Christian Persecution

[OrdinaryClay]

On 9/8/2019 at 4:24 PM, disillusioned said:

 

Yes, I see that.

 

The report referred to in the article you posted was written by a bishop and a reverend. Seems like they might have some bias there.

I guess that means no one should believe anything Bertrand Russel states about atheism.

 

I honestly don't think anti Christians think before they post.

[OrdinaryClay]

On 9/8/2019 at 10:37 PM, older said:

 

No, all religions do not proselytize. The most basic research will reveal those that do not. And, in fact, there are some religions that do not admit new members at all. And as far as I can determine, Christianity is the only one that actively sends missionaries out to convert non-Christians.

A minuscule amount of rational thought would reveal that any religion that did not admit new members would cease to exist pronto. All regions admit new members and all proselytize in some form or another. Really, are you so mentally trapped as to be blind to such a simply deduced truth.

[OrdinaryClay]

On 9/9/2019 at 12:01 AM, freshstart said:

Seems to me the refugee population is the most persecuted of all groups and they represent a wide variety of religions, ethnic groups, etc.

https://www.un.org/en/sections/issues-depth/refugees/

Refugees have nothing universally in common except being human.

[OrdinaryClay]

On 9/9/2019 at 12:31 AM, midniterider said:

 

I hate when those Wiccans go door to door peddling their shit. 

wiccans arn't born wiccans. They are converted by other wiccans.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

30 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

Refugees have nothing universally in common except being human.

This is a strange observation coming from the same clown who claims in another thread that spirituality is "universal".

[midniterider]

2 hours ago, OrdinaryClay said:

wiccans arn't born wiccans. They are converted by other wiccans.

 

I heard of paganism and got more interested in it by reading stuff on the net. Then I bought some books on the subject. Nobody converted me. Whether it is growing or not I have no idea. Paganism isn't an organized religion like Christianity. There's only 1 person in my small group. (haha) Now, a coven of witches is 13 people which, coincidentally is the number of the apostles plus Jesus. Fun fact. 

[midniterider]

2 hours ago, OrdinaryClay said:

Refugees have nothing universally in common except being human.

 

Being human...and all being refugees, of course. 

[freshstart]

4 hours ago, OrdinaryClay said:

A minuscule amount of rational thought would reveal that any religion that did not admit new members would cease to exist pronto. All regions admit new members and all proselytize in some form or another. Really, are you so mentally trapped as to be blind to such a simply deduced truth.

 

A miniscule amount of rational thought? Really?

 

Proselytize: to convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

 

Except when someone is attempting to marry into a family with orthodox beliefs, I've never known any Jews to try to convert someone to their beliefs. Defend their beliefs when someone else is trying to convert them?  Yes. But attempt to convert others, especially strangers? No way.

"New members" are sustained in many religions by passing beliefs down through generations. Where are all the Jewish missionaries? Where are the Menonites shouting on the street corners? Where are the Wiccan televangelists?

What's wrong with admitting that Christians are out there trying to save souls way more than any other religion?  Although. . .  it is kind of weird that an all-powerful God needs humans to do his bidding. I wonder why he can't . . .er. . .I mean he won't just to talk to people on his own.

[Astreja]

7 hours ago, OrdinaryClay said:

wiccans arn't born wiccans. They are converted by other wiccans.

 

I've never been Wiccan, but there was a time when I was quite interested in Norse heiðinn beliefs.  No one converted me.  No followers of Thor chatted me up or rang my doorbell or handed me an Edda tract at the mall.

 

It was the stories and the ideas themselves that attracted me, and in fact the only place I've encountered people who might have been followers (because they were wearing Thor's hammer or a valknut or some other Norse symbolism) was at the annual Icelandic Festival in Gimli.  I didn't ask; they didn't tell.

[disillusioned]

11 hours ago, OrdinaryClay said:

I guess that means no one should believe anything Bertrand Russel states about atheism.

 

I honestly don't think anti Christians think before they post.

 

Nice job ignoring the rest of what I wrote. Literally the next sentence was "But leave that aside".

 

You are either being completely disingenuous, or you're just bad at this. 

[OrdinaryClay]

10 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

I heard of paganism and got more interested in it by reading stuff on the net. Then I bought some books on the subject. Nobody converted me. Whether it is growing or not I have no idea. Paganism isn't an organized religion like Christianity. There's only 1 person in my small group. (haha) Now, a coven of witches is 13 people which, coincidentally is the number of the apostles plus Jesus. Fun fact. 

The people who wrote what you read converted you.

[OrdinaryClay]

9 hours ago, freshstart said:

"New members" are sustained in many religions by passing beliefs down through generations.

You  don't say!!! you mean they wern't born that way? You mean the ideas of their religion didn't pop into their brain through the aether?

[OrdinaryClay]

9 hours ago, freshstart said:

What's wrong with admitting that Christians are out there trying to save souls way more than any other religion?  Although. . .  it is kind of weird that an all-powerful God needs humans to do his bidding. I wonder why he can't . . .er. . .I mean he won't just to talk to people on his own.

This is absolutely true. I embrace this truth.

 

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has no needs. His interaction with and commandments to humanity are for our benefit. We benefit from acting out through love.

[OrdinaryClay]

6 hours ago, Astreja said:

 

It was the stories and the ideas themselves that attracted me, and in fact the only place I've encountered people who might have been followers (because they were wearing Thor's hammer or a valknut or some other Norse symbolism) was at the annual Icelandic Festival in Gimli.  I didn't ask; they didn't tell.

 

The person who wrote the stories and thoughts that you explored was, in fact, proselytising.

[OrdinaryClay]

2 hours ago, disillusioned said:

 

Nice job ignoring the rest of what I wrote. Literally the next sentence was "But leave that aside".

 

You are either being completely disingenuous, or you're just bad at this. 

Why did you write it if no one is supposed to read it. You lead with it so obviously you thought it had merit in the discussion. The rest  of your post about the fact that other groups are persecuted seemed obvious and not relevant to the OP.

[disillusioned]

9 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

Why did you write it if no one is supposed to read it. You lead with it so obviously you thought it had merit in the discussion. The rest  of your post about the fact that other groups are persecuted seemed obvious and not relevant to the OP.

 

I thought it was worth mentioning, but it wasn't the point of my post. Clearly this escapes you.

[freshstart]

18 minutes ago, OrdinaryClay said:

You  don't say!!! you mean they wern't born that way? You mean the ideas of their religion didn't pop into their brain through the aether?

 

My, my.  Why such an emotional response? 

I guess I'll spell this out: 

Parents passing on their faith to their children are not proselytizing.  They are indoctrinating.  There is a difference. 

Christians do both.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

It's weird that a clown who throws out No True Scotsman as often as ordinaryclay does, would also be whining about christians being persecuted more than any other group.  Hey, Clay, how do you know that all those persecuted christians are even "real" christians to begin with?  I bet 95% of them are really just deceived and confused about theology and are only being "persecuted" because Satan is fucking with them just to get his jollies.  Maybe it's not even persecution; maybe jesus is punishing them for being confused and not believing right.

[midniterider]

46 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

It's weird that a clown who throws out No True Scotsman as often as ordinaryclay does, would also be whining about christians being persecuted more than any other group.  Hey, Clay, how do you know that all those persecuted christians are even "real" christians to begin with?  I bet 95% of them are really just deceived and confused about theology and are only being "persecuted" because Satan is fucking with them just to get his jollies.  Maybe it's not even persecution; maybe jesus is punishing them for being confused and not believing right.

 

if only the persecuted "believed harder" God would surely help them. 

[midniterider]

2 hours ago, OrdinaryClay said:

The people who wrote what you read converted you.

 

You may be right. The more I read the bible the more I felt it was a crock of shit. Eventually I gave up that religion. It is safe to say then that the authors of the bible converted me back to agnosticism. Atheists say all the time that a need to dig deeper into their bible and get closer to God resulted in their conversion to atheism.

[Astreja]

11 hours ago, OrdinaryClay said:

The person who wrote the stories and thoughts that you explored was, in fact, proselytising.

 

Long-dead anonymous Scandinavians leaving books behind for people to read is vastly preferable to someone coming up to my house in person and trying to foist their particular worldview upon me, often with great rudeness and occasionally threats of afterlife harm.

[older]

On 9/21/2019 at 4:39 PM, OrdinaryClay said:

A minuscule amount of rational thought would reveal that any religion that did not admit new members would cease to exist pronto. All regions admit new members and all proselytize in some form or another. Really, are you so mentally trapped as to be blind to such a simply deduced truth.

 

Here ya go:

 

“Buddhists do not engage in the practice of proselytisation”

“Hinduism lacks a proselytism tradition.”

“Sikhism is not a proselytizing religion and proselytism is largely discouraged”

“in the modern era Judaism generally does not proselytize non-Jews …. Generally, Jews expect any convert to Judaism to come through their own accord.“

“Sects of some religions, such as the Druze, Yazidis, and Zoroastrians, do not accept converts at all”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselytism 

[Myrkhoos]

I do not know if you are around here anymore.

This is my opinion.

 

First it depends on what persecution means. The level of harm being done. I am guessing you referr to the more gross forms like murder torture exile , etc. 

 

Well it is hard for me to give an opinion because in general christianity has a very high regard of suffering for Christ/ Church. That early history is full of stories of christians wanting to suffer for Christ. Martyrdom is a supreme virtue. So in a way, it is a good thing for the religion. Jesus and Paul both warned about horrific persecution like death torture public and private. So saying that well it is not good that people are persecuted when the doctrine is about being persecuted, and this life is basically sinful and we should await the general ressurection is quite hard for me to hold. In other words they are searching for it . Actively. I mean the model of the christians is a man who was crucified for his theological beliefs.

 

There have been other issues brought forth but I rest here. 

 

One thing though. If, and I say if,  your starting point is everything God does is good, no mater the explanation or lack there of you are in a position that absolutely nothing could change your mind. And that is a problem because similar claims can be made like everything  TheRedneckprofessor does is good no matter what. That is the problem with unfalsifiable stances. There are a great number of them, that contradict each other and you cannot know which is true. This was one of the first things that make and made me doubt certain core christian beliefs.

 

[Moonobserver]

On 9/7/2019 at 9:38 AM, OrdinaryClay said:

I don't know any Christians that believe this. 

"Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on 
you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written,
"VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. "BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A 
DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. "
(Rom 12:17-21 NASB)

It would be more convincing if Christians, especially of the fundamentalist variety, did a better job of living by what their Bible says. I'm having a hard time coming up with any Christians who decry the persecution of non-Christians as fervently as they do the persecution of their own.

[freshstart]

On 9/22/2019 at 8:25 AM, OrdinaryClay said:

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has no needs.

 

On 9/22/2019 at 8:25 AM, OrdinaryClay said:

We benefit from acting out through love.

 

So if you believe in a God who has no needs and you believe that you benefit from "acting out through love," again I ask, what is your purpose here?  How is it that YOU are acting out through love? You believe you benefit in what way?