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Goodbye Jesus

Free will: yes or no?


TEG

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Thanks for the discussion @Myrkhoos. No need to worry about offending me by disagreeing. I appreciate the perspective :) .

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  • 4 weeks later...

When does free will begin ?

 

If i have a urge to go naked in the streets, i do not because i do not think is right an because is not socialy accepted in my country.

 

But it can be tolerated in a jungle type of tribe.

Or if i had a mental illness i would go naked in the streets.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/31/2019 at 10:21 AM, pantheory said:

In science, quantum mechanics asserts that the quantum world has a lot of real randomness within it. This of course could play out as free will at the larger scales of molecular matter and humans.[/quote]

 

No it could not. The main argument against the quantum mind proposition is that quantum states in the brain would decohere before they reached a spatial or temporal scale at which they could be useful for neural processing. This argument was elaborated by the physicist, Max Tegmark. Based on his calculations, Tegmark concluded that quantum systems in the brain decohere quickly and cannot control brain function.

Source: Wikipedia

 

Moreover, even if quantum events did impact the mind, because they're completely random their effect would be utterly random. Any free will would be blabbering free will.

 

 

 

 

On 8/31/2019 at 10:21 AM, pantheory said:

"Free Will, defined: "the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints."

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/free-will

[/quote]

Personally, I favor the old definition, "the ability to have done differently. "

 

 

 

On 8/31/2019 at 10:21 AM, pantheory said:

I think free will is simply a perspective concerning decision making. IMO all should lead their lives, which nearly all do anyway, as if free will existed. Philosophy, after all, does not explain reality, it is simply a perspective of it. And there are countless possible, yet valid perspectives of reality IMO. [/quote]

Living the illusion is pretty much a forgone outcome among determinists.  At least those I know of. We can't help it. :smile:

 

 

 

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Urban Legend,

 

Welcome to this forum.

 

Thanks for the info. Much of what you stated l didn't know concerning present beliefs in Quantum Mechanics concerning free will.  I believe most of what quantum mechanics asserts verbally is BS anyway.

 

QM is a Engineering development, not a science development IMO. An Engineer asks, does it the system work or not? forget theory. A scientist asks: theoretically is it based upon the scientific method or not?

 

The answer to the former question "Does it work?:" The QM system is based upon statistics. It only can predict the likelihood of events in most cases, not how the system really works IMO.  But to that extent it works. Is it based upon science? Some of QM has a scientific basis, but most of it is based upon statistics and other physics, most of which cannot be tested as to causes of events, based upon the scientific method IMO, and if not, it's not science. As Einstein stated with humor, God does not play dice. 

 

The scientific method:

 

"The scientific method is an empirical method of acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century. It involves careful observation, applying rigorous skepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions can distort how one interprets the observation."

 

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk01rymvFjH0qCudJCYWY3A5SZ1I6Ww%3A1594661000676&source=hp&ei=iJgMX_eNJ9HH-gT8jbKoAg&q=the+scientific+method&oq=the+scientific+&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQARgAMgUIABCxAzICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADoECCMQJzoICAAQsQMQgwFQrAlYmiVg4jxoAHAAeACAAZ8BiAGPC5IBBDEyLjOYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab

 

I tend to agree with those including yourself, who believe that free will is only an illusion,  but maybe the most valuable illusion we have.

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On 7/13/2020 at 8:29 PM, pantheory said:

 

 

I tend to agree with those including yourself, who believe that free will is only an illusion,  but maybe the most valuable illusion we have.

I do not understand that. Really. Its value for me is minus. It is damaging.

 

For me, liberating myself from the illusion of free wil brings only peace and happiness and compassion. I think it is actually a bad thing, it brings forth fear, guilt, shame, some perfectionism, blaming other people, etc. But, really, I conscious that such thing is MY OWN experience with it. Maybe some people with, at least temporarily fall into great depression about it if they thought free will is an illusion at the deep level. 

 

Only speculating here, but maybe coming from an Eastern European country helps. The US and the anglosaxon world is kind of built upon the idea of freedom, free choice, doing what you want, the free invidual, the self made man. It is the main myth, yes myth, of the Anglosaxon world. People give up God easier than the belief in free will. :)) Freedom was never quite that big thing in my education. Happiness, finding your place, etc, was far more put forth as a thing to want. 

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On 8/31/2019 at 7:48 AM, Joshpantera said:

The entanglement factor in the delayed reaction experiment is interesting. 

 

This question always seems to hint back to a limited free in a deterministic universe answer. Because so many things are deterministic and free will seems very limited, if it really exists at all. 

 

 

 

I listened to this video and Sam Harris argues that free will is an illusion because (oversimplifying here) we have a whole bunch of neurological and biological events going on that heavily influence and essentially predetermine all decisions we make. His theory assumes that we have no control over these microscopic and cellular events within our brain and body. But perhaps we've been conditioned to believe that we have no control over these events, when in fact we do. We just haven't figured out how. For example, if I am told to raise my right arm, I can do that. And I can choose to do that, but I can't really explain how I did  that. I can't describe how the neurons fired and how signals were sent and how I contracted certain muscles to make it happen. Still, I made it happen.  Or did I? If I'm not in control of the microscopic events in my body, then who is? IMHO, I think its a huge assumption to believe that we have no control,  rather than we have not yet discovered how we control these biological and neurological events. Then again, maybe thats just the wine talkin'.

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11 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

I do not understand that. Really. Its value for me is minus. It is damaging.

 

For me, liberating myself from the illusion of free wil brings only peace and happiness and compassion. I think it is actually a bad thing, it brings forth fear, guilt, shame, some perfectionism, blaming other people, etc. But, really, I conscious that such thing is MY OWN experience with it. Maybe some people with, at least temporarily fall into great depression about it if they thought free will is an illusion at the deep level. 

 

Only speculating here, but maybe coming from an Eastern European country helps. The US and the anglosaxon world is kind of built upon the idea of freedom, free choice, doing what you want, the free individual, the self made man. It is the main myth, yes myth, of the Anglosaxon world. People give up God easier than the belief in free will. :)) Freedom was never quite that big thing in my education. Happiness, finding your place, etc, was far more put forth as a thing to want. 

 

Yes, I understand. Coming from an eastern European background would have been an upbringing under communism and much atheism. I traveled to Turkey and 3-4 countries in eastern Europe maybe 6-7 years ago and very much enjoyed my travels there. Many people there were very pleasant and seemed to be still getting used to capitalism and unrestricted freedoms.

 

Although I believe free will is an illusion, I still lead my life as if I were in control of my decisions. I strive for control over everything in my sphere of influence and try my hardest to apply what I know,  learn new things, and make the best decisions possible. I am a strong capitalist and confirmed atheist :)

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15 hours ago, freshstart said:

His theory assumes that we have no control over these microscopic and cellular events within our brain and body. But perhaps we've been conditioned to believe that we have no control over these events, when in fact we do. We just haven't figured out how. For example, if I am told to raise my right arm, I can do that. And I can choose to do that, but I can't really explain how I did  that. I can't describe how the neurons fired and how signals were sent and how I contracted certain muscles to make it happen. Still, I made it happen.  Or did I? If I'm not in control of the microscopic events in my body, then who is? IMHO, I think its a huge assumption to believe that we have no control,  rather than we have not yet discovered how we control these biological and neurological events. Then again, maybe thats just the wine talkin'.

 

This certainly needs to be taken into consideration. 

 

If by, "I," you are referring to consciousness, then we can break it down further into whether it's conscious or sub conscious mind. Sub conscious mind has us involuntary breathing, has our hearts beating, and basically runs all of these biological functions like a clock, mechanically. Then conscious mind can step in and take the controls, vary breathing, hell, even vary heart rate. All of these mechanical and conscious activities going on. 

 

But even then, are we currently inside of a repeating process?

 

Are all of these conscious and sub conscious biological activities happening now, because they've happened before, and will continuing happening again and again going forward?

 

That goes out beyond Harris's discussion, but it's always a looming consideration. My wife and I talk about stuff like this. What if we always get together, over and over again, as reality unfolds and repeats itself? We have no way of knowing if we're in a reality that works like this or not. Science can conceive of the possibility, so it's at least conceivable as a possibility:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1892545/

 

 

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On 7/15/2020 at 4:26 AM, freshstart said:

I listened to this video and Sam Harris argues that free will is an illusion because (oversimplifying here) we have a whole bunch of neurological and biological events going on that heavily influence and essentially predetermine all decisions we make. His theory assumes that we have no control over these microscopic and cellular events within our brain and body. But perhaps we've been conditioned to believe that we have no control over these events, when in fact we do. We just haven't figured out how. For example, if I am told to raise my right arm, I can do that. And I can choose to do that, but I can't really explain how I did  that. I can't describe how the neurons fired and how signals were sent and how I contracted certain muscles to make it happen. Still, I made it happen.  Or did I? If I'm not in control of the microscopic events in my body, then who is? IMHO, I think its a huge assumption to believe that we have no control,  rather than we have not yet discovered how we control these biological and neurological events. Then again, maybe thats just the wine talkin'.

That is not the issue,  I think. Not knowing exactly how something happens.  The problem is determinism. I can see that if I touch a hot teacup I feel heat. There is a causal determination. So the problem is NOT whether you did it or not, whatever YOU may be, but if you could have done otherwise.  I cannot touch a hot teacup and NOT feel heat in my fingers. I think evidence points to determinism of some sort, theistic or not.

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Great OP,

 

Most of what I have read and watched suggests that free will is an illusion,I am included to believe that we do not have free will at all.....but then I would say that wouldn't I......

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  • 1 month later...

As I sought guidance (and yes, help) from several ministers through time as I "lost my religion", that attitude which seems intended as apologies for their supreme being was offered to me several times.

"But you have free will!" was all but shouted at me by a couple of ministers.

 

My attitude became:  You tell me that there is a god who knows me, knows my particular weaknesses and vulnerabilities. The bible warns repeatedly of the evil done by humans.

My life experience bears witness to that..

Release a mouse into a cage with two snakes and tell him he has "free will".

 

 

 

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