There is no universal human religion

[OrdinaryClay]

On 9/15/2019 at 6:52 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

 

I think what you mean is that there are many lines of evidence for events as reported in the Bible? I would venture to say that none here actually doubt the existence of the bible. I have evidence for the bible - there's one sitting on my desk!

 

On note of the oft quoted claim that Josephus proves Jesus: (To illustrate the problem with using Josephus as evidence for Jesus)

 

"Many scholars feel however that the mention of james the

lords brother the material about john the baptist and any direct

references to jesus are deliberate interpolations" 140

 

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3183&context=byusq

 

However even allowing that all evidence points to an historical Jesus, how do you go about proving he is in fact divine, the son of God and rose from the dead? If you think eye witness testimony is good enough then I'd like to introduce you to some folks who'd like to share their experience of being abducted by aliens.

In the world of anti Christian machinations you can find someone to have  denied everything. Honestly, you really rest your entire belief system on the that fact some dude found some other dudes with degrees who denied something. I mean really. You can google up someone somewhere that denies everything. Read Josephus yourself. It's widely available. Search the Roman authors yourself. A committed predisposition is the only real way a person could deny the historicity of the man Jesus.

 

Now whether He is the messiah this is a much bigger question and ultimately the key question. There are very good rational lines of evidence that can help one believe(see William Lane Criag), but I came to this through FAITH. I embrace pure faith. I thank God for pure faith. I love pure faith. I pray you will acquire pure faith.

 

John 20:29 "Jesus *said to him, 'Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.'"

[OrdinaryClay]

On 9/15/2019 at 9:56 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Can you point out where in the OT that a verse says with the specifics to the effect that "A messiah shall come, his name will be Jesus, he will be God"? I know that Isa 7:14 doesn't say that. In fact Isa 7:14 says:  ^"Therefore the Lord himself will give you^[a] a sign: The virgin^[b] will conceive and give birth to a son, and^[c] will call him Immanuel"

 

Give who a sign? Not 'you' generally - you is referring to the King in the preceding verses.

 

The prophesises in the OT only work if you are willing to shoehorn them to fit the narrative. 

God has always allowed those who want to reject Him enough slack to allow them to do so. This is common knowledge and God says so Himself in Scripture. So what. Do you imagine yourself having discovered some major insight.

 

"And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand." Luke 8:10

 

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

5 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

 I came to this through FAITH. I embrace pure faith. I thank God for pure faith. I love pure faith. I pray you will acquire pure faith.

 

What do you mean by faith? 

 

I've heard a dozen explanations so I want to make sure I understand what you mean by faith.

[OrdinaryClay]

On 9/16/2019 at 9:32 PM, Joshpantera said:

 

The claim that Isaiah 7:14 is talking about the gospel jesus is one of the most untenable claims that a christian can try to make. And yet, being oblivious to the context problem involved with making the claim, they hail one of their biggest failures as if it were one of their biggest triumphs.

 

And it's really embarrassing when it's laid bare. You can literally see the anonymous writer of Matthew grasping at straws to try and claim a fulfillment of prophecy. 

A person to claim they ever understood the Bible and were a Christian and not understand the intentional double symbolism in prophecy speaks very loudly about the truth of their history with Christianity.

 

The 1st century Christians clearly understood this. They are the ones who taught me.

[OrdinaryClay]

On 9/18/2019 at 8:45 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Oh no, God is transcendent. Science cannot detect God, You need a revelation by the holy spirit brother. If you pray, God will answer you. 

 

 

(I have actually been told this... that's not me joking... even though the whole 'pray and you'll know God' concept is a joke.)

I once asked a guy who claimed to be logical and empirical to prove to me that a dog walked through their backyard. Ha, they never could answer, honestly, I'm not joking.

[OrdinaryClay]

On 9/19/2019 at 6:19 AM, LogicalFallacy said:

 

You can see some of my issues with this theology. God is both transcendent, beyond our understanding, and yet still able to interact with the physical world and contact me. Just science cannot show this because... limitations. And yet some of the claims are definitely within the remit of science to test. Now either God doesn't want to be found during said testing, or he's messing with us intentionally. Either way it appears to us as no god existing. Unless you've had the holy ghost reveal himself of course. Slightly off track of the topic, but hopefully that explains the transcendent bit.

You don't understand what a double blind protocol is and why they are used do you?

[OrdinaryClay]

8 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

What do you mean by faith? 

 

I've heard a dozen explanations so I want to make sure I understand what you mean by faith.

The Biblical definition Heb 11:1. The definition atheists love to castigate. The one found in the  dictionary. You pick. No evidence required.

[OrdinaryClay]

35 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I also hate the Tooth Fairy.   What does that say about her?

Who cares what it says about her. What does it say about you.

[midniterider]

25 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

"And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand." Luke 8:10

 

What does this scripture mean? I dont understand. hahahaha. 

 

 

[OrdinaryClay]

19 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

What does this scripture mean? I dont understand. hahahaha. 

 

 

Rom 14:11-12

[midniterider]

58 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

God does judge. God, The Creator, has perfect judgment. He is perfectly Holy. He existed before anything made. He is the Alpha and the Omega. What is absurd is the idea that the created would question The Creator. That is absurd. We are dirt. It's like the clay asking why the potter made what he did. I trust Him implicitly to have made perfect and just decisions.

 

Why is it absurd to question the (alleged) creator? The more you question the creator the more you discover there isn't one. 

 

Does clay have intelligence whereby it could question the potter? No. But people do. Maybe God shouldnt give people intelligence if he doesn't want us to question things. Then again, I'm not debating this point with God. I'm just having a conversation with dirt.  Maybe I should be using a shovel. 

 

 

58 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

When you perform your card tricks who is it you are trying placate?

 

Lords Penn and Teller. 

[midniterider]

Just now, OrdinaryClay said:

Rom 14:11-12

 

I cant understand that one either. The words are all fuzzy and stuff. God must be blocking my understanding or something. 

[midniterider]

You know , OC, I think Luke 8:10 will be my go-to scripture when people come around knocking on my door or wherever...they start hitting me with bible shit and I just say, "I read that but I dont see, I heard it but I can't understand. It's God's will. Bubye now." 

[OrdinaryClay]

10 minutes ago, midniterider said:

You know , OC, I think Luke 8:10 will be my go-to scripture when people come around knocking on my door or wherever...they start hitting me with bible shit and I just say, "I read that but I dont see, I heard it but I can't understand. It's God's will. Bubye now." 

Then they will know you understand Scripture.

[midniterider]

2 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

Then they will know you understand Scripture.

 

Doh! You got me.

[OrdinaryClay]

22 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Why is it absurd to question the (alleged) creator? The more you question the creator the more you discover there isn't one. 

 

Does clay have intelligence whereby it could question the potter? No. But people do. Maybe God shouldnt give people intelligence if he doesn't want us to question things. Then again, I'm not debating this point with God. I'm just having a conversation with dirt.  Maybe I should be using a shovel. 

 

 

 

Lords Penn and Teller. 

Isaiah 1:18 '"Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord,'

 

I always thought Penn and Teller were into Magick.

[OrdinaryClay]

4 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Doh! You got me.

it wasn't me.

[LogicalFallacy]

1 hour ago, OrdinaryClay said:

The Biblical definition Heb 11:1. The definition atheists love to castigate. The one found in the  dictionary. You pick. No evidence required.

 

So is there any position I couldn't take on faith? I could say I have faith unicorns exist. (You can insert any proposition you like in place of unicorn)

[LogicalFallacy]

1 hour ago, OrdinaryClay said:

I once asked a guy who claimed to be logical and empirical to prove to me that a dog walked through their backyard. Ha, they never could answer, honestly, I'm not joking.

Quite clearly that guy didn't make you eat the dog poo in his backyard. Or clean up the fur. Or fill in the holes from digging. You know, all very well known lines of evidence to support the proposition that A dog walked through their back yard. 

 

Can you provide anything close to that for dog spelt backwards?

[midniterider]

Do Christians not believe in dogs now? wtf?

[TruthSeeker0]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

 

Why is it absurd to question the (alleged) creator? The more you question the creator the more you discover there isn't one. 

 

Now now, we can't have that or the whole system falls apart. Hence the definition of faith as I was taught it: "faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen." 

How ironic is that, memorizing that through Sunday school all those years and not once actually considering what qualifies as evidence. But that's what indoctrination, instilling the fear of hell and wrath of god in children from a young age, and isolating them from anyone who says or thinks differently, will do. 

[Astreja]

The problem with that "...the evidence of things not seen" bit is that people have varying standards for evidence.  What a believer calls "evidence" usually evokes a "nope" from me -- it always feels like 1% conjecture and 99% wishful thinking from my standpoint, and it just isn't compelling to me.

[LogicalFallacy]

2 hours ago, Astreja said:

The problem with that "...the evidence of things not seen" bit is that people have varying standards for evidence.  What a believer calls "evidence" usually evokes a "nope" from me -- it always feels like 1% conjecture and 99% wishful thinking from my standpoint, and it just isn't compelling to me.

 

Which is why I asked our Christian friend if there is any position that I couldn't take on faith.

[freshstart]

12 hours ago, OrdinaryClay said:

A person to claim they ever understood the Bible and were a Christian and not understand the intentional double symbolism in prophecy speaks very loudly about the truth of their history with Christianity.

 

The 1st century Christians clearly understood this. They are the ones who taught me.

 

How is it that the first century Christians taught you?  Have you ever looked into how the bible actually came to be written? 

There are open source courses available online via Yale University:

https://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145

https://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-152

 

If you choose to live by a particular faith, and make life decisions based upon that faith, then don't you think it deserves serious scrutiny? 

 

It seems to me you are having trouble processing that any ex-Christian could have been a "real Christian."  For you, it does not compute as possible.   You are searching for answers (other than what you are told by ex-Christians) as to how this could happen and trying to convince us that it was ignorance that led us here - instead of a critical examination of our faith and/or the bible.  You are assuming that thousands of people - many of them Bible scholars, ordained ministers, theologians, and missionaries - misunderstood the Bible. Think about how arrogant that sounds.  It was an open mind and open heart that led us to reject Christianity in the same way you reject Greek mythology.  An ex-Christian is not necessarily anti-Christian by the way.  A lot of my family members and friends are believers.  I don't try to convince them of my beliefs.  Hell, they don't even know I'm atheist!   Why?  Because, in my experience, it is Christians who I have seen hassle atheists about their beliefs (or non-beliefs) - not the other way around.   

[OrdinaryClay]

11 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

So is there any position I couldn't take on faith? I could say I have faith unicorns exist. (You can insert any proposition you like in place of unicorn)

You are making a category error. A unicorn claim is a physical claim not a metaphysical claim. No I don't believe a biological creature such as bigfoot is roaming the woods because this is a scientific claim and there is no empirical evidence for its existence. The claim that Jesus is God is a metaphysical claim.