea and just follow Christ and his ways. The deception from the church is one of the most heartbreaking. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

In absolutely no way was a tearing Hole in the heart down, my words were far from negative.

 

Hogwash. Using "words" that don't sound negative to convey a message that is negative doesn't change the fact that the content was negative. In your now deleted first post you went on to insinuate that HIMH is confused and wrong.

 

If you don't want to tear down HIMH, then you should sincerely apologize for your insinuation and explicitly state that there is nothing wrong with HIMH, that they're fine the way they are. Can you do that?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.