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Griffin

Prove Him, then we'll debate

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1 hour ago, Justus said:

 

I was just responding to your 'wait for gravity is a belief' comment.  In such,  I think the fact you can't articulate what exactly what gravity is qualifies as a 'gravity is a belief' comment thus ending the necessity for us to wait on it.      .:wave:

 

Well, if the Bible is sometimes incorrect then it must be correct at other times or else you wouldn't have specified the 'sometimes' part.  But of course you might have meant that sometimes a person's interpretation of the Bible is incorrect.  So what exactly is the bet cause I count 22 instances where the Bible incorrectly spelled defense.:nono:

 

 For wisdom is a defence, and money is a defence: but the excellency of knowledge is, that wisdom giveth life to them that have it. Eccl 7:12 
 

 

 

I know what gravity is. I see it in operation. I'm not a physicist though so I cant explain much else about it.

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17 minutes ago, Griffin said:

 

What better proof than congressional records, US CODE books, etc., could exist to prove its a fascist institution (corporation) and not a sovereign government/nation?

STFU  Government is just a reflection of the people. 

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12 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

I know what gravity is. I see it in operation. I'm not a physicist though so I cant explain much else about it.

 

Sure you do  :liar:By the way I am just f'n with you,  the way I look at it people are free to believe what they want.

 

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2 hours ago, Justus said:

STFU  Government is just a reflection of the people. 

 

No, it is not.

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9 hours ago, Griffin said:

 

I guess we are all tired of being lied to and we are questioning everything. Understandable, I do it too and we are not going to find a source that is 'the history of the world', you have to connect the dots, and you cannot trust mainstream academia. Why do I say that, because in American schools children are not taught the USG went bankrupt and became insolvent in 1933 and lost it sovereignty. The United States is no longer a government, or a sovereign nation, and hasn't been for 86 years. This is how good they cover-up history even though you can find the proof on the government's website.

     Um, okay.

 

Quote

When I have time I will put together the sources for Serapis/Christ in Egypt and how Zeus/Satan eventually became 'Jesus' in 1630. I've been working on it for quite a while but haven't finished filling all the holes.

     Given everything that has come so far I can't wait.

 

     Looks like I'll have time to go buy myself plenty of tinfoil.

 

          mwc

 

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53 minutes ago, mwc said:

     Um, okay.

 

     Given everything that has come so far I can't wait.

 

     Looks like I'll have time to go buy myself plenty of tinfoil.

 

          mwc

 

 

The heart felt welcome from all of you is overwhelming. You guys must help lots of people. What a joke.

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3 minutes ago, Griffin said:

 

The heart felt welcome from all of you is overwhelming. You guys must help lots of people. What a joke.

🙆‍♂️

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3 hours ago, Justus said:

 

Sure you do  :liar:By the way I am just f'n with you,  the way I look at it people are free to believe what they want.

 

 

:) ok. 

 

That's the way I look at it. Let people believe what they want. 

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2 hours ago, Griffin said:

 

The heart felt welcome from all of you is overwhelming. You guys must help lots of people. What a joke.

     What sort of help would you like from me?  Because, as I see it, I am helping you.

 

          mwc

 

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@Griffin he has a point. You started this thread about first proving claims. So it makes little sense to get hung up on the bit about Serapis because it's not a firm position to take. I'm aware of it. I used to moderate for DM Murdock, author of "Christ in Egypt: The Horus - Jesus Connection." Trust me, while a lot of the content is interesting I would advise caution before trying make big arguments about some of the more speculative material. There's just too many unknowns at play in the historical jesus debates. I'll say this, though, christian origins is a murky issue and they may have started much earlier than what most people assume. There's just a lot going on there. Just be cautious about how you approach trying to debate christians about these issues. That's good advice in my experience. 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

@Griffin he has a point. You started this thread about first proving claims. So it makes little sense to get hung up on the bit about Serapis because it's not a firm position to take. I'm aware of it. I used to moderate for DM Murdock, author of "Christ in Egypt: The Horus - Jesus Connection." Trust me, while a lot of the content is interesting I would advise caution before trying make big arguments about some of the more speculative material. There's just too many unknowns at play in the historical jesus debates. I'll say this, though, christian origins is a murky issue and they may have started much earlier than what most people assume. There's just a lot going on there. Just be cautious about how you approach trying to debate christians about these issues. That's good advice in my experience. 

 

 

 

You are right. Speculative material is dangerous. The existence of Jesus is speculative, yet here is ex-christian.net allegedly helping people get over the man. I say allegedly because it would be speculative if I didn't. Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction. It was first declared fact, then it was just speculation, then it was proven false, yet so many people lost their lives based on that original statement.

 

What's a person to do? What saith the behavioral scientists that speculate with the lives of people to benefit a few? Christianity factually has lead to the murder and oppression of so many people, along with unimaginable mind-terror, the numbers can't be counted. All that has been, and is still carried out based on the writings of government sponsored behavior scientists so many years ago - and that is provable beyond any doubt.

 

So what's the next behavioral science experiment? When are they going to conduct an 'expert' study and figure out why they (the government-sponsored behavioral scientists) are such cruel and inhuman mind-fuckers?

 

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I sense woo woo.

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On 8/8/2019 at 9:06 PM, Griffin said:

The existence of Jesus is speculative, yet here is ex-christian.net allegedly helping people get over the man. I say allegedly because it would be speculative if I didn't. Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction. It was first declared fact, then it was just speculation, then it was proven false, yet so many people lost their lives based on that original statement.

 

Yes, the historical  and / or current existence is a matter of speculation. Presupposition, if you will. Ex-C would be better described as helping people get over the "myth" of jesus. Because regardless of historical value, the stories are myths and legends any which way they are spun. So the people recovering are in like fashion recovering from beliefs concerning myths and legends. 

 

And of course christianity was originally claimed as true, scholars learned how speculative the initial claims were, and then certain claims are proving to be false as contrary evidence pours in all the time. 

 

On 8/8/2019 at 9:06 PM, Griffin said:

What's a person to do? What saith the behavioral scientists that speculate with the lives of people to benefit a few? Christianity factually has lead to the murder and oppression of so many people, along with unimaginable mind-terror, the numbers can't be counted. All that has been, and is still carried out based on the writings of government sponsored behavior scientists so many years ago - and that is provable beyond any doubt.

 

So what's the next behavioral science experiment? When are they going to conduct an 'expert' study and figure out why they (the government-sponsored behavioral scientists) are such cruel and inhuman mind-fuckers?

 

That goes away from discussing religion and towards discussing politics by bringing government into the mix. But we need to keep the two (government and religion) separate as per the forum rules and guidelines. Politics and related issues are only allowed in the "totally off topic" section:

 

https://www.ex-christian.net/forum/52-totally-off-topic/

 

 

 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Yes, the historical  and / or current existence is a matter of speculation. Presupposition, if you will. Ex-C would be better described as helping people get over the "myth" of jesus. Because regardless of historical value, the stories are myths and legends any which way they are spun. So the people recovering are in like fashion recovering from beliefs concerning myths and legends. 

 

And of course christianity was originally claimed as true, scholars learned how speculative the initial claims were, and then certain claims are proving to be false as contrary evidence pours in all the time. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I liked the difference you maked here. The difference between the historical event and the myths and stories constructed around it.  This, I think, is a valuable way of thinking in general about history, and culture in general.

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6 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

I liked the difference you maked here. The difference between the historical event and the myths and stories constructed around it.  This, I think, is a valuable way of thinking in general about history, and culture in general.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

That goes away from discussing religion and towards discussing politics by bringing government into the mix. But we need to keep the two (government and religion) separate as per the forum rules and guidelines. Politics and related issues are only allowed in the "totally off topic" section:

 

 

OK, but you must be aware there is no way to separate government from religion because governments are based on religious beliefs. It wasn't Muslims that invaded the Americas, slaughtered the indigenous, and formed a government. It wasn't Jews that invaded the Americas, slaughtered the natives, and formed a government. It was Christians and those beliefs carried over into the  government - also provable beyond any reasonable doubt. The president elect cannot take office without making an oath on the Bible and so there really is no separation of church and state.

 

The Biblical beliefs of a chosen race (white) as being superior, along with the god endorsed slavery of, what did god say about them, oh yeah his chosen were not to have sex with "men whose dicks are the size of a donkeys", and all the reset of the Biblical evil that has manifested not just in the government, but the military, not to mention in the good old boys that decided they had a right to invade, slaughter, and take land that didn't belong to them as directed by the Biblical god - some thing they are doing to the middle east now.

 

So, how do you separate government from religion when society plays out the Bible "isms"? And wouldn't it be a big help to everyone, not just Christians, but everyone to see just how Christian the government is? Just because a person leaves Christianity, which in its base form is a system of mind-control, doesn't mean they escaped all the effects of Christianity when those beliefs are so embedded in the status-quo and society (because of the government), which is also a system of mind-control, but I suspect you know that because I see efforts here where people are controlled, I mean guided, into some new system of mind-control which isn't any different than the one they left.

 

Governments govern. Religions govern. No where in my post did "politics" surface. The founders of this forum are military men, at least one was, so how did they keep their military beliefs from manifesting in posts when everything they learned in the military is also from a government that was founded by genocidal Christians and slave masters? The inequality of women and minorities, that can be see everywhere in America, comes from Christian based beliefs - they all come from the Bible.

 

Rules are rules I guess, but attempting to pigeonhole discussions to fit a category is a form of control and censorship. It is division. Divide and conquer. Control what a man knows and what he believes, and you control what he does.

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19 minutes ago, Griffin said:

 

 

Rules are rules I guess, but attempting to pigeonhole discussions to fit a category is a form of control and censorship. It is division. Divide and conquer. Control what a man knows and what he believes, and you control what he does.

Well, you do have a point, but in all due honesty, in a conversation, we cannot talk ABOUT everything. Ok, everything is connected. In an university, no one denies that chemistry, physics, and medicine, and even art are connected, but they are separate subjects. A conversation HAS to be limited into a framework so it can be followed and have some meaning. So, in that context, it is quite easy to separate discussion about government and discussion about religion. Although yes, they do influence each other.

        And about that bit, I do not think the source of inequality is religion. Strip away any religious thought, for now. Let us take the so called gender inequality. Let us look at biology. Men are by far stronger and more resilient than women. Proof, men have done all the hard jobs and still do, like warfare, plumbing, construction, etc. Why? They can do it faster and better, usually, because their bodies are built like that. And from the start, men have a power advantage over women. You are talking about gender equality. That is an idea, a cultural one. Why do you consider that idea moral and true, but the biblical idea immoral and brainwashing? It is an idea. And the biblical one has grounding in biology and before modern technology, it was extremely clear to everyone. Why would men consider women equal, from a biological standpoint, when it is extremely evident that THEY ARE NOT equal? I am not equal in physical strength with an MMA fighter, I do not consider this a cultural construction of inequality. Inequality is in nature, everywhere and in every species. I am not arguing for discrimination against women, not at all, but it is not JUST about culture.

          Another thought experiment. About the native americans. In South America, they often did human sacrifices in temples. The mayans. In North America, they had wars with each other. The europeans came, AND they had better firepower, and better armor, plus better statecraft,so again a power imbalance. Do you think that if the mayans or the native americans from the North had those, they would have been extremely peaceful? That is just pure idealization. 

         This idea, that without religion it would be pure paradise is just pure fantasy. The Soviet Union proved that. 

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12 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

So, in that context, it is quite easy to separate discussion about government and discussion about religion. Although yes, they do influence each other.

 

Not really. You were educated in a socialist/communist school system run by a Christian-based government where you were indoctrinated by attending 13 years of Jesuit/Masonic based education and donned a Masonic mortar-board hat (square) and black robe to symbolize how "in-the-dark" you still were. 13 - Jesus and the 12 apostles. The 13 colonies. A judge and 12 jurors. God and the 12 tribes of Israel, and on and on the proof goes. They swapped religion with government but the hierarchy of the church can be found in the hierarchy of the government - there is no difference. Only the labels and details changed. The way they presented it changed. Nothing changed in the base mind-fuck.

 

21 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

 And about that bit, I do not think the source of inequality is religion. Strip away any religious thought, for now. Let us take the so called gender inequality. Let us look at biology. Men are by far stronger and more resilient than women. Proof, men have done all the hard jobs and still do, like warfare, plumbing, construction, etc. Why? They can do it faster and better, usually, because their bodies are built like that. And from the start, men have a power advantage over women. You are talking about gender equality. That is an idea, a cultural one. Why do you consider that idea moral and true, but the biblical idea immoral and brainwashing? It is an idea. And the biblical one has grounding in biology and before modern technology, it was extremely clear to everyone. Why would men consider women equal, from a biological standpoint, when it is extremely evident that THEY ARE NOT equal? I am not equal in physical strength with an MMA fighter, I do not consider this a cultural construction of inequality. Inequality is in nature, everywhere and in every species. I am not arguing for discrimination against women, not at all, but it is not JUST about culture.

 

Yes, inequality of women is Biblical and religious in origin. Read the book from cover-to-cover. Your answer here shows just how effective the swap 'religion' to 'government' works. The government runs the schools and your answers about biology reaffirms the Bible, but biology doesn't answer why the biblical god cursed women and put men in charge of them. In other words, the bible enslaves women to men and no where does it bring up the biological inferiority of women. Women have been traditionally beaten down. There are women body-builders that could kick our asses so absolute gender profiling doesn't hold up.

 

35 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

Another thought experiment. About the native americans. In South America, they often did human sacrifices in temples. The mayans. In North America, they had wars with each other. The europeans came, AND they had better firepower, and better armor, plus better statecraft,so again a power imbalance. Do you think that if the mayans or the native americans from the North had those, they would have been extremely peaceful? That is just pure idealization. 

 

This idea, that without religion it would be pure paradise is just pure fantasy. The Soviet Union proved that. 

 

Do some historical research. Don't just retweet the establishment lies. It was a 'religion' forced onto the natives in the Americas that caused them (forced them) to conduct human sacrifices. They didn't do it willing . All that comes from the very same place, the very same people. There is absolutely no difference between what the Egyptians were doing and what was forced onto people in the Americas. Do the research. There are numerous older books online now. The older the book, the less it'll have been tainted by the efforts of the Vatican's intelligence community - which is the same as the intelligence community in America. A big part of their job is to change names and dates and to obscure truth.

 

I'm going to give just one example here of how they do it so you'll know at least one thing to look for if you choose to research. A document will be created, usually a legal document. It will be used to achieve "the agenda" at the time it was written. Then, decades or centuries later, the document will prove to be false or forged and dismissed because it really was forged or contained false information at the time it was written. Once the document and the information is dismissed by historians, what it achieved will be obscured. Then any time the document is referenced by people as historic, mainstream academia will attack it as false, even though it achieved the goals it was written for. In other words, it doesn't matter if the document and or the information it contains was forged and false. It worked anyway.

 

So, anything that is "well established" today needs to be well researched, and any historical information that today's mainstream academia attacks warrants extra scrutiny. The argument you present regarding the superior fire-powered Europeans leaves out the fact they were Christians, and follows with a retweet of mainstream academia's ideas of how it was back then. Get some books from the Native's perspective and get some books written by real eye witnesses of the Christian invasion of the Americas. You'll quickly change your mind about how it all happened. Christopher Columbus and his team slaughtered eight million natives all by themselves. You won't hear about that on Columbus Day.

 

 

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I am not going to answer any more. It just seems to be going in pure fantasy land from here. So yeah, have it your way, sorry if I did any wrongs to you.

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22 hours ago, Griffin said:

OK, but you must be aware there is no way to separate government from religion because governments are based on religious beliefs. It wasn't Muslims that invaded the Americas, slaughtered the indigenous, and formed a government. It wasn't Jews that invaded the Americas, slaughtered the natives, and formed a government. It was Christians and those beliefs carried over into the  government - also provable beyond any reasonable doubt. The president elect cannot take office without making an oath on the Bible and so there really is no separation of church and state.

 

Yes, but political oriented discussion is limited to "ToT."  This line of inquiry should be directed there. And will be if we have to move it. 

 

22 hours ago, Griffin said:

Rules are rules I guess, but attempting to pigeonhole discussions to fit a category is a form of control and censorship. It is division. Divide and conquer. Control what a man knows and what he believes, and you control what he does.

 

What I'm saying is that starting a religious post about debating the existence of god and then turning the attention to government oriented material could get the thread moved to ToT. Not deleted. Moved to the political section where you can discuss it further. Or just stay on topic and continue the discussion about first having to prove one's theistic claims. 

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On 8/7/2019 at 9:30 PM, Griffin said:

You guys must help lots of people. What a joke.

 

Hmm. To be precise, these forums exist for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind.  You may benefit from consulting the site guidelines: https://www.ex-christian.net/guidelines/

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OK, new discussion at:

 

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