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Masihi

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1 hour ago, Masihi said:

What I mean by discrepancies are minor copyist mistakes in the manuscripts which don’t nullify inerrancy, sine the Bible was still wrong by fallible who were obviously prone to mistakes during the writing and copying of the text, I don’t believe there are errors in the essence of Biblical teaching or the essence of its message or theology or in what it conveys. 

Spelling corrections:

 

“Since the Bible was still written by fallible men.”

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3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Now we see the LuthAMF sock puppet coming out to play.

Not sure what that’s supposed to mean.

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51 minutes ago, Masihi said:

Not sure what that’s supposed to mean.

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@Masihi I’ve asked 3 times why you think Christianity is more moral than Islam. You’ve clearly stated that homosexuality is always wrong but can you equally state that slavery, rape, murder, and infanticide are wrong? 

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What I'm hearing is christianity is good because Islam is more evil.

 

Like saying syphilis is wonderful because AIDS is horrible.

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2 hours ago, Masihi said:

Not sure what that’s supposed to mean.

 

That was a reference to a Christian (LuthAMF) who came through recently who also said in regards to our rebuttals that we just didn't understand theology. This seems to be a common thing for Christians to say when we point out problems with theology. "You just don't understand" is a typical response we get.

 

Ironically you all seem to forget you are talking to Ex-Christians who generally have a fairly good understanding of theology, and it's pitfalls.

 

As far as the term "sock puppet" goes, not sure what TRP means there as sock puppet has a rather specific meaning on the internet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet) which in your case IMO is not the case. I'm sure TRP will be happy to clarify that for you.

 

Meanwhile responses like "you just don't understand" is simply going to make us go "here we go again - different face, same baloney" 

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5 hours ago, Masihi said:

What I mean by discrepancies are minor copyist mistakes in the manuscripts which don’t nullify inerrancy, sine the Bible was still wrong by fallible who were obviously prone to mistakes during the writing and copying of the text, I don’t believe there are errors in the essence of Biblical teaching or the essence of its message or theology or in what it conveys. 

The problem here is that this belief doesn't make sense if god is omnipotent.   According to the bible, god confused the languages at the tower of Babel.  If god is fluent enough in each language to understand and answer prayers in each, then it stands to reason that he should also be able to translate his word accurately into each language.  We are back to a god who can't seem to say what he means.  Only, this time it's not because he is mysterious or anything; it's because he's incompetent.  Or rather, trusts his word to incompetent writers.  If god cannot control the accurate translation of his word, then he's not omnipotent.   If god makes mistakes, even just a small one, then he is not omnipotent.  Incidentally, if god can not maje mistakes, then he is also not omnipotent. 

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The Lord works in mysterious ways, but they're not all THAT fucking mysterious. 

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4 hours ago, Masihi said:

Not sure what that’s supposed to mean.

We had a rash of sockpuppets a few years ago and I still get suspicious when one christian disappears and shortly thereafter another christian shows up using similar, if not exact, verbiage. 

 

My bad, bro.

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1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

We had a rash of sockpuppets a few years ago and I still get suspicious when one christian disappears and shortly thereafter another christian shows up using similar, if not exact, verbiage. 

 

My bad, bro.

There are a finite number of apologetic arguments. They all sound the same regardless of who is parroting them.

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23 minutes ago, Christopherhays said:

Did we scare @Masihi away? I thought we were making progress lol

 

Not sure... maybe it was my "different face same baloney" comment?

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1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Not sure... maybe it was my "different face same baloney" comment?

 

Lol you may be on to something. I just saw him in another thread talking about how badly Christians are persecuted 🤭

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53 minutes ago, Christopherhays said:

 

Lol you may be on to something. I just saw him in another thread talking about how badly Christians are persecuted 🤭

I’m still here and I’m going to respond to some of these longer posts later due to my limited time.

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54 minutes ago, Christopherhays said:

 

Lol you may be on to something. I just saw him in another thread talking about how badly Christians are persecuted 🤭

I hope you don’t deny the persecution of Christians in certain countries around the world.

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7 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The problem here is that this belief doesn't make sense if god is omnipotent.   According to the bible, god confused the languages at the tower of Babel.  If god is fluent enough in each language to understand and answer prayers in each, then it stands to reason that he should also be able to translate his word accurately into each language.  We are back to a god who can't seem to say what he means.  Only, this time it's not because he is mysterious or anything; it's because he's incompetent.  Or rather, trusts his word to incompetent writers.  If god cannot control the accurate translation of his word, then he's not omnipotent.   If god makes mistakes, even just a small one, then he is not omnipotent.  Incidentally, if god can not maje mistakes, then he is also not omnipotent. 

Unfortunately your agreement only works if I claimed God himself physically and literally penned every word in the Bible like what Muslims claim about the Quran. People are doing the translating, God isn’t translating it for them and sending manuscripts down from heaven. By the way here’s no such thing as a 100% accuracy during translation, but the Biblical text have been translated well and translations keep improving as we discover older manuscripts and update our translations. Also no matter how smart a scribe is mistakes will still creep in, the vast majority of these mistakes don’t effect the text in any major way. So God has the preserved the Biblical text in one way or another. As I previously said God didn’t send down manuscripts from heaven, these were revelations given to certain people who wrote them down. That’s what the doctrine of Biblical inspiration really is at the end of the day.

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8 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

That was a reference to a Christian (LuthAMF) who came through recently who also said in regards to our rebuttals that we just didn't understand theology. This seems to be a common thing for Christians to say when we point out problems with theology. "You just don't understand" is a typical response we get.

 

Ironically you all seem to forget you are talking to Ex-Christians who generally have a fairly good understanding of theology, and it's pitfalls.

 

As far as the term "sock puppet" goes, not sure what TRP means there as sock puppet has a rather specific meaning on the internet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet) which in your case IMO is not the case. I'm sure TRP will be happy to clarify that for you.

 

Meanwhile responses like "you just don't understand" is simply going to make us go "here we go again - different face, same baloney" 

Being an ex Christian doesn’t make one an authority on Christianity. If I say you don’t understand theology I give the proper response which shows that you don’t. I even previously explained some of your mistakes regarding Christian theology in a previous post. I don’t just say “you don’t understand it” to dismiss your argument.

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16 minutes ago, Masihi said:

I’m still here and I’m going to respond to some of these longer posts later due to my limited time.

Just yes or no. Are slavery, murder, rape, and infanticide wrong? Do you support the Israelites participation in these practices? 

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1 hour ago, Masihi said:

I hope you don’t deny the persecution of Christians in certain countries around the world.

 Yes all persecution is wrong but don’t act like Christians are worse off than the rest of us. I was homeschooled for 18 years so my family could force feed me their choice dogma. I left a month after turning 18 to live on the streets! I was left scientifically illiterate, socially unprepared, completely broke, and without a friend in the world... that’s what Christianity has done for me. I still live in a car as I crawl out of the ditch I inherited!

     Persecution starts when people don’t accept other perspectives and opinions. No one is less accepting than Christians. They are literally throwing out their own children because they disagree with the dogma! My best friend growing up committed suicide because our community couldn’t accept his same sex attraction. After so many failed attempts to make him “normal” he lost hope. that’s what Christianity is doing! Forgive me if I don’t feel so sympathetic when you all whine about what’s unfair.

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Being an ex Christian doesn’t make one an authority on Christianity. If I say you don’t understand theology I give the proper response which shows that you don’t. I even previously explained some of your mistakes regarding Christian theology in a previous post. I don’t just say “you don’t understand it” to dismiss your argument.

 

Fair points, though I would rebut the claim that says your response shows I don't. You and I quite clearly have quite different theologies I I will show with my replies below. Some I answer using my own ex christian theology, some as my current position. Many of the theological issues we are discussing have been discussed for 2000 years and continue being discussed.

 

22 hours ago, Masihi said:

Notice the difference? 

 

Yes - you can readily point out the flaws of Islam, but not Christianity.

 

Quote

Isaiah 7:14 is hardly the foundation of Christianity, but pretty much nothing discussed in the post you quoted for me really refutes the Christian understanding of it, can almah mean virgin yes it can and most likely refers to a young women or an unwed maiden so the use of the word almah in of itself does indicate virginity. Either way it doesn’t contradict the Christian understanding of the verse. Here’s some Biblical commentary on Isaiah 7:14:

 

You realize the usage of the word almah is but one line of refutation. The fact that he's talking directly to the king, and that a few chapters later discusses the now fulfilled prophesy puts a bit of a dent in it. Not to mention direct reference of him sitting on the throne of David, which Jesus never did. This requires some major theological apologetic to get around.

 

Quote

There also seems to be a major lack of understanding of christian theology on your part. God didn’t New to come down and have a son, his Son is his Wisdom and his Word begotten of his nature.  God the Father is not his Son and his Son is himself. There is one God in nature that multiple self existences (that’s what the word hypostasis indicates) that are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

With my Christian hat on I respectfully disagree. If you create multiple self existences you are essentially saying there are three Gods. This is polytheism and directly contradicts the first commandment - "You shall have no other gods before Me." The God of the OT is one God. You go ask any religious Jew.

 

Quote

He’s not sacrificing himself to himself that’s Modalism or Oneness theology.

 

Yes, one God three different offices. So essentially he is, at least under the theology I'm familiar with.

 

Essentially it breaks down to this: If you have a oneness theology then your god does sacrifice himself to himself because the father and the son are one. (Jesus literally said that)

 

If, you are trinitarian, as you seem to hold, then there are three separate god entities and you are polytheist. Now the OT is full of warnings against polytheism so I'm not sure how one (Orthodox and Catholics?) holds such a position without essentially throwing away 1500 years of Jewish theology that that the NT is based on. 

 

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God didn’t create Sin nor will it for Adam, just some advice read Saint Athanasius’s On the Incarnation, it pretty much deals with the whole issue. God made man to be perfect and sinless, however it was man who decided to know and discover sin, God didn’t make man sinful he made him in his image what’s, God in his love attempted to fix that and make us back into his perfect image.

 

 

I don't think you are looking at the logical impossibility of what you are proposing. For man to sin he had to be created with the ability to sin which ipso facto rules him out being perfect. That's why a sinless sacrifice (Jesus) was needed. I'm not sure how you get past the issue that under Christian theology there was nothing, then God created everything, thus in order for anything such as sin or evil etc to exist it must have been created by the creator. Unless, of course god is not omniscient, omnipotent and all loving. He could for example be a bumbling fool and create the ability to sin unknowingly and then go oppsie we'd better fix that... by sacrificing my son 13.8 billion years after I create the universe.

 

Quote

By the way you know we don’t inherit the responsibility for Adam’s sin, we inherit its consequences which is death and corruption not his personal sin. Just like we as people suffer the consequences of the decisions of our parents, although we aren’t to blame for it. Sins do however have 

 

 

This is incorrect. Adams sin is imputed to us. Not just the consequences thereof. The consequences of Adams sin is a fallen world, hence why they are driven out of Eden. But everyone is born a sinner because Adams sin is imputed to us before we even take our first breath. 

 

 

Whew. Christian hat off. I feel like the theological arguments back in the old days. 

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42 minutes ago, Christopherhays said:

 Yes all persecution is wrong but don’t act like Christians are worse off than the rest of us. I was homeschooled for 18 years so my family could force feed me their choice dogma. I left a month after turning 18 to live on the streets! I was left scientifically illiterate, socially unprepared, completely broke, and without a friend in the world... that’s what Christianity has done for me. I still live in a car as I crawl out of the ditch I inherited!

     Persecution starts when people don’t accept other perspectives and opinions. No one is less accepting than Christians. They are literally throwing out their own children because they disagree with the dogma! My best friend growing up committed suicide because our community couldn’t accept his same sex attraction. After so many failed attempts to make him “normal” he lost hope. that’s what Christianity is doing! Forgive me if I don’t feel so sympathetic when you all whine about what’s unfair.

How is that a problem with Christianity it’s more like a personal issue with your family. So where does it teach anywhere in Christian dogma to throw your kids out of the house if they aren’t Christian? Also how is it even the Christian communities fault if your friend committed suicide because they wouldn’t accept his sexuality. Why not just leave the community or ignore their opinions, how is it anyone’s fault much less the whole religion that he took his own life by his own decision?  Did they execute his for his sexuality, because you seem to be acting as if they did. If the community didn’t treat him well then it would have been better if he left it. Can you show me a Biblical verse where it says to drive people to suicide or even a quotation from one of the Church Father’s. You want to know what really is unfair, that in my country I can’t even wear a cross openly, I can be jailed for my faith, I have to go to sleep every night worrying that someone might find out I left Islam for Christianity or that everything I write on the internet including this might be traced back to me. I don’t need that’s what’s really unfair here, and you don’t even know the half of it. So don’t you if even for one second take stuff like this lightly. Because I dream of having the freedoms you have in the West, but I don’t. My crime was that I chose a different religion then my society, you don’t need to be a Christian to have sympathy for the persecuted you only need to be human. Sorry if I got too personal, but stuff like this works me up.

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  2 hours ago, Christopherhays said:

 Yes all persecution is wrong but don’t act like Christians are worse off than the rest of us. I was homeschooled for 18 years so my family could force feed me their choice dogma. I left a month after turning 18 to live on the streets! I was left scientifically illiterate, socially unprepared, completely broke, and without a friend in the world... that’s what Christianity has done for me. I still live in a car as I crawl out of the ditch I inherited!

     Persecution starts when people don’t accept other perspectives and opinions. No one is less accepting than Christians. They are literally throwing out their own children because they disagree with the dogma! My best friend growing up committed suicide because our community couldn’t accept his same sex attraction. After so many failed attempts to make him “normal” he lost hope. that’s what Christianity is doing! Forgive me if I don’t feel so sympathetic when you all whine about what’s unfair.

Quote

How is that a problem with Christianity it’s more like a personal issue with your family. So where does it teach anywhere in Christian dogma to throw your kids out of the house if they aren’t Christian? Also how is it even the Christian communities fault if your friend committed suicide because they wouldn’t accept his sexuality. Why not just leave the community or ignore their opinions, how is it anyone’s fault much less the whole religion that he took his own life by his own decision?  Did they execute his for his sexuality, because you seem to be acting as if they did. If the community didn’t treat him well then it would have been better if he left it. Can you show me a Biblical verse where it says to drive people to suicide or even a quotation from one of the Church Father’s. You want to know what really is unfair, that in my country I can’t even wear a cross openly, I can be jailed for my faith, I have to go to sleep every night worrying that someone might find out I left Islam for Christianity or that everything I write on the internet including this might be traced back to me. I don’t need that’s what’s really unfair here, and you don’t even know the half of it. So don’t you if even for one second take stuff like this lightly. Because I dream of having the freedoms you have in the West, but I don’t. My crime was that I chose a different religion then my society, you don’t need to be a Christian to have sympathy for the persecuted you only need to be human. Sorry if I got too personal, but stuff like this works me up.

 

 

I really don't think a pissing match about the worst religion or state to live under is going to help here. From my point of view all religion is bad, it poisons everything. (To quote Hitchen's) Yes the Islamic states are some of the worst religious oppressors currently, though China is not much better on a straight out oppressive score. However religion affects all of us negatively in different ways.

 

Yes in Western counties we have it easier overall. Christianity is not held back, however, because of Christianity - it's held back by a secular state in all Western countries. We do not want to give Christianity back its full power or it could be like the forth beast in Daniel trampling all before it. 

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3 hours ago, Masihi said:

Unfortunately your agreement only works if I claimed God himself physically and literally penned every word in the Bible like what Muslims claim about the Quran. People are doing the translating, God isn’t translating it for them and sending manuscripts down from heaven. By the way here’s no such thing as a 100% accuracy during translation, but the Biblical text have been translated well and translations keep improving as we discover older manuscripts and update our translations. Also no matter how smart a scribe is mistakes will still creep in, the vast majority of these mistakes don’t effect the text in any major way. So God has the preserved the Biblical text in one way or another. As I previously said God didn’t send down manuscripts from heaven, these were revelations given to certain people who wrote them down. That’s what the doctrine of Biblical inspiration really is at the end of the day.

You're not thinking this through.  god is still in charge; god is still responsible.  Whether he writes the words himself or gets somebody else to do it for him is irrelevant.  He has placed ALL of our eternal souls at stake and it all hinges on us being able to accurately understand hos word.  Mistakes of any kind are unacceptable, no matter how small, if he is to condemn us to eternal hellfire for not understanding.  If he has the capacity to create the heavens and the earth, then it is also within his power to cause someone to write an "i" instead of an "a"; otherwise we might all spend centuries hating fags when god actually wanted us hating figs.  If he can't make himself clear, then he has no right to judge us for not understanding.

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3 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Yes - you can readily point out the flaws of Islam, but not Christianity.

 

 

You realize the usage of the word almah is but one line of refutation. The fact that he's talking directly to the king, and that a few chapters later discusses the now fulfilled prophesy puts a bit of a dent in it. Not to mention direct reference of him sitting on the throne of David, which Jesus never did. This requires some major theological apologetic to get around.

 

 

With my Christian hat on I respectfully disagree. If you create multiple self existences you are essentially saying there are three Gods. This is polytheism and directly contradicts the first commandment - "You shall have no other gods before Me." The God of the OT is one God. You go ask any religious Jew.

 

 

Yes, one God three different offices. So essentially he is, at least under the theology I'm familiar with.

 

Essentially it breaks down to this: If you have a oneness theology then your god does sacrifice himself to himself because the father and the son are one. (Jesus literally said that)

 

If, you are trinitarian, as you seem to hold, then there are three separate god entities and you are polytheist. Now the OT is full of warnings against polytheism so I'm not sure how one (Orthodox and Catholics?) holds such a position without essentially throwing away 1500 years of Jewish theology that that the NT is based on. 

 

 

 

I don't think you are looking at the logical impossibility of what you are proposing. For man to sin he had to be created with the ability to sin which ipso facto rules him out being perfect. That's why a sinless sacrifice (Jesus) was needed. I'm not sure how you get past the issue that under Christian theology there was nothing, then God created everything, thus in order for anything such as sin or evil etc to exist it must have been created by the creator. Unless, of course god is not omniscient, omnipotent and all loving. He could for example be a bumbling fool and create the ability to sin unknowingly and then go oppsie we'd better fix that... by sacrificing my son 13.8 billion years after I create the universe.

 

 

 

This is incorrect. Adams sin is imputed to us. Not just the consequences thereof. The consequences of Adams sin is a fallen world, hence why they are driven out of Eden. But everyone is born a sinner because Adams sin is imputed to us before we even take our first breath. 

 

 

Whew. Christian hat off. I feel like the theological arguments back in the old days. 

Please read this is link on Isaiah 7:14 or would you prefer I post its contents:

 

https://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/is7-14.html

 

 I’m obviously a Trinitarian not a modalist, so I don’t believe God sacrifices himself to himself. Also one God having three separate existences doesn’t mean there are three gods. The amount of gods there are is determined by the substance or nature. The nature is what something is, there are multiple self existences of one singular divine nature thus there is one God in essence who as three separate states of existence. There is still one being called God therefore the argument of Polytheism is practically dismissed. You seem to have no knowledge of second temple Jewish theology, there were many Jews of the time who believed in two or three powers in heaven such as Philo of Alexandria who believed the Word of God was a Son to God, Michael Heiser an Old Testament scholar writes extensively on this issue. Pre rabbinical Judaism held to many ideas of God, the idea of a multi-personal God isn’t unique to Christianity or something Christian’s made up it was inherited by many areas of second temple Judaism. Trinitarianism isn’t polytheism, since there is one being called God who has multiple self existences not multiple god beings who exist separate from each other.  

 

Man was not created with sin, man was created pure and because God is just he let man choose his own fate, he didn’t create them to be robots with absolutely no choices or wills of their own. God knew man would choose what he chose, but as the old saying goes you never learn if you don’t make mistakes and you never learn unless you see he effects of your mistakes. Man chose sin and man chose evil. Evil exists out of humanities choice not out of God’s will, which is the point of the incarnation and atonement of Christ.

 

The consequences of Sin is itself a sinful nature, thus we are born with a sinful nature. The consequences of Adam’s sin are imputed to us not personal responsibility for his sin, Eastern Christianity defines this as death, while Western Christianity says we inherit both guilt and death, although not guilt in the sense of how the word is applied today.

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12 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You're not thinking this through.  god is still in charge; god is still responsible.  Whether he writes the words himself or gets somebody else to do it for him is irrelevant.  He has placed ALL of our eternal souls at stake and it all hinges on us being able to accurately understand hos word.  Mistakes of any kind are unacceptable, no matter how small, if he is to condemn us to eternal hellfire for not understanding.  If he has the capacity to create the heavens and the earth, then it is also within his power to cause someone to write an "i" instead of an "a"; otherwise we might all spend centuries hating fags when god actually wanted us hating figs.  If he can't make himself clear, then he has no right to judge us for not understanding.

One God isn’t writing everything himself and yes he is still in charge of the world, your reasoning is equal to asking why is the world imperfect if God is ruling it. God delegates free will to man, and he trusts man to safeguard and write his revelations. I’ve never met anyone who said they couldn’t understand the Bible, I’ve heard people say they don’t believe in it, don’t agree with it, don’t like it, but never that they don’t understand it. And God isn’t going to murder you because you fail to grasp something in the Biblical text. Fortunately the Bible wasn’t written in English and the mistake between fig and fag never happened the term, the sentence or praise of hating Fags isn’t even in the Bible. Assuming that such a thing did happen, all you’d have to do is compare manuscripts and the context of the passages, then the original reading will then be discovered. That’s pretty much what scholars do today with Biblical manuscripts be so far it’s been going good. Christians are to hate the sin of homosexuality and actions of homosexuality not the people who commit such actions, after all people aren’t on moral high grounds to judge other people. We judge their actions. Hate the sin not the sinner. 

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