Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Wertbag

What could convince you?

Recommended Posts

I heard a line from Matt Dillihunty recently where he said "I have no idea what could ever convince me" when asked what it would take for him to return to Christianity. If he ever saw an angel, witnessed a miracle or heard the voice of god then the reasonable answers are hallucinations, drugs, lucid dreams, real world trickery or mental illness. You would have to remove all of the more likely answers before a supernatural cause became feasible. Having seen magic tricks on stage and optical illusions that can blow your mind, it seems always more reasonable to think there is a real world answer. 

Once you become sceptical it must be very hard to ever go back. 

Is there anyway you could be convinced? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there is a difference between convincing me that God is real compared to God of the bible is real.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure the rest of that quote is something like ".....but god, if he exists, knows what that would be" which is kind of where I am with it. I don't personally believe anything would ever bring back to christianity, short of some sort of personal experience. But even then, I don't know that christian dogma is the same as a spiritual experience. 

 

I'm solidly agnostic, in general, because I think we should humble enough to just say we don't know. It's one thing to wonder about the universe and all the things that could be out there, but to claim existential truths as a little primate is amusing to me.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/6/2019 at 10:53 PM, Wertbag said:

Is there anyway you could be convinced? 

There is nothing that could cause me to believe in or follow a Christian god. Even if the dude came to me in scientifically provable form, he is such a sonofabitch that I want nothing to do with it. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A certain poster on ex-C once wrote very wise words which I wll repeat.

 

I will become a Christian again if I hear the literal, audible voice of Jesus of Nazareth speak to me from the heavens, invite me to touch his hands and side, and give me explicit instructions on what I ought and ought not to believe. Nothing short will suffice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me see and hear God or Jesus. Just once.  But I would not rejoice at the revelation. Of course, I am talking about the God of the Bible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/16/2019 at 10:37 AM, Bhim said:

A certain poster on ex-C once wrote very wise words which I wll repeat.

 

I will become a Christian again if I hear the literal, audible voice of Jesus of Nazareth speak to me from the heavens, invite me to touch his hands and side, and give me explicit instructions on what I ought and ought not to believe. Nothing short will suffice.

 

How could one rule out a psychotic episode as the cause of this? 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, LostinParis said:

 

How could one rule out a psychotic episode as the cause of this? 

 

That's why I enforce the criterion of an audible voice. It should be detectable by others and by recording devices. A "still small voice" in my head would not be sufficient to induce belief in Jesus.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Bhim said:

 

That's why I enforce the criterion of an audible voice. It should be detectable by others and by recording devices. A "still small voice" in my head would not be sufficient to induce belief in Jesus.

I agree to a certain extent.  But audio is easy to fake.  I need something with more reproducibility.  Something that random people from all ethnicities, social statuses, religious beliefs, and walks of life can all confirm with similar hard data results. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/7/2019 at 1:53 AM, Wertbag said:

I heard a line from Matt Dillihunty recently where he said "I have no idea what could ever convince me"

 

On 8/8/2019 at 10:13 PM, ag_NO_stic said:

I'm pretty sure the rest of that quote is something like ".....but god, if he exists, knows what that would be" which is kind of where I am with it.

 

Same here. If there is an all-knowing god, then he/she/it would know how to convince me. If that god is all-powerful, then he/she/it would have the ability to follow through with the convincing. The ball is in god's court and mine is wide open, but he/she/it has not served yet.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I agree to a certain extent.  But audio is easy to fake.  I need something with more reproducibility.  Something that random people from all ethnicities, social statuses, religious beliefs, and walks of life can all confirm with similar hard data results. 

 

Good point. I'm willing to give a hypothetical God the same benefit of the doubt I give to humans with whom I interact. I.e. if I met you on the street and we struck up a conversation, I would assume you exist even though it's possible you are a figment of my imagination. If Jesus can present himself to me in a form consistent with what we expect, I'm willing to consider the possibility that he exists. Of course what you said about reproducibility is a good point that I glossed over. We should not believe in any God based on a one-time interaction. There would have to be sustained communication between Jesus and the prospective believer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it would have to be a widely shared experience. Any individual meeting with a supernatural being could be written off as drugs, hallucinations or mental illness. It would have to have that unbias third party confirming what you have witnessed was the same for everyone. Turn up and do miracles at a concert, UN meeting, the Olympic opening ceremony or some such. 

One twist is even if you confirmed it was a supernatural being, how would you know it was god and not the devil trying to trick you? 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would think that if the Bible god really existed we would see unified doctrines and holy text that doesn't conflict with history, science and observable reality. No one would need convincing any more than they would need to be convinced the moon revolves around our planet. We can easily determine that as fact.

 

I can think of nothing that would move me to think that an all powerful, all good, all knowing creator would send people to Hell and drown everything on the planet saving only one family and mating pairs of every insect, marsupial, bird, mammal and bacterium on one little boat that also had to include live food for all those breeding pairs. And all that poop! But you know all the asinine stuff in that convoluted tale of talking snakes and unicorns.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Wertbag said:

I think it would have to be a widely shared experience. Any individual meeting with a supernatural being could be written off as drugs, hallucinations or mental illness. It would have to have that unbias third party confirming what you have witnessed was the same for everyone. Turn up and do miracles at a concert, UN meeting, the Olympic opening ceremony or some such. 

One twist is even if you confirmed it was a supernatural being, how would you know it was god and not the devil trying to trick you? 

 

If it picked up James Randi and squeezed the shit out of him, I might believe then. :)

 

 Doesn't mean I'd worship it, however. I've been watching Hitchens today and I am of the sentiment he has where I am just not interested in being a slave to Jesus. 

 

So would God have to provide extraordinary (whatever that means) evidence for his existence...or simply sufficient evidence? Like relocating our planet (and all of us) to the other side of the universe for a short demonstration?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If a Christian came with me to my father's grave (he passed away 4 years ago.  I was with him for his final breath, he was cremated, and his ashes buried), prayed for him to be raised in Jesus' name - and my dad immediately rose, presented himself alive, and remained alive, I would believe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Insightful said:

my dad immediately rose, presented himself alive, and remained alive, I would believe.

That is a perfect proof, it cannot be faked, can't be a hallucination and would be a trivial thing for god to do. The problem would be repeating the miracle a billion times so that everyone had a friend or family member raised. Then you would get people saying "If its super easy, barely an inconvenience, to raise one family member why not more?" 

You'd probably have to have a limited time visitation. Long enough to convince people but not to long or you would destroy society. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If god can do anything, he could suddenly break into every television in the world (and if it was verified) and he Told us who he was, and what his will is for us, then I might believe.

BUT!

 

On 8/25/2019 at 3:05 PM, Wertbag said:

One twist is even if you confirmed it was a supernatural being, how would you know it was god and not the devil trying to trick you? 

 

Good point! 😅

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/7/2019 at 12:02 PM, midniterider said:

I think there is a difference between convincing me that God is real compared to God of the bible is real.

Don't know how to press the like button but I agree with you. After all, the Bible is what they used to beat me up!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Jagdish      

 

Welcome to Ex-C!  You'll get the ability to "like" comments once you've made some more comments yourself.  IIRC it's around 25ish. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, buffettphan said:

@Jagdish      

 

Welcome to Ex-C!  You'll get the ability to "like" comments once you've made some more comments yourself.  IIRC it's around 25ish. 

Thank you very much!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.