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There is no universal human religion

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3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Provide evidence that Twain knows better now.

Provide evidence that twain actually said that quote.

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10 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

That's a touching story.  Ever thought about adapting it for the silver screen?  It'd get you laid, I'd wager.

Dude, your pool of retorts is really shallow.

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10 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No.  He just understands how data and evidence works.  Don't confuse understanding science with faith.  That's a category error.

Then do it. Prove to me a dog walked through his backyard at some time in the past.

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7 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

 

Parsing the passage "faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen" indicates that faith itself is two things.  First, it is "the substance of things hoped for", i.e., wishful thinking.  Second, that wishful thinking is the "evidence of things not seen".

 

Speaking of "wishful thinking" that is what's at the core of pagan magick. I strongly urge you NOT to engage in such practices as it's an abomination in the eyes of God.

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23 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

Were you a Christian? BTW - You need to understand that I'm a devoted unwaivering believer.

 

Nothing like a True Christian (TM)

 

So OC - is there anything that could ever convince you that your unwavering belief is in fact correct?

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4 hours ago, florduh said:

Regarding that lovely dog story, dogs are known to exist. They frequently walk through yards. It is not an extraordinary claim to have seen a dog in the yard. The proposed penalty for not believing that he saw the dog is not an eternity in Hell. There is no comparison here. Try harder.

Your subjective notion of what it means to be extraordinary has nothing to do with the principle of what a proof is. logicalfallacy was the one who brought up the notion of dog action proofs.

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3 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

Speaking of "wishful thinking" that is what's at the core of pagan magick. I strongly urge you NOT to engage in such practices as it's an abomination in the eyes of God.

 

Going on about pagan magic in this thread is both a red herring and the question above commits the fallacy of a loaded question. I'm not sure of the numbers, but some of our 'mystical' folk here will tell you that there are a great number of us who reject the idea of magic.

 

Your question presupposes that someone does engage in magic. Whereas, for many of us, we view Christian faith healing, voodoo magic, and telepathy all in the same boat. Unsubstantiated nonsense. (Apologies for the harshness to my friends here who do think there is something to these things.)

 

 

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8 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Nothing like a True Christian (TM)

 

So OC - is there anything that could ever convince you that your unwavering belief is in fact correct?

No. See Rom 8:38-39

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21 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

Then do it. Prove to me a dog walked through his backyard at some time in the past.

 

I already did. It uses many of the same processes as proving someone committed a murder. It uses logic and reasoning, looking at the evidence, and comparing it with what we know.

 

We know dogs exist, that they poop, they leave fur, and they dig. These are all well observed facts about dogs. These we all found in the backyard. We can tell by the state of the poo approximately how far back in the past the dog was there.

 

Now do the same for God.

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4 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:
12 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Nothing like a True Christian (TM)

 

So OC - is there anything that could ever convince you that your unwavering belief is in fact correct?

No. See Rom 8:38-39

 

So isn't discussion with you largely pointless?

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My unsubstantiated and extraordinary belief is better than yours. I think the position is clear and no more need be said.

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4 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Going on about pagan magic in this thread is both a red herring and the question above commits the fallacy of a loaded question. I'm not sure of the numbers, but some of our 'mystical' folk here will tell you that there are a great number of us who reject the idea of magic. Your question presupposes that someone does engage in magic.

 

What question are you talking about?

 

Quote

Whereas, for many of us, we view Christian faith healing, voodoo magic, and telepathy all in the same boat. Unsubstantiated nonsense. (Apologies for the harshness to my friends here who do think there is something to these things.)

Yes, I know.

 

Here is a question for you though, why have you not addressed any of my questions about your dog scenario? How would you prove to me a dog walked through your yard at some point in the past such that all physical effects have dissipated?

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14 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

I already did. It uses many of the same processes as proving someone committed a murder. It uses logic and reasoning, looking at the evidence, and comparing it with what we know.

 

We know dogs exist, that they poop, they leave fur, and they dig. These are all well observed facts about dogs. These we all found in the backyard. We can tell by the state of the poo approximately how far back in the past the dog was there.

 

Now do the same for God.

The dog did not have to poop while traversing your yard, and they did not feel the urge to dig. A quick enough traversal does not guarantee fur remains and even if it did fur decomposes leaving no trace. So in your  incredibly limited and false notion of reality the dog does not exist. You seem  afraid of facing the obvious and blaring limitations of the empirical method.

 

This is the lesson. The empirical method is not, and can't be, the sole source of truth discovery. It is powerful and valuable, but limited. This is not some new notion. Intellectuals have realized this since the dawn of science.

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12 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

So isn't discussion with you largely pointless?

Are you saying that your mind can never be changed?

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10 minutes ago, florduh said:

My unsubstantiated and extraordinary belief is better than yours. I think the position is clear and no more need be said.

O ya, I...I...I...I ... what was your extraordinary belief?  I thought I had the extraordinary belief in your view and yours was the ordinary one.

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19 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

I already did. It uses many of the same processes as proving someone committed a murder.

Which is testimonial AND circumstantial evidence.

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26 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

Speaking of "wishful thinking" that is what's at the core of pagan magick.

...

 

You are projecting.  You project often.  It's rather obvious and quite boring.

 

...

I strongly urge you NOT to engage in such practices as it's an abomination in the eyes of God.

 

I do not believe you.  Your "God" is simply a projection of your own character and beliefs and nothing more. 

You spew lazy mere assertions, self-aggrandizing tribalism and incessant hate, all with a sanctimonious and narcissistic flair.  The fact that you believe you are special is comical as well as pathetic. 

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1 minute ago, OrdinaryClay said:

O ya, I...I...I...I ... what was your extraordinary belief?  I thought I had the extraordinary belief in your view and yours was the ordinary one.

It's a comment on your position in this mud bath. Don't act dumb.

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49 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

Then do it. Prove to me a dog walked through his backyard at some time in the past.

No.  I didn't make the claim that a dog walked through the guy's yard; therefore the burden of proof does not fall on me.  I know you don't understand how that works; but, fortunately, I do.

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58 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

Provide evidence that twain actually said that quote.

Support your claim first before requesting anyone else does.

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55 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

Dude, your pool of retorts is really shallow.

It's deeper than the gene pool you were spawned in.

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11 hours ago, OrdinaryClay said:

It is true the evidence "meter" varies with people and furthermore each person sets their meter per subject. People sometimes  want to believe that which agrees with their life choices.

 

Not so.  I have no conscious control over my standard for evidence -- things either make sense, or they don't.

 

And wanting to believe doesn't necessarily mean that someone does believe.

 

You're going to have to provide an example of "want to believe that which agrees with their life choices," because that makes no sense to me.

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38 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

Your subjective notion of what it means to be extraordinary has nothing to do with the principle of what a proof is. logicalfallacy was the one who brought up the notion of dog action proofs.

You're confusing proof with evidence.  It's an amateur mistake.  LF provided suggestions of certain types of evidence that would support the claim.  Proof only matters in maths and distilling. 

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29 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

How would you prove to me a dog walked through your yard at some point in the past such that all physical effects have dissipated?

I might start by insisting that the goal posts remain in the same spot throughout the demonstration.  Otherwise, a disingenuous clown like you will just keep shifting them. 

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59 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Going on about pagan magic in this thread is both a red herring and the question above commits the fallacy of a loaded question. I'm not sure of the numbers, but some of our 'mystical' folk here will tell you that there are a great number of us who reject the idea of magic.

 

Your question presupposes that someone does engage in magic. Whereas, for many of us, we view Christian faith healing, voodoo magic, and telepathy all in the same boat. Unsubstantiated nonsense. (Apologies for the harshness to my friends here who do think there is something to these things.)

 

 

 

No sweat , LF. I'm about 95% on the rational scale. lol. 

Definition of magic

 (Entry 1 of 3)

1a: the use of means (such as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces
b: magic rites or incantations
2a: an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source
b: something that seems to cast a spell : 
3: the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand
 
#2b shows that Christian prayer is a magical act. 2a is the assumed magical power from Jesus (if you're a Christian). Church is nothing but a group  magic ritual or ceremony. 
 

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