Ex-Anglican, Ex-Catholic?

[sonickel77]

Greetings

I was raised nominally Anglican, but fell away from the faith in my teens because it seemed implausible.

At 39, I believed I had an interior locution telling me to become Catholic, so I did.

Since then it's been a war between belief and scepticism, and once again, scepticism is winning.

 

The major issues I'm having:

1. If we can't trust the "still small voice" that's supposed to be the Holy Spirit, then why should I trust the locution telling me to become Catholic in the first place? I went through over a year of listening to the inner messages, claiming to come from Jesus, Mary, the saints, etc. But there was never any proof that they were authentic. I spoke to priests and nuns about it, who told me to disregard such inner voices, as coming from demons. Blind faith and obedience is the real proof of faith, we should not desire any proof or experience of the divine.

 

2. I went to a Latin Mass community for much of that time, and found them consistently snooty, distant, and cliquey. I sang in their choir for a few months and no-one said hello to me, they were mostly interested in cliquey in jokes. It seems the young are catered for, and everyone over 35 without kids is a social pariah. It's as if the priest is encouraging a cult to grow up around this community, where people are traditional catholics, with no real contact with the modern world. And lots of babies = winning. I'm 42 and single so I can't contribute to their breeding project. 

 

3. If the Eucharist really contained the body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ, why aren't we becoming better people? I've had some successes at swearing less and stopping masturbating, but beyond that, I'm still the same broken person I always was. Same with snooty congregations. And child molester priests! 

 

4. The bible is full of genocide, wrath and vengeance. Even Jesus was a very divisive character. And the contradictions beggar belief. On some level, their foundational book should make some sense.... shouldn't it?

 

5. I'm not convinced that persecuting gays, ending contraception and abortion is a good idea. Our planet is in crisis and these Catholics don't seem to care about it.

 

6. A bunch of very vocal catholics defending Cardinal George Pell. They can't believe that such a man is really a child molester. There are some irregularities in this case, but I'm not inclined to automatically jump to his defence. 

 

I don't know whether I will once again become an ex-Christian. But I think I'll stop attending mass and bible study, and investigate things on my own, using logic rather than subjective experience.

 

 

[older]

Welcome Sonickel77:

 

Looks like you've found some of the holes in the system. We hope you'll explore this site and read some of the posts from other folks and contribute your thoughts as well. There are a bunch of atheists here, some of whom can get rather strident at times but if you remain spiritual, don't let those folks bother you. If you want to investigate on your own, there are some recommended books elsewhere on this site.  Hope to hear more from you.

[LostinParis]

On 8/23/2019 at 12:10 PM, sonickel77 said:

A bunch of very vocal catholics defending Cardinal George Pell. They can't believe that such a man is really a child molester. There are some irregularities in this case, but I'm not inclined to automatically jump to his defence. 

 

Welcome @sonickel77,

Cardinal George Pell performed my confirmation when I was age 10, back when he was a priest. Many Catholics I know have decided that atheists are trying to eradicate the Catholic church, and that Pell is a victim. I ask them, Were you in the courtroom? Did you hear the evidence? I’m not drawing a conclusion because I wasn’t there.

However here in Australia we have an excellent legal system and Pell had the best lawyers that money could buy. I’m not inclined to jump to his defence.

 

I hope you continue your investigation, logic and reason made my path much clearer.

[sonickel77]

I was confirmed by Archbishop Philip Wilson, also convicted (then exonerated) for covering up child sex abuse. The local Catholics still defend him...

[LostinParis]

18 hours ago, sonickel77 said:

I was confirmed by Archbishop Philip Wilson, also convicted (then exonerated) for covering up child sex abuse. The local Catholics still defend him...

 

The covering up is what disgusted me to the point of deconversion. I was told that humans are fallible and I must not to judge a religion by a few bad apples.

Yeah, religions would be great if there were no people in them...

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Sounds like you've got a good handle on the issues. The faith boils down to the book, and the book is a collection of tribal myths and taboos, many of which are bloody and harsh, and none of which belong in our lives today. We are far better off socially with others who are actually trying to do good, or who at least do the things we enjoy doing so there is something in common. My social group is made of singers and musicians, mostly "jazz" (adult pop from the 1930-60s). 

 

Spiritually we are generally better off on our own path. Spiritually, I find that my sense of self as it relates to nature is where there is overlap with several other people in my circles, but some of them have a clear formulated path and others like myself do not. Religious groups tend towards cult behaviors even when the intentions are good, at least that was my experience a handful of times. 

[older]

3 hours ago, LostinParis said:

I was told that humans are fallible and I must not to judge a religion by a few bad apples.

 

The whole tree, nay, the whole damn orchard is rotten. A little investigation will reveal that this issue goes all the way back to at least the 11th century. Nuns have been abused by priests for hundreds of years. In the current set of scandals, at least 3000 priests have been investigated. In 2018 the New York Times wrote that 1000 kids were abused in Pennsylvania. CBS reported in June that the Church of Pedophilia spent $10.6 million lobbying against laws that would help victims obtain justice. 

 

Here is an interesting database:   http://www.bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbydiocese.html 

 

Finally, in 2018, CNN reported that the Church of Pedophilia has paid out more than $3.8 billion (that is Billion, with a B ) in lawsuits and claims by 8600 survivors in the United States alone since the 1950s. And that's only the cases that are known.

[LostinParis]

The christian eastern orthodox church has largely prevented this pedophilia problem by allowing priests to marry and have families. In fact I think marriage is mandatory. 

Are there any figures for pedophilia among married catholic marionite priests?

[TEG]

For what it’s worth, the celibacy of the priesthood is unbiblical.  It’s lumped in there with “doctrines of demons.”  I guess for a good reason . . . .

 

1 Timothy 3:2
The overseer [bishop] therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, modest, hospitable, good at teaching . . . .

1 Timothy 4:1-3
But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, through the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron, forbidding marriage and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

[♦ ficino ♦]

6 hours ago, LostinParis said:

The christian eastern orthodox church has largely prevented this pedophilia problem by allowing priests to marry and have families. In fact I think marriage is mandatory. 

Are there any figures for pedophilia among married catholic marionite priests?

Quote

In fact I think marriage is mandatory. 

Although most Orthodox priests are married, not all. In the Greek Orthodox church in the US, marriage is not mandatory for priests. I know of one unmarried gay Greek Orthodox priest who has an Armenian boyfriend on the down low. Bishops, however, may not be married.

 

 

[♦ ficino ♦]

On 8/22/2019 at 10:10 PM, sonickel77 said:

Greetings

I was raised nominally Anglican, but fell away from the faith in my teens because it seemed implausible.

At 39, I believed I had an interior locution telling me to become Catholic, so I did.

Since then it's been a war between belief and scepticism, and once again, scepticism is winning.

 

The major issues I'm having:

1. If we can't trust the "still small voice" that's supposed to be the Holy Spirit, then why should I trust the locution telling me to become Catholic in the first place? I went through over a year of listening to the inner messages, claiming to come from Jesus, Mary, the saints, etc. But there was never any proof that they were authentic. I spoke to priests and nuns about it, who told me to disregard such inner voices, as coming from demons. Blind faith and obedience is the real proof of faith, we should not desire any proof or experience of the divine.

 

2. I went to a Latin Mass community for much of that time, and found them consistently snooty, distant, and cliquey. I sang in their choir for a few months and no-one said hello to me, they were mostly interested in cliquey in jokes. It seems the young are catered for, and everyone over 35 without kids is a social pariah. It's as if the priest is encouraging a cult to grow up around this community, where people are traditional catholics, with no real contact with the modern world. And lots of babies = winning. I'm 42 and single so I can't contribute to their breeding project. 

 

3. If the Eucharist really contained the body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ, why aren't we becoming better people? I've had some successes at swearing less and stopping masturbating, but beyond that, I'm still the same broken person I always was. Same with snooty congregations. And child molester priests! 

 

4. The bible is full of genocide, wrath and vengeance. Even Jesus was a very divisive character. And the contradictions beggar belief. On some level, their foundational book should make some sense.... shouldn't it?

 

5. I'm not convinced that persecuting gays, ending contraception and abortion is a good idea. Our planet is in crisis and these Catholics don't seem to care about it.

 

6. A bunch of very vocal catholics defending Cardinal George Pell. They can't believe that such a man is really a child molester. There are some irregularities in this case, but I'm not inclined to automatically jump to his defence. 

 

I don't know whether I will once again become an ex-Christian. But I think I'll stop attending mass and bible study, and investigate things on my own, using logic rather than subjective experience.

 

 

Ex-Catholic convert here, also a refugee from Anglicanism! And like you I had to get out of the RCs. I agree with your points above.

 

On the locutions, "the inner messages claiming to be from..." I'm not sure whether you mean these are a strong mental impression or whether you mean you heard actual voices. Some people do experience auditory hallucinations. We can have hallucinations associated with any of the five senses, sometimes with more than one at once (e.g. a person who appears and speaks to us, as in A Beautiful Mind). Just wondering, if it was the latter, and they've stopped, that's a plus. If they are continuing, it would be a good idea to see a specialist in case something is misfiring in your brain.  

[sonickel77]

On 8/26/2019 at 10:27 PM, ficino said:

Ex-Catholic convert here, also a refugee from Anglicanism! And like you I had to get out of the RCs. I agree with your points above.

 

On the locutions, "the inner messages claiming to be from..." I'm not sure whether you mean these are a strong mental impression or whether you mean you heard actual voices. Some people do experience auditory hallucinations. We can have hallucinations associated with any of the five senses, sometimes with more than one at once (e.g. a person who appears and speaks to us, as in A Beautiful Mind). Just wondering, if it was the latter, and they've stopped, that's a plus. If they are continuing, it would be a good idea to see a specialist in case something is misfiring in your brain.  

they weren't audible voices, but a strong inner impression, that I perceived to be coming from outside of myself somehow.

If I don't pray, I don't get them.

I think they could be just a variation of the usual inner chatter, looking at things from multiple perspectives = lots of conflicting "inner voices".

[♦ ficino ♦]

2 hours ago, sonickel77 said:

they weren't audible voices, but a strong inner impression, that I perceived to be coming from outside of myself somehow.

If I don't pray, I don't get them.

I think they could be just a variation of the usual inner chatter, looking at things from multiple perspectives = lots of conflicting "inner voices".

Got it. Know all too well those impressions.