OrdinaryClay Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 On 9/10/2019 at 12:30 PM, Weezer said: That is a sarcastic misquote. If he actually existed, I don't think he ever saw himself as God. His followers saw Him as God and worshiped Him as God. He never corrected them as the created beings would when they worshiped Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 On 9/10/2019 at 4:16 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said: 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10 It's pretty clear that jesus saw himself as god. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10&version=KJV&interface=amp Indeed. He did most certainly self identify as God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 On 9/10/2019 at 1:53 PM, TEG said: Peter’s sermons in the book of Acts: Jesus was elevated to the right hand of god after his resurrection. The gospel of Mark: Jesus became the son of god at his baptism. The gospels of Matthew and Luke: Jesus was the son of god at his birth. The gospel of John, and some of the epistles: Jesus was pre-existent, creator, god, etc. Christians call it “progressive revelation.” In any other context it is called “making it up as you go along.” Your's is an absurd line of reasoning. All human knowledge is gained progressively. Your state of knowledge at this moment is a progressive result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 On 9/10/2019 at 5:21 PM, LogicalFallacy said: TEG is correct. Scholars will point out the marked difference between the later gospel of John and the earlier synoptic gospels. To my memory Jesus doesn't directly refer to himself as being one with the father in Matthew, Mark or Luke. It's a later evolution of Jesus becoming God. https://ehrmanblog.org/did-jesus-call-himself-god/ The Old Testament prophecies identify Christ as God (Isa 7:14), More importantly His followers believed he was God. They were willing to die because they believed he was God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 On 9/10/2019 at 9:39 PM, TEG said: This is one of those protective mechanisms of christianity. “Interpret scripture with scripture.” Since the bible is god’s word, it is all one piece, and if two sources seem to conflict, they have to be “harmonized.” We can’t acknowledge the fact that three of the four gospel writers failed to mention the earth-shattering fact that Jesus was god incarnate. There are many external lines of evidence for the Bible. I'm stunned that you are so un-informed that you don't at least give acknowledgment to the existence of these sources even if you don't believe them, for example Josephus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted September 15, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted September 15, 2019 1 hour ago, OrdinaryClay said: They all have spiritual foundations. Your demonstration failed. You missed the point, which is that the all offer different "spiritual" answers, thus are not "universal". A lack of critical thinking skills on your part does not constitute a failure on mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said: You missed the point, which is that the all offer different "spiritual" answers, thus are not "universal". A lack of critical thinking skills on your part does not constitute a failure on mine. No you missed the point. A spiritual culture is one which has spiritual beliefs at it's foundation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted September 15, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted September 15, 2019 1 minute ago, OrdinaryClay said: No you missed the point. A spiritual culture is one which has spiritual beliefs at it's foundation. Neither of us made that point. Your claim was that spiritual culture is universal. That claim is false. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 3 hours ago, OrdinaryClay said: We have free will. If you are making a positive claim that we have no free will then please provide support for such a claim. I agree we have free will. Biblegod created us that way. Then biblegod pitches a fit when we use it. Absurd. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 2 hours ago, OrdinaryClay said: There are many external lines of evidence for the Bible. I'm stunned that you are so un-informed that you don't at least give acknowledgment to the existence of these sources even if you don't believe them, for example Josephus. The Koran and book of Mormon also speak of Jesus. He must be real then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted September 15, 2019 Moderator Share Posted September 15, 2019 2 hours ago, OrdinaryClay said: There are many external lines of evidence for the Bible. I'm stunned that you are so un-informed that you don't at least give acknowledgment to the existence of these sources even if you don't believe them, for example Josephus. I think what you mean is that there are many lines of evidence for events as reported in the Bible? I would venture to say that none here actually doubt the existence of the bible. I have evidence for the bible - there's one sitting on my desk! On note of the oft quoted claim that Josephus proves Jesus: (To illustrate the problem with using Josephus as evidence for Jesus) "Many scholars feel however that the mention of james the lords brother the material about john the baptist and any direct references to jesus are deliberate interpolations" 140 https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3183&context=byusq However even allowing that all evidence points to an historical Jesus, how do you go about proving he is in fact divine, the son of God and rose from the dead? If you think eye witness testimony is good enough then I'd like to introduce you to some folks who'd like to share their experience of being abducted by aliens. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted September 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted September 16, 2019 On 9/15/2019 at 2:57 PM, OrdinaryClay said: Really? Now you've piqued my interest. Please, please explain this "infinite, eternal, transcendent and immanent" coherency you think eastern mysticism demonstrates. God = Everything Because whatever is claimed to be "infinite, eternal, transcendent and immanent" necessarily amounts to all of existence. Christians, however, make the same claim and then back peddle and pussy foot around the necessary conclusion that god must the whole shebang, existence itself, the totality (immanent and transcendent at the same time...). Christians are saying, 'god is but isn't the whole.' Eastern mysticism suggests, 'god is the whole.' The former represents a conflicted, contradicting religious mind set which amounts to an immature type of spiritual outlook in the end. A bottom rung type of spirituality if you will. I can go on about this for hours..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted September 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted September 16, 2019 5 hours ago, OrdinaryClay said: The Old Testament prophecies identify Christ as God (Isa 7:14), More importantly His followers believed he was God. They were willing to die because they believed he was God. Can you point out where in the OT that a verse says with the specifics to the effect that "A messiah shall come, his name will be Jesus, he will be God"? I know that Isa 7:14 doesn't say that. In fact Isa 7:14 says: "Therefore the Lord himself will give you[a] a sign: The virgin[b] will conceive and give birth to a son, and[c] will call him Immanuel" Give who a sign? Not 'you' generally - you is referring to the King in the preceding verses. The prophesises in the OT only work if you are willing to shoehorn them to fit the narrative. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted September 17, 2019 Moderator Share Posted September 17, 2019 23 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said: Can you point out where in the OT that a verse says with the specifics to the effect that "A messiah shall come, his name will be Jesus, he will be God"? I know that Isa 7:14 doesn't say that. In fact Isa 7:14 says: "Therefore the Lord himself will give you[a] a sign: The virgin[b] will conceive and give birth to a son, and[c] will call him Immanuel" Give who a sign? Not 'you' generally - you is referring to the King in the preceding verses. The prophesises in the OT only work if you are willing to shoehorn them to fit the narrative. The claim that Isaiah 7:14 is talking about the gospel jesus is one of the most untenable claims that a christian can try to make. And yet, being oblivious to the context problem involved with making the claim, they hail one of their biggest failures as if it were one of their biggest triumphs. And it's really embarrassing when it's laid bare. You can literally see the anonymous writer of Matthew grasping at straws to try and claim a fulfillment of prophecy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justus Posted September 19, 2019 Share Posted September 19, 2019 On 9/15/2019 at 5:52 PM, LogicalFallacy said: However even allowing that all evidence points to an historical Jesus, how do you go about proving he is in fact divine, the son of God and rose from the dead? I By your science of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted September 19, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted September 19, 2019 5 minutes ago, Justus said: By your science of course. Only a wicked generation asks for science and wonders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted September 19, 2019 Moderator Share Posted September 19, 2019 24 minutes ago, Justus said: By your science of course. Oh no, God is transcendent. Science cannot detect God, You need a revelation by the holy spirit brother. If you pray, God will answer you. (I have actually been told this... that's not me joking... even though the whole 'pray and you'll know God' concept is a joke.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justus Posted September 19, 2019 Share Posted September 19, 2019 1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Only a wicked generation asks for science and wonders. I wasn't the one asking for proof, yet is written prove all things. But if I recall correctly the context was that an adulteress generation would seek after a sign but none would be given them except except the sign of Jonas. 1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said: Oh no, God is transcendent. Science cannot detect God, You need a revelation by the holy spirit brother. If you pray, God will answer you. (I have actually been told this... that's not me joking... even though the whole 'pray and you'll know God' concept is a joke.) Transcendent??? I can't say i have encountered anyone who used that particular reference to God but by chance did they tell which personage of their triadic God was transcendent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted September 19, 2019 Moderator Share Posted September 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Justus said: Transcendent??? I can't say i have encountered anyone who used that particular reference to God but by chance did they tell which personage of their triadic God was transcendent? My first recollection of the term was used by my pastor in various usages. E.g "God transcends time and space (Thus making God immaterial)", "God transcends human understanding and reasoning" (Which to me is a fancy way of saying we can't understand God. Note this was often explained prior to preaching about how to understand God's will with no irony) I've also come across it in debates used by both theists to explain the nature of God, and by atheists to argue why we have no reason to accept said nature. I've never heard anyone refer to any particular personage. I take it you refer to the father, son and holy ghost? I can only say that my church was not trinitarian. They do not believe the doctrine of 3 separate persons or God's, but that God is one, but reveals himself in 3 offices. Much like a human, say Joe Blogg, might be a father, a son, and a husband, but he's not three people, he's just Joe. You can see some of my issues with this theology. God is both transcendent, beyond our understanding, and yet still able to interact with the physical world and contact me. Just science cannot show this because... limitations. And yet some of the claims are definitely within the remit of science to test. Now either God doesn't want to be found during said testing, or he's messing with us intentionally. Either way it appears to us as no god existing. Unless you've had the holy ghost reveal himself of course. Slightly off track of the topic, but hopefully that explains the transcendent bit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 On 9/15/2019 at 4:18 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said: Neither of us made that point. Your claim was that spiritual culture is universal. That claim is false. Your personal confusion is broadening. All cultures seek spiritual answers and therefore demonstrate the universality of spiritual culture. You were confused about a specific answer verses the topic of the answer. The topic being spiritual. the expression of the answer differing across cultures, which should not be surprising. So you personally tripped on the difference between the topic and a specific answer in the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted September 22, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted September 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said: Your personal confusion is broadening. All cultures seek spiritual answers and therefore demonstrate the universality of spiritual culture. You were confused about a specific answer verses the topic of the answer. The topic being spiritual. the expression of the answer differing across cultures, which should not be surprising. So you personally tripped on the difference between the topic and a specific answer in the topic. You are confused about the definition of the word "culture". Let me help you: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 On 9/15/2019 at 6:21 PM, midniterider said: I agree we have free will. Biblegod created us that way. Then biblegod pitches a fit when we use it. Absurd. God does judge. God, The Creator, has perfect judgment. He is perfectly Holy. He existed before anything made. He is the Alpha and the Omega. What is absurd is the idea that the created would question The Creator. That is absurd. We are dirt. It's like the clay asking why the potter made what he did. I trust Him implicitly to have made perfect and just decisions. John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [a]only begotten Son of God." When you perform your card tricks who is it you are trying placate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted September 22, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted September 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said: God does judge. God, The Creator, has perfect judgment. He is perfectly Holy. He existed before anything made. He is the Alpha and the Omega. What is absurd is the idea that the created would question The Creator. That is absurd. We are dirt. It's like the clay asking why the potter made what he did. I trust Him implicitly to have made perfect and just decisions. John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [a]only begotten Son of God." When you perform your card tricks who is it you are trying placate? A series of mere assertions. Please provide evidence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 On 9/15/2019 at 6:27 PM, midniterider said: The Koran and book of Mormon also speak of Jesus. He must be real then! The irrational hatred of all things pointing to Christ, the Son of God, as the Savior of the world does lend credence to The Truth of His position as The Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted September 22, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted September 22, 2019 1 minute ago, OrdinaryClay said: The irrational hatred of all things pointing to Christ, the Son of God, as the Savior of the world does lend credence to The Truth of His position as The Christ. I also hate the Tooth Fairy. What does that say about her? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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