How do you become an atheist without reading the bible and truely understanding scripture? Does life's trauma's play a part in why it's so hard to have faith?

[disillusioned]

This is a strange place to pose the question of the OP. This is ExC. With a very few exceptions, we've all read and studied the Bible. A lot.

 

However, it is absolutely not necessary to do so to reject Christianity. Your assertion regarding Christianity being unique among religions in that it's holy book is more than just a book of stories is itself not unique, somewhat ironically. I know many muslims who claim precisely the same thing about the Qur'an.

[older]

I am one of those who has not read much of the Bible. The default position of a newborn is to not believe, and that’s my default. I do not desire to pursue the Bible any further because what I have read is absolutely preposterous. It makes no more sense to me than Santa. Christianity says that there is this power up there somewhere that made everything, can do anything (but as Harris, quoted above, wrote, won’t save dying children), knows everything, and has planned everything that is yet to come. If this deity has all these powers, why did he bother to create man? So he could treat man the way a cat plays with a mouse before eating it? Here’s the capper (the following words are not original with me): the core of Christianity is based on the idea that this deity sent himself to earth and then killed himself in order to avenge himself for a curse that he put on us because one of our distant ancestors ate fruit off a magical tree after being told to do it by a talking snake. Seriously?

 

Jumping back for a moment, let’s take a look at God’s love. I’m not going to clutter up the thread with photos, so here are some links. There are only four, but if that’s not enough for you, I could put up a thousand, or ten thousand, or how many you would like. What I would like you to do is to look at these photos — really look, not just a quick glance — and then we’ll talk about God’s love. And I will maintain that any god who would cause or allow this to happen is a piece of shit. (And, as Harris says, if he can't control it, then he's impotent, so why bother.) But until you guarantee that you have looked long at these, there is no need for further discussion.

 

https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/105887d1259184061-chernobyl-victims-child-victim.jpg

 

https://sites.psu.edu/siowfa14/wp-content/uploads/sites/13467/2014/09/chernobyl1.jpg

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XynkZS3XyMw/TKEUFkCht_I/AAAAAAAAH8Q/VSl0jfTkucw/s400/Paul+Fusco14.jpg

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_hJqfq-oN10/Tt1H_ljPO-I/AAAAAAAAAEo/DWx1EcGFBPc/s1600/chernobyl+2.jpg

[older]

Well, it looks as though Georgia has left us like many others do when challenged with some very hard facts and questions. We wish you well, Georgia.

[nontheistpilgrim]

Yeah, been watching for Georgia. Arrived on a Sunday morning, gone by the evening. I really did want to know her Christian connections in London!

Ho hum!

[Georgia]

7 hours ago, nontheistpilgrim said:

Yeah, been watching for Georgia. Arrived on a Sunday morning, gone by the evening. I really did want to know her Christian connections in London!

Ho hum!

 

Hi! 

 

Sorry, I work in healthcare and it's so full and demanding, I just haven't had much of a chance to log back on. 

 

As I have mentioned a few times in previous posts, there are many people who claim to be religious leaders but are really sheep in wolves clothing. I am not mainstream, I am non denominational and have found it really hard to settle into a congregation. I do my own bible study and listen to Evangelist Preachers like Derek Prince and David Lynn. 

 

I started off in the Church of England but I didn't find a church that I connected with, I some how started looking into Judaism, then also JW, felt really lost and abandoned faith then one day I came across the preacher Derek Prince and I gave myself to Christ again and have been non denominational ever since. 

 

 

 

[Georgia]

On 7/29/2019 at 1:46 PM, older said:

I am one of those who has not read much of the Bible. The default position of a newborn is to not believe, and that’s my default. I do not desire to pursue the Bible any further because what I have read is absolutely preposterous. It makes no more sense to me than Santa. Christianity says that there is this power up there somewhere that made everything, can do anything (but as Harris, quoted above, wrote, won’t save dying children), knows everything, and has planned everything that is yet to come. If this deity has all these powers, why did he bother to create man? So he could treat man the way a cat plays with a mouse before eating it? Here’s the capper (the following words are not original with me): the core of Christianity is based on the idea that this deity sent himself to earth and then killed himself in order to avenge himself for a curse that he put on us because one of our distant ancestors ate fruit off a magical tree after being told to do it by a talking snake. Seriously?

 

Jumping back for a moment, let’s take a look at God’s love. I’m not going to clutter up the thread with photos, so here are some links. There are only four, but if that’s not enough for you, I could put up a thousand, or ten thousand, or how many you would like. What I would like you to do is to look at these photos — really look, not just a quick glance — and then we’ll talk about God’s love. And I will maintain that any god who would cause or allow this to happen is a piece of shit. (And, as Harris says, if he can't control it, then he's impotent, so why bother.) But until you guarantee that you have looked long at these, there is no need for further discussion.

 

https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/105887d1259184061-chernobyl-victims-child-victim.jpg

 

https://sites.psu.edu/siowfa14/wp-content/uploads/sites/13467/2014/09/chernobyl1.jpg

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XynkZS3XyMw/TKEUFkCht_I/AAAAAAAAH8Q/VSl0jfTkucw/s400/Paul+Fusco14.jpg

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_hJqfq-oN10/Tt1H_ljPO-I/AAAAAAAAAEo/DWx1EcGFBPc/s1600/chernobyl+2.jpg

Hi 

 

I have looked at the pictures and yes they are awful. 

 

Ive worked in healthcare for nearly 10 years and trust me I have seen and heard some pretty horrendous things. I have experience in autism, learning disabilities, mental health, pallative care, multiple sclerosis, degenerate muscle disorder, dementia and so many other things. 

 

I know pain and suffering, I see it every day, part of my job is to help relieve this suffering but you must read the text to understand that disability is not necessarily caused by God. The Bible gives many examples of reasons for disability- sin, demons, accidents, god himself making a man blind to shape his life. Christ himself explains that people will suffer but you have to keep believing through the struggle. 

 

As I mentioned in a previous post, if we talk of God we must also talk of Satan. Through him evil entered the world not through God. Yes God created Lucifer but he himself chose to become Satan through arrogance and being power hungry. Yes the generational curse began with Adam and Eve, it states in Romans that through one man sin entered the world. 

 

In terms of letting children die, you must understand this world is not our final destination. Scripture explains that we will receive eternal life and advises not to get too caught up in the world and also it's suffering- this seems to be inevitable to coincide with our existence. If you consider the idea of eternal life, suffering for 80-100 years is a small piece of the pie. We are so consumed by the world and our flesh that it makes it hard to see understand the beauty of the gift promised. 

 

Man was also given the gift of choice, if he created us with the ability to not have choice you'd call him oppressive, but from the start we were given the opportunity to make decisions for ourselves and we failed. We disobeyed the Lord- and this was the first generation of man, there were only 2 people alive and we messed it up!!! What chance do we now have with billions of us!! My point is, God is not playing Cat and Mouse, that's Satan, he has given us a clear explanation on what we should be doing and how we should be living we just chose not to! 

 

 

[older]

5 hours ago, Griffin said:

The president elect has to swear an oath on the christian bible before he can take office

Sorry Griffin, this is not correct. A Google search will reveal multiple sources to verify that it is not required. Many incoming presidents do out of tradition, but there is at least one who has not. To require it would be a clear violation of the First Amendment.

 

Glad you're back, Georgia. We suspected you were busy.

5 hours ago, Georgia said:

disability is not necessarily caused by God. The Bible gives many examples of reasons for disability- sin, demons, accidents, god himself making a man blind to shape his life.

If everything happens according to your god's plan and your god plans this or allows this to happen, then, as I said above, he is a piece of shit. If a parent did to his or her children what your god does to some people, that parent would be in jail for a long, long time. If it is not part of god's plan, then he hasn't planned everything, or he is impotent, or doesn't care.

 

5 hours ago, Georgia said:

Man was also given the gift of choice, if he created us with the ability to not have choice you'd call him oppressive, but from the start we were given the opportunity to make decisions for ourselves and we failed. We disobeyed the Lord- and this was the first generation of man, there were only 2 people alive and we messed it up!!! What chance do we now have with billions of us!! My point is, God is not playing Cat and Mouse, that's Satan, he has given us a clear explanation on what we should be doing and how we should be living we just chose not to! 

The Free Will argument. "If he created us with the ability to not have choice you'd call him oppressive...." Well, he is oppressive. Under your theology, there is no real choice. If a thug comes up to you on the street, points a gun at your head and says, "You have free will. You may choose to give me your wallet or not. But if you don't, I will blow your brains out." That's not free will. We put those types in jail. A man says to his girlfriend, "You have free will. Love me or I'll make your life miserable. (Or kill you.)" Happens too often. That's not free will. Those guys get restraining orders or put in jail. So your god says, "You have free will. Love me or I'll send you to an eternity of unimaginable pain and suffering." That's not free will.

 

And notwithstanding the free will argument, why should children be punished for the misdeeds of their parents? So your god creates these two people but since he knows everything, he knows what's going to happen, so a talking snake (really??) tells them to do something, which they do, and your god gets mad so to get even he kills his own son. Are you really serious about this or are you just trolling us?

 

As to Satan, if your god is omnipotent and good, he'd eliminate Satan. If he can't, then he's not omnipotent, and if he can but won't, then he's not a good god.

 

And regarding the legendary Adam and Eve, if they were the original two people, then their children would have had to commit incest to create the rest of everyone. Hm. Ditto Noah's family. (Which leads me to the issue of the flood..... if your god is so powerful, all he had to do would have been to come down and tell everyone to knock it off. If he's got all these powers he could have used them in a constructive, rather than a destructive, way. Drowning a bunch of people including children is not the mark of a good god.)

 

 

As I've written before, the whole thing is absolutely preposterous and completely indefensible.

[nontheistpilgrim]

16 hours ago, Georgia said:

 

Hi! 

 

Sorry, I work in healthcare and it's so full and demanding, I just haven't had much of a chance to log back on. 

 

As I have mentioned a few times in previous posts, there are many people who claim to be religious leaders but are really sheep in wolves clothing. I am not mainstream, I am non denominational and have found it really hard to settle into a congregation. I do my own bible study and listen to Evangelist Preachers like Derek Prince and David Lynn. 

 

I started off in the Church of England but I didn't find a church that I connected with, I some how started looking into Judaism, then also JW, felt really lost and abandoned faith then one day I came across the preacher Derek Prince and I gave myself to Christ again and have been non denominational ever since. 

 

 

 

I am interested in what you say. Do you mean that you do not attend a congregation but are able to exist on audio sermons and your own study?

[Georgia]

13 hours ago, older said:

Sorry Griffin, this is not correct. A Google search will reveal multiple sources to verify that it is not required. Many incoming presidents do out of tradition, but there is at least one who has not. To require it would be a clear violation of the First Amendment.

 

Glad you're back, Georgia. We suspected you were busy.

If everything happens according to your god's plan and your god plans this or allows this to happen, then, as I said above, he is a piece of shit. If a parent did to his or her children what your god does to some people, that parent would be in jail for a long, long time. If it is not part of god's plan, then he hasn't planned everything, or he is impotent, or doesn't care.

 

The Free Will argument. "If he created us with the ability to not have choice you'd call him oppressive...." Well, he is oppressive. Under your theology, there is no real choice. If a thug comes up to you on the street, points a gun at your head and says, "You have free will. You may choose to give me your wallet or not. But if you don't, I will blow your brains out." That's not free will. We put those types in jail. A man says to his girlfriend, "You have free will. Love me or I'll make your life miserable. (Or kill you.)" Happens too often. That's not free will. Those guys get restraining orders or put in jail. So your god says, "You have free will. Love me or I'll send you to an eternity of unimaginable pain and suffering." That's not free will.

 

And notwithstanding the free will argument, why should children be punished for the misdeeds of their parents? So your god creates these two people but since he knows everything, he knows what's going to happen, so a talking snake (really??) tells them to do something, which they do, and your god gets mad so to get even he kills his own son. Are you really serious about this or are you just trolling us?

 

As to Satan, if your god is omnipotent and good, he'd eliminate Satan. If he can't, then he's not omnipotent, and if he can but won't, then he's not a good god.

 

And regarding the legendary Adam and Eve, if they were the original two people, then their children would have had to commit incest to create the rest of everyone. Hm. Ditto Noah's family. (Which leads me to the issue of the flood..... if your god is so powerful, all he had to do would have been to come down and tell everyone to knock it off. If he's got all these powers he could have used them in a constructive, rather than a destructive, way. Drowning a bunch of people including children is not the mark of a good god.)

 

 

As I've written before, the whole thing is absolutely preposterous and completely indefensible.

, "You have free will. You may choose to give me your wallet or not. But if you don't, I will blow your brains out." That's not free will. We put those types in jail. A man says to hisgirlfriend, "You have free will. Love me or I'll make your life miserable. (Or kill you.)" Happens too often.That's not free will-- I don't think this captures what I am saying! The idea is the same as the government we live under- you can do as you want but if you rebel you will be punished. You commit a crime you go to prison. You just don't agree with the laws that God has set because they satisfy your flesh. People want to be sexually immoral, abuse their bodies with food, alcohol,  gossip, tell lies, be vain, be selfish and love money. He is the creator and he sets the law- as the governments do, you are just chosing not to follow God's law, but you follow the government's so your already in that situation.  As I said, people just don't want to believe that living by flesh is wrong. People just want to do whatever they like. When you live by flesh your not free, your actually being controlled by Satan. Look at the motto of the Satanic church, it's all about feeding into whatever you like and doing what the flesh dictates. 

 

Your point about Adam and Eve in the garden- You have to try to put yourself in God's position, he gave them 1 rule only and they broke it, yes he would have known the consequences of breaking that rule and he punished as he saw fit. As do the government's of this world.

 

The point about Satan, from the beginning it seems that everything has a choice, Lucifer was the brightest angel and chose to separate himself from God and became Satan. Therefore Adam and Eve had a choice and failed, we all have a choice and can chose to be one with God or with Satan. God is all loving and wants you to love him out of choice not fear because you saw him have a huge battle with Satan and are afraid of his power. He wants you to find him through love and faith. Satan creates evil, people chose to do evil, why are you not blaming Satan? You go commit a crime and tell the authorities to arrest your father for them, doesn't make sense. He is the all mighty god but have given everything a choice.

 

As for the flood- if you can imagine a time worse than now, the bible explains people's hearts were so wicked and the earth was corrupted- they were not good people . This had to happen in order to try to start again. There are lots of documentaries on the flood, I will recommend some later, just got in and very tired.

 

 

 

 

[Georgia]

All this doom and gloom about God. So if you could agree as far as him being bad for creating bad things, would you also then agree he's good for creating all the good things in the world? The magnificent creation? If you blame him for others wrong doing, would you then also praise him for others good deeds and success? 

 

Can you guys tell me how you thought you got here and what your purpose's are? 

[Georgia]

7 hours ago, nontheistpilgrim said:

I am interested in what you say. Do you mean that you do not attend a congregation but are able to exist on audio sermons and your own study?

For now yes but I am looking for an extremely simple place of worship that doesn't deviate from scripture and set it's own agenda- like the Catholic Church. 

 

Christianity has been infected 

[Joshpantera]

3 hours ago, Georgia said:

All this doom and gloom about God. So if you could agree as far as him being bad for creating bad things, would you also then agree he's good for creating all the good things in the world? The magnificent creation? If you blame him for others wrong doing, would you then also praise him for others good deeds and success? 

 

Can you guys tell me how you thought you got here and what your purpose's are? 

 

What would be the conclusion then, Georgia? God is both good and bad? Contradicting the claim that god is all good? 

 

I actually came here from following a link a long time ago. I decided that it was a unique community and stuck around. The purpose is encouraging struggling christians and ex christians in helpful ways. 

 

 

[older]

5 hours ago, Georgia said:

God is all loving

The photos I linked to prove to me that he is not.

 

As to free will, I think you and I have different definitions of what that is. You say that if you violate your god's laws you will be punished. I say that your god says either you love him or he will send you to a eternity of unspeakable pain and suffering, and that such is not free will.

 

As to Satan, you have not addressed the fundamental question: If your god is omnipotent and a good god, he would eliminate your satan, and if he won't, then your god is not good, and if he can't, then he is not omnipotent, which undermines the whole theology.

 

And finally, you have not addressed the issue of the flood: that your god, being all powerful, could have used non-destructive means to correct the behavior he objected to.

[Astreja]

On 8/2/2019 at 5:56 PM, Georgia said:

In terms of letting children die, you must understand this world is not our final destination

 

 

Technically, this is true.  In about three billion years, the Andromeda Galaxy will collide with the Milky Way Galaxy and merge with it, probably with substantial disruption of the existing solar systems in this galaxy.

 

And if that doesn't take out the Earth, wait another two billion years.  Our sun is fated to become a red giant, and its boundaries will expand beyond the Earth's orbit and fry this cute little planet to a crisp.

 

Eventually, and through whatever means, the atoms in our bodies will become part of something else that is not us, something that is no longer on this planet.  As I see it, this is inevitable.

 

Quote

Scripture explains that we will receive eternal life...

 

Georgia, just to remind you, this is an Ex-Christian site.  Scripture no longer holds any authority for the vast majority of us.  I, for one, believe that your god is fictional and that life after death is impossible.

[Astreja]

8 hours ago, Georgia said:

Can you guys tell me how you thought you got here and what your purpose's are? 

 

How did we get here?  Through biochemical processes driven by natural forces over billions of years, on a foundation of eternally-existing matter/energy.

 

My purpose?  Whatever - I - want it to be.  A purpose that is assigned to you by anyone else, be it a god or a mortal, is part of their purpose rather than the entirety of your own.

[LogicalFallacy]

On 8/3/2019 at 10:56 AM, Georgia said:

As I mentioned in a previous post, if we talk of God we must also talk of Satan. Through him evil entered the world not through God. Yes God created Lucifer but he himself chose to become Satan through arrogance and being power hungry. Yes the generational curse began with Adam and Eve, it states in Romans that through one man sin entered the world. 

 

For this to be true your God has to be limited and not perfect.

 

Let me explain. If you happen to be an all powerful being that created everything, then that means you have to have created suffering and evil. When God created Lucifer according to you, then he had to create him with the ability and propensity to do evil. I don't think theists think carefully enough about what it means to have a pre existing creator. Now it's possible that God is not all knowing nor all perfect, and therefore its possible that he could create flawed beings capable of evil. But then why worship such a being? It's simple a human that's uber super advanced. The only reason to worship another being IMO is if it's all perfect (Ironically an all perfect being wouldn't require others to worship it). But if that being is creating flawed creations then ipso facto it is not perfect.

 

First God created angels. 1/3 of them rebelled. We are off to a great start. God is 0 for 1. God then creates the earth and Eden. He see's it is very good. Adam and Eve then eat a magical fruit... which one has to wonder why God put it there. (Maybe he's a malevolent God). So humans are cast out. God is 0 for 2. Then humankind manages to really piss him off and he destroys the whole world with a flood. 0 for 3. Then he gives a certain tribe more privileges and rights than others and they manage to constantly stuff things up until God decides to bypass the Judaic idea with Jesus. 0 for 4. And according to Revelations things are so bad that God is going to destroy the earth again and take some special people to Heaven. 0 for 5 and I don't rate those folks chances in heaven to highly. Pretty sure something is gonna go wrong there to and it will be 0 for 6.

 

So much for a perfect God with a perfect plan. Sound more like me bumbling my way to making my own fish pie recipe.  

[midniterider]

20 hours ago, Georgia said:

All this doom and gloom about God. So if you could agree as far as him being bad for creating bad things, would you also then agree he's good for creating all the good things in the world? The magnificent creation? If you blame him for others wrong doing, would you then also praise him for others good deeds and success? 

 

Can you guys tell me how you thought you got here and what your purpose's are? 

 

My purpose is to enjoy life. Have fun. Be nice to other people. How did I get here? Mom gave birth to me. How I got to Ex-c? Googled ex-christian probably. How did humanity get here? Evolution from a one celled organism...or maybe aliens planted us (jk).

[older]

Hey Georgia, a question just to get a better understanding of your position:

As to the Bible, are you a literalist? Do you believe that the entire contents is true exactly as written?

Or are you (what would be a good antonym for "literalist"?) an allegoricalist? Do you believe that the Bible is a symbolical narrative, a guide, but should not be taken literally?

 

Thanks.

[nontheistpilgrim]

On 8/3/2019 at 11:10 PM, Georgia said:

For now yes but I am looking for an extremely simple place of worship that doesn't deviate from scripture and set it's own agenda- like the Catholic Church. 

 

Christianity has been infected 

You remind me of a story from my youth. Of a person who spent time looking for the perfect church. When she found it, it became no longer perfect.

 

[Myrkhoos]

On 8/3/2019 at 9:45 PM, Georgia said:

All this doom and gloom about God. So if you could agree as far as him being bad for creating bad things, would you also then agree he's good for creating all the good things in the world? The magnificent creation? If you blame him for others wrong doing, would you then also praise him for others good deeds and success? 

 

Can you guys tell me how you thought you got here and what your purpose's are? 

Hello.

 

First a book recomandation. A well respected Bible scholar across the board. Bart Ehrman . He has a book about the bible and suffering. Pretty sure he surpasses each and every one of us in knowledge about the Bible and the history of christianity. Plus he has many debates on Yt.

 

Second a sincere appreciation for the work you do in healthcare. Must be exhausting at times.hugs!

 

Third, you have listed some ideas which have a rather rich theological and philosophical tradition. One of them is free will. There are very early theologians , like Isaac the Syrian that say that although beings have free will, ultimately God controls everything, even their choices. A divine form of compatibilism. It is nigh imposdoble to reduce that history in a couple of posts, so bare that in mind. 

       The problem of Satan is a complicated one and I will try to make the most simple argument. God created beings sinless, without blame. A sinless being is unable to sin. If it it can that means that God could sin but chooses not to. That means even in God there arise wicked thoughts. If that happens it means he is also some part evil. Which for many is blasphemy. So this being, lucifer, living in ultimate bliss and knowkedge, not only can produce wicked thoughts/ ideas which means a part of him is sick/ evil from the start as evil cannot arise from good, but he acts according to them , showing, if nothing else, sheer stupidity, acting against his own well being and against his prior knowledge. I inferr from this that he had a part which was extremely stupid and one which was extremely evil. There is no explanation about where these parts appeared from. God did not, it is said , created them , and kucifer could not have created them . Because, as anyone knows, all choices and actions free or not are made for some reason , a preexistent reason. To say he acted out of pride means he had pride in him before the choice and the stupidity to act on that choice.  So from the start lucifer was at least in part wicked or deluded, or became so, in a world created pure by God. Which seems absurd.

Second, Adam and Eve. They chose to believe the serpent, let s say a flying monster over their father and creator and caretaker. What does that say about them? How utterly deluded could you be? Do you, if you see shady looking drug dealer who tells you that you know, that whole thing about drug addiction is just a conspiracy of your best and most helping relatives, believe him? I mean how naive are you? And they had spiritual wisdom, a direct connection with God, no passions. How many children from loving families do you think end up gang bangers, for example? So , for me, Genesis presents contradictions. Either Adam and Eve and Lucifer were created flawed, or the concept of sin is irrelevant and all they did was actually good. 

     And yeah, by the way, first you have to prove free will exists ( and good luck with that!) before using it as an argument. 

   

[mwc]

.

 

 

[TruthSeeker0]

On 7/28/2019 at 1:39 PM, Georgia said:

Dear Atheists,

 

I am intrigued to know how you can become an atheist when lots have not even read the bible? How can you hate a God you haven't bothered to get to know? I see lots of posts talking about suffering and god letting people die!!! If you read scripture you'd have an understanding, but it seems post just believe what they've been told by other non believers or even worse people who claim to be Christian but have no idea what it really means to be faith..

For you to come here and claim that exchristians here just really had "no idea what it means to have faith" and to not have enough "knowledge" (aka "enlightenment or something in your words, because the Bible can be interpreted in as many ways as there are people on this Earth) is incredulous. It's also so condescending and patronizing - a God we haven't bothered to get to know? Seriously? Have you even read through the extimony section?  

Read Richard Dawkins. Read some Bart Ehrman. Read some Elaine Pagels. Read some Dan Barker. With an open mind.  Educate yourself on what scholars say about the Bible (no not your church pastor who claims to have the truth) before coming here and stating that we just believe " what we've been told by other non believers." 

I'll leave you with a short quote I've used many times on this site already. 

"I do understand what love is, and that is one of the reasons I can never again be a Christian. Love is not self denial. Love is not blood and suffering. Love is not murdering your son to appease your own vanity. Love is not hatred or wrath, consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules. Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being." -Dan Barker

[freshstart]

 

On 7/28/2019 at 1:39 PM, Georgia said:

Dear Atheists,

 

I am intrigued to know how you can become an atheist when lots have not even read the bible? How can you hate a God you haven't bothered to get to know? I see lots of posts talking about suffering and god letting people die!!! If you read scripture you'd have an understanding, but it seems post just believe what they've been told by other non believers or even worse people who claim to be Christian but have no idea what it really means to be faith..

Dear Georgia,

What leads you to believe that ANY of the atheists here have not read the bible? This is an ex-Christian website which means MANY of us have not only read the bible, but studied it with such intensity that it no longer held up to careful scrutiny.

None of us hate God any more than we hate Santa Claus. And most of us felt we "knew God" or made a long and earnest attempt to do so. But tell me, how does anyone "know God?" What does that entail compared to "knowing" a fellow human?

What evidence do you have to support your assumption that most of us "just believe what we've been told by other non believers?"

Do you have any idea how arrogant it is to make these kind of assumptions? There are former pastors, missionaries, theological scholars, and ex-Christians of EVERY denomination and non-denomination here.

If an atheist, Jew, or Muslim becomes a Christian, I doubt you find yourself questioning whether they were ever a "true atheist, true Jew, or true Muslim."

Perhaps it is frightening to think that it is possible for people (who were just like you) to reject a belief that they once held as the solemn truth. This may not apply to you, but for some Christians it is too painful and too scary to admit the possibility that many folks have come to reject Christianity as a result of studying the bible -not ignoring it. These Christians try to insert their own narrative into our stories in order to make sense of something that seems unfathomable. Please don't make that mistake.

[Myrkhoos]

I remember a moment when I was reading a book on the suffering of the ukrainian people in the imposed famine in the 30 s. I then believed suffering had a higher purpose. Upon reading about that kind of torture for millions I caved in. All my readings and knowledge faded in a torrent of true compassion and inwatdly cried how can you do this! There are moments when logic fails me, I will admit, and face of true horror is for me unforgivable. At least know. Your God, Georgia, needs my forgivness, not I his. Yes, as Christians says, God is beyond human abilities, so I do admit, it is beyond my abilities to accept such horror with a gleeful face. You want to use your faith as a defense mechanism against the pain of others and your own, as alcholics use drinking? Be my guest. But many of latter are more honest, and will, as Jesus said, inherit the kingdom of heaven sooner than the pharisees who have all the correct answers and correct rituals. You want to find your true Christians, you will find the amongst these people here many of whom have cried endlesly my god why have you forsaken me? and the world, but have not been readily ressurected to shining glory, but still suffer with honesty. Maybe, YOU will have the surprise to see this people in heaven who have done the works of true charity, while those that prophesized in his name, like the christians of today, will be cast out. 

[older]

Well, Georgia seems to have left us like so many of them do. When they discover that their position isn't defensible, they go away. Too bad. It would have been nice to continue the discussion.