Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
LogicalFallacy

Masihi - Why do you believe God exists?

Recommended Posts

Hi @Masihi

 

We've been having a great theological discussion, and you've told us that you left Islam and accepted Christianity based on theological reasons. What we haven't gotten into is why do you believe God exists in the first place? From what I can gather you were raised Muslim therefore you were just brought up believing God existed. 

 

Now that you are an adult though, what are your reasons for accepting the proposition that God exists is true?

 

If you (Or anyone else) wants to have a discussion around our various reasons for accepting/not accepting the proposition please post away. This isn't a formal debate or anything.

 

Please start off with the definition of the God you are proposing so we can avoid arguing strawnman positions.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here’s my story, I never believed in Islam in my life, although I was influenced by paganism at a young age so I grew interested in polytheistic middle eastern pantheons and became a pagan. I then started being influenced by Zoroastrianism and pretty much combined paganism and Zoroastrianism, such as venerating fire, prostrating to idols, and so on. Judaism seemed too ethnically closed and incomplete for me to believe in, so Christianity was the only Abrahamic faith I held sympathy for at the time, while I deeply hated and resented Islam and Judaism at the time. After a while of looking into Christianity I grew more interested in it and found its theology to be superior to paganism in pretty much every way as an organized monotheistic religion, not to mention Muslims pretty easily decimated my pagan theology in religious discussions, the concept of multiple gods that drink, eat, have sex, cry, sleep, and fight with each other every now and then isn’t an idea that’s really logical much less one that sticks. Over time I as I started getting interested in Christianity, questioning whether the gods could really hear me or if they even existed, the idea of one God seemed more logical to me, but I didn’t want to accept monotheism because I felt Islam held to it thus Christianity was too similar to Islam so I still pretty much kept some resistance because I wanted something different to the religion I was born in and I kept misinterpreting Christianity to be the same thing. The idea of God incarnating as a real historical person seemed much better to me then worshipping gods that never showed themselves to people and who kept the afterlife under lock and key. Over time I grew more distant from paganism and one day decided to do a test of faith, to my gods and the Christian God, I said that I would believe in the one that I would see at night, surprisingly that very same night, I had a dream of a man draped in white, I knew immediately that this man was Christ. I felt very happy the next day, gave up on polytheism, I still have my idols, I keep them as art as I finally admitted to myself that they are not alive. From that day on I committed my life to Christ. Now I’m not making this story up, I really took the dream as a supernatural experience, and ever since then I’ve never felt happier on the spiritual level, of course I’m deeply upset due to my persecution and religious differences with my family, but I’m happy and satisfied. Over a period of two years I grew from knowing nothing about Christianity to knowing quite a lot about it, I got into debates with Muslims and I’m starting apologetics, hope to go to college to study theology in the West some day, maybe I’ll become an apologist or I’ll join the clergy after I’m baptized into the Church, as defending my faith and studying theology makes me feel happy deep down inside. I believe God saved me, protects me from persecution and guides me and fills me with knowledge.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Masihi said:

Here’s my story, I never believed in Islam in my life, although I was influenced by paganism at a young age so I grew interested in polytheistic middle eastern pantheons and became a pagan. I then started being influenced by Zoroastrianism and pretty much combined paganism and Zoroastrianism, such as venerating fire, prostrating to idols, and so on. Judaism seemed too ethnically closed and incomplete for me to believe in, so Christianity was the only Abrahamic faith I held sympathy for at the time, while I deeply hated and resented Islam and Judaism at the time. After a while of looking into Christianity I grew more interested in it and found its theology to be superior to paganism in pretty much every way as an organized monotheistic religion, not to mention Muslims pretty easily decimated my pagan theology in religious discussions, the concept of multiple gods that drink, eat, have sex, cry, sleep, and fight with each other every now and then isn’t an idea that’s really logical much less one that sticks. Over time I as I started getting interested in Christianity, questioning whether the gods could really hear me or if they even existed, the idea of one God seemed more logical to me, but I didn’t want to accept monotheism because I felt Islam held to it thus Christianity was too similar to Islam so I still pretty much kept some resistance because I wanted something different to the religion I was born in and I kept misinterpreting Christianity to be the same thing. The idea of God incarnating as a real historical person seemed much better to me then worshipping gods that never showed themselves to people and who kept the afterlife under lock and key. Over time I grew more distant from paganism and one day decided to do a test of faith, to my gods and the Christian God, I said that I would believe in the one that I would see at night, surprisingly that very same night, I had a dream of a man draped in white, I knew immediately that this man was Christ. I felt very happy the next day, gave up on polytheism, I still have my idols, I keep them as art as I finally admitted to myself that they are not alive. From that day on I committed my life to Christ. Now I’m not making this story up, I really took the dream as a supernatural experience, and ever since then I’ve never felt happier on the spiritual level, of course I’m deeply upset due to my persecution and religious differences with my family, but I’m happy and satisfied. Over a period of two years I grew from knowing nothing about Christianity to knowing quite a lot about it, I got into debates with Muslims and I’m starting apologetics, hope to go to college to study theology in the West some day, maybe I’ll become an apologist or I’ll join the clergy after I’m baptized into the Church, as defending my faith and studying theology makes me feel happy deep down inside. I believe God saved me, protects me from persecution and guides me and fills me with knowledge.  

So you had a supernatural experience. You want to believe. It feels natural to you. Etc. None of those are clearly logically thought out reasons for the existence of the Christian god. We should believe in him/her/whatever because you had a dream? Personal experience is not evidence. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dreamed about a guy wearing white as well. Turned out is was Colonel Sanders. Now I love fried chicken. Fried chicken makes me happy, full, complete.

 

If that's not conclusive proof I don't know what is.

 

  • Haha 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Masihi said:

Here’s my story, I never believed in Islam in my life, although I was influenced by paganism at a young age so I grew interested in polytheistic middle eastern pantheons and became a pagan. I then started being influenced by Zoroastrianism and pretty much combined paganism and Zoroastrianism, such as venerating fire, prostrating to idols, and so on. Judaism seemed too ethnically closed and incomplete for me to believe in, so Christianity was the only Abrahamic faith I held sympathy for at the time, while I deeply hated and resented Islam and Judaism at the time. After a while of looking into Christianity I grew more interested in it and found its theology to be superior to paganism in pretty much every way as an organized monotheistic religion,

 

Ok so you've been around a few religions.

 

2 hours ago, Masihi said:

Muslims pretty easily decimated my pagan theology in religious discussions, the concept of multiple gods that drink, eat, have sex, cry, sleep, and fight with each other every now and then isn’t an idea that’s really logical much less one that sticks.

 

But a God having a son who is sacrificed, and who has an arch enemy in Satan (Whom he incidentally created) is logical? I don't follow your reasoning here.

 

2 hours ago, Masihi said:

Over time I as I started getting interested in Christianity, questioning whether the gods could really hear me or if they even existed, the idea of one God seemed more logical to me, but I didn’t want to accept monotheism because I felt Islam held to it thus Christianity was too similar to Islam so I still pretty much kept some resistance because I wanted something different to the religion I was born in and I kept misinterpreting Christianity to be the same thing. The idea of God incarnating as a real historical person seemed much better to me then worshipping gods that never showed themselves to people and who kept the afterlife under lock and key.

 

You realize gods incarnating as humans is not a new concept, and certainly not restricted to Christianity? Christian wasn't even the first religion to come up with the idea.

 

2 hours ago, Masihi said:

Over time I grew more distant from paganism and one day decided to do a test of faith, to my gods and the Christian God, I said that I would believe in the one that I would see at night, surprisingly that very same night, I had a dream of a man draped in white, I knew immediately that this man was Christ.

 

How did you know this? How do you distinguish this dream experience from the dreams of millions of others who also have experiences involving all other different gods? There is a story of a Christian surgeon on youtube who's daughter was dying from a 'non curable' heart condition. He felt drawn to pray to Allah to heal his daughter. The daughter miraculously got better and he now devotes his life to spreading the message of Islam. How does anyone distinguish between your story and his?

 

Why do you not find his experience more compelling than yours?

 

2 hours ago, Masihi said:

I felt very happy the next day, gave up on polytheism, I still have my idols, I keep them as art as I finally admitted to myself that they are not alive. From that day on I committed my life to Christ. Now I’m not making this story up, I really took the dream as a supernatural experience, and ever since then I’ve never felt happier on the spiritual level, of course I’m deeply upset due to my persecution and religious differences with my family, but I’m happy and satisfied. Over a period of two years I grew from knowing nothing about Christianity to knowing quite a lot about it, I got into debates with Muslims and I’m starting apologetics, hope to go to college to study theology in the West some day, maybe I’ll become an apologist or I’ll join the clergy after I’m baptized into the Church, as defending my faith and studying theology makes me feel happy deep down inside. I believe God saved me, protects me from persecution and guides me and fills me with knowledge.  

 

I believe you had a dream that you interpreted as being from the God you were currently looking into. However, this is an emotional argument. You seem very well read, I assume you will know why an emotional argument shouldn't convince anyone of the truth of anything. Being happy about something doesn't make it true. Many issues with politics these days is because people hold a position for emotional reasons not rational evidence based reasons.

 

I dreamed I could fly. Should I jump off a building, or should I go with the available evidence which states I will fall and die?

 

So I guess my main question based on your story is: should anyone accept a proposition because they had an experience?

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Masihi said:

gods that drink, eat, have sex, cry, sleep, and fight with each other every now and then isn’t an idea that’s really logical

jesus came eating and drinking (Matt 11:19).  jesus impregnated his own mother (Luke 2).  jesus wept (John 11:35).  jesus slept (Matt 8:24).  jesus fought with Satan (Matt 4).

 

How is it really logical to believe in one god who does the same things?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

jesus came eating and drinking (Matt 11:19).  jesus impregnated his own mother (Luke 2).  jesus wept (John 11:35).  jesus slept (Matt 8:24).  jesus fought with Satan (Matt 4).

 

How is it really logical to believe in one god who does the same things?

 

Remember that Masihi doesn't hold to oneness theology therefore Jesus impregnating his own mother is a strawman. I already went down that line.

 

As far as I can tell Masihi holds that the father son and holy ghost are 3 separate entities. This raises the question of polytheism imo.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Remember that Masihi doesn't hold to oneness theology therefore Jesus impregnating his own mother is a strawman. I already went down that line.

 

As far as I can tell Masihi holds that the father son and holy ghost are 3 separate entities. This raises the question of polytheism imo.

 

Christianity works best when you dont question silly stuff, but just accept silly stuff.

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

jesus came eating and drinking (Matt 11:19).  jesus impregnated his own mother (Luke 2).  jesus wept (John 11:35).  jesus slept (Matt 8:24).  jesus fought with Satan (Matt 4).

 

How is it really logical to believe in one god who does the same things?

Yeah as LogicalFallacy pointed out I’m not a modalist, so quoting Luke 2 is a straw man, Jesus ate and rank because he had a human nature, if he was only divine in nature like pagan gods then it wouldn’t make sense for him to weep, sleep, or cry. Satan isn’t another god, he’s a creation, hw does that compare to multiple creators battling it out because of personal issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Remember that Masihi doesn't hold to oneness theology therefore Jesus impregnating his own mother is a strawman. I already went down that line.

 

As far as I can tell Masihi holds that the father son and holy ghost are 3 separate entities. This raises the question of polytheism imo.

I’m Trinitarian, but I’m not a Tritheist. I don’t believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate beings or entities as that would be polytheism, I believe they are all hypostatises (meaning self existence or awareness) of one being called God. Although each hypostatise is distinct from each other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Ok so you've been around a few religions.

 

 

But a God having a son who is sacrificed, and who has an arch enemy in Satan (Whom he incidentally created) is logical? I don't follow your reasoning here.

 

 

You realize gods incarnating as humans is not a new concept, and certainly not restricted to Christianity? Christian wasn't even the first religion to come up with the idea.

 

 

How did you know this? How do you distinguish this dream experience from the dreams of millions of others who also have experiences involving all other different gods? There is a story of a Christian surgeon on youtube who's daughter was dying from a 'non curable' heart condition. He felt drawn to pray to Allah to heal his daughter. The daughter miraculously got better and he now devotes his life to spreading the message of Islam. How does anyone distinguish between your story and his?

 

Why do you not find his experience more compelling than yours?

 

 

I believe you had a dream that you interpreted as being from the God you were currently looking into. However, this is an emotional argument. You seem very well read, I assume you will know why an emotional argument shouldn't convince anyone of the truth of anything. Being happy about something doesn't make it true. Many issues with politics these days is because people hold a position for emotional reasons not rational evidence based reasons.

 

I dreamed I could fly. Should I jump off a building, or should I go with the available evidence which states I will fall and die?

 

So I guess my main question based on your story is: should anyone accept a proposition because they had an experience?

 

God’s Son is his uncreated Word And Logos,  not his sexual offspring, so yeah that does make a lot of sense, because if God has a Word which he obviously does then it has to be uncreated otherwise God’s Logos is not eternal, and if it’s eternal and distinct from God while being begotten of him then it’s by nature another hypostatis of him. The Christian idea of the incarnation is really unique to it, other religions believed in gods taking human form not in a god literally becoming a man while retaining his own divine nature without mixing it with the human nature in unity like Christianity states. “And the Word became flesh” is unique to Christianity. I think you misunderstood what I posted, I wasn’t using my story as an argument for Christianity, it’s not meant to be a rational argument nor would I claim it is. I believed in Christianity also because I find it to be more rational then Islam, Paganism, Judaism, or other religions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Masihi said:

God’s Son is his uncreated Word And Logos,  not his sexual offspring, so yeah that does make a lot of sense, because if God has a Word which he obviously does then it has to be uncreated otherwise God’s Logos is not eternal, and if it’s eternal and distinct from God while being begotten of him then it’s by nature another hypostatis of him.

 

You are discussing theology again. Theology already presupposes the proposition to be true. What evidence do you have that any of this is true?

 

3 hours ago, Masihi said:

 The Christian idea of the incarnation is really unique to it, other religions believed in gods taking human form not in a god literally becoming a man while retaining his own divine nature without mixing it with the human nature in unity like Christianity states. “And the Word became flesh” is unique to Christianity.

 

It's not as unique as you seem to think it is. There is a long history of humans thinking about Gods mixing with humans, or humans becoming gods, or being Gods. Christianity is just a variation of this theme. You are widely read on various religions, I'm not sure why you don't see the connection.

 

3 hours ago, Masihi said:

I think you misunderstood what I posted, I wasn’t using my story as an argument for Christianity, it’s not meant to be a rational argument nor would I claim it is.

 

Hmm maybe - I mean in a thread where I ask you, why do you believe God exists, and you post your story, one can forgive me for thinking that's your argument. Usually one should lead with their strongest most rational and demonstrable argument first.

 

So do you have a rational argument for the existence of God since we've established that your personal experience is not a rational basis to accept god exists.

 

3 hours ago, Masihi said:

I believed in Christianity also because I find it to be more rational then Islam, Paganism, Judaism, or other religions.

 

I'm not sure why you find it more rational than Judaism. Judaism is the religion of Gods chosen people. It's perfectly rational. Under Christian theology, the only problem is that the Jews missed the change and coming of the messiah. Christianity is based on Judaism.

 

But more to the point why do you find it more rational - simply because it's more internally coherent, or have you finally found some remarkable evidence of God that's thus far eluded the world?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Masihi said:

Yeah as LogicalFallacy pointed out I’m not a modalist, so quoting Luke 2 is a straw man, Jesus ate and rank because he had a human nature, if he was only divine in nature like pagan gods then it wouldn’t make sense for him to weep, sleep, or cry. Satan isn’t another god, he’s a creation, hw does that compare to multiple creators battling it out because of personal issues.

Fair enough, it's slightly less illogical to believe different versions of the same stories.  But this still doesn't explain why god exists.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

You are discussing theology again. Theology already presupposes the proposition to be true. What evidence do you have that any of this is true?

 

 

It's not as unique as you seem to think it is. There is a long history of humans thinking about Gods mixing with humans, or humans becoming gods, or being Gods. Christianity is just a variation of this theme. You are widely read on various religions, I'm not sure why you don't see the connection.

 

 

Hmm maybe - I mean in a thread where I ask you, why do you believe God exists, and you post your story, one can forgive me for thinking that's your argument. Usually one should lead with their strongest most rational and demonstrable argument first.

 

So do you have a rational argument for the existence of God since we've established that your personal experience is not a rational basis to accept god exists.

 

 

I'm not sure why you find it more rational than Judaism. Judaism is the religion of Gods chosen people. It's perfectly rational. Under Christian theology, the only problem is that the Jews missed the change and coming of the messiah. Christianity is based on Judaism.

 

But more to the point why do you find it more rational - simply because it's more internally coherent, or have you finally found some remarkable evidence of God that's thus far eluded the world?

I’m not presupposing anything, the only thing in pre supposing is the existence of God, if God exist he must have a Logos, if the Logos exists then it must be uncreated, and if it is then it’s another hypostasis of God. But I think we have to go back to square one and argue about God’s existence, but as I previously said I’m not familiar of arguing with atheist as I never engage with them in daily life. So I might not be able to adequately prove the existence of God to you. I’m not even familiar with William Lane Craig’s arguments. This might be my best argument for God’s existence and the only one I’m really familiar with:

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DMzLMe6REJ8

 

The Christian idea of the incarnation as defined by the scriptures, creeds, and apostolic Church authority are unique, no real exact equivalent of the Christian idea of the incarnation exists in other religions. Sure there are similarities, but there is no similar theology among pagan religions of God literally becoming a real man while remaining a true deity to redeem the world by defeating the devil and sin really exists in pagan mythologies. Not to mention the extreme care Christians took to define and rationally explain these beliefs, which never happened in any pagan religion. 

 

Well if God is real and he is a loving God then naturally he would want his message and covenant to spread to the whole world. Jesus himself said that the kingdom would be taken from the Israelites and given to a people (the gentiles) who will produce its fruit. Also Judaism has many practices which it can’t even practice today even though they were a central part of Israelite theology, temple sacrifices and offerings being one of those things, the loss of a priesthood also being a large blow to Judaism. Which is why I don’t think it’s nearly as Christianity. Not to mention Jews don’t evangelize people despite having a truth which they don’t share with others, and the concept of the afterlife in Judaism is quite vague, some schools of thought that in rabbinical Judaism even deny the existence of an afterlife. These are only a few problems I have with Judaism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The flying spaghetti monster is a unique theology. Does this make the FSM real?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/20/2019 at 5:59 PM, Masihi said:

Here’s my story, I never believed in Islam in my life, although I was influenced by paganism at a young age so I grew interested in polytheistic middle eastern pantheons and became a pagan. I then started being influenced by Zoroastrianism and pretty much combined paganism and Zoroastrianism, such as venerating fire, prostrating to idols, and so on. Judaism seemed too ethnically closed and incomplete for me to believe in, so Christianity was the only Abrahamic faith I held sympathy for at the time, while I deeply hated and resented Islam and Judaism at the time. After a while of looking into Christianity I grew more interested in it and found its theology to be superior to paganism in pretty much every way as an organized monotheistic religion, not to mention Muslims pretty easily decimated my pagan theology in religious discussions, the concept of multiple gods that drink, eat, have sex, cry, sleep, and fight with each other every now and then isn’t an idea that’s really logical much less one that sticks. Over time I as I started getting interested in Christianity, questioning whether the gods could really hear me or if they even existed, the idea of one God seemed more logical to me, but I didn’t want to accept monotheism because I felt Islam held to it thus Christianity was too similar to Islam so I still pretty much kept some resistance because I wanted something different to the religion I was born in and I kept misinterpreting Christianity to be the same thing. The idea of God incarnating as a real historical person seemed much better to me then worshipping gods that never showed themselves to people and who kept the afterlife under lock and key. Over time I grew more distant from paganism and one day decided to do a test of faith, to my gods and the Christian God, I said that I would believe in the one that I would see at night, surprisingly that very same night, I had a dream of a man draped in white, I knew immediately that this man was Christ. I felt very happy the next day, gave up on polytheism, I still have my idols, I keep them as art as I finally admitted to myself that they are not alive. From that day on I committed my life to Christ. Now I’m not making this story up, I really took the dream as a supernatural experience, and ever since then I’ve never felt happier on the spiritual level, of course I’m deeply upset due to my persecution and religious differences with my family, but I’m happy and satisfied. Over a period of two years I grew from knowing nothing about Christianity to knowing quite a lot about it, I got into debates with Muslims and I’m starting apologetics, hope to go to college to study theology in the West some day, maybe I’ll become an apologist or I’ll join the clergy after I’m baptized into the Church, as defending my faith and studying theology makes me feel happy deep down inside. I believe God saved me, protects me from persecution and guides me and fills me with knowledge.  

Thanks for posting. God is very active in many Muslim cultures through supernatural dreams. Amen!

 

If you enjoy Apologetics using Natural Revelation,  I have  found  these two books to be extraordinarily edifying. The Kindle Editions are very reasonably priced.

https://www.amazon.com/Blackwell-Companion-Natural-Theology/dp/1444350854

https://www.amazon.com/Reasonable-Faith-Christian-Truth-Apologetics/dp/1433501155

 

God Bless, and may the Peace of Christ be with you.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/20/2019 at 6:55 PM, florduh said:

 

If that's not conclusive proof I don't know what is.

Exactly.  The fact you dreamed it clearly signifies that the your point is silly since you already knew about Colonel Sanders, KFC and chicken before your conversion.  Would you believe God told me that your really weren't  trying to make a point but just being sarcastic.  So were you trying to say Colonel Sanders did not actually exist?   Do you deny that Colonel Sanders and KFC are one?  Just because corporation do not have physical bodies doesn't mean that they do not exist.  If they don't exist then why it written in the law book that  Corporation is a real person just as every person that actually exist is real?  Do you deny that chicken are fowls that go upon two of their four appendage of locomotion?   But we know why people can't give a direct answer to a direct question :3:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Justus said:

Exactly.  The fact you dreamed it clearly signifies that the your point is silly since you already knew about Colonel Sanders, KFC and chicken before your conversion.  Would you believe God told me that your really weren't  trying to make a point but just being sarcastic.  So were you trying to say Colonel Sanders did not actually exist?   Do you deny that Colonel Sanders and KFC are one?  Just because corporation do not have physical bodies doesn't mean that they do not exist.  If they don't exist then why it written in the law book that  Corporation is a real person just as every person that actually exist is real?  Do you deny that chicken are fowls that go upon two of their four appendage of locomotion?   But we know why people can't give a direct answer to a direct question :3:

 

 

 

A corporation is a group of people. Without people, a corporation does not exist. A corporation does not bring itself into existence. A person or persons create some document which is approved by some other people and then by the 'power' of those people the corporation is said to exist. A corporation does not have independent consciousness. 

 

edit: I cant take a corporation to lunch or make out with it in my car. Corporations dont dance or play tennis. 

 

God is similar to a corporation, isnt he?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just out of curiosity. Do you Masihi belong to the non chalcedonian churches or the orthodox? Or want to belong? I ask this because the christology is slighthly different, at least in its phrasing. 

 

Also I recommend readind St Ignatius Brianceaninov,  russian orthodox mystic and saint about trusting your dreams. He urges one to be extremely skeptical. One of my first teachers in skepticism about personal experience in general. Of course he is totally orthodox in teaching so dont worry about being a trap or smth. He is 100 percent in favor of christianity denouncing atheism and all other religions as different forms and stages of spiritual deceit. Also catholicism and protestantism and all heresies as products of the cooperation between human and demonic darkness and pride.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

Just out of curiosity. Do you Masihi belong to the non chalcedonian churches or the orthodox? Or want to belong? I ask this because the christology is slighthly different, at least in its phrasing. 

 

Also I recommend readind St Ignatius Brianceaninov,  russian orthodox mystic and saint about trusting your dreams. He urges one to be extremely skeptical. One of my first teachers in skepticism about personal experience in general. Of course he is totally orthodox in teaching so dont worry about being a trap or smth. He is 100 percent in favor of christianity denouncing atheism and all other religions as different forms and stages of spiritual deceit. Also catholicism and protestantism and all heresies as products of the cooperation between human and demonic darkness and pride.

To be honest I currently lean to the Non Chalcedonian position, I used to think Non Chalcedonianism was Monophysitism although this wasn’t the case, the Miaphysite Christology seems to be more faithful to the Christology of Saint Athanaius and Saint Cyril. And the Church which I’m probably going to be received into in the future is the Syriac Orthodox Church. The Non Chalcedonian Miaphystie Churches are just as Orthodox as the Chalcedonian Churches. I’m currently not a part of any denomination due to my Muslim background, however I always have identified with the Eastern Churches. I briefly tried going Eastern Catholic, but in the end I fipound out you have to attempt to rationalize many beliefs in Catholicism that are quite odd and vague despite being essential doctrines such as Papal infallibility, the role of the Pope and the direction the Catholic Church is currently heading really turns me off and Protestantism never caught my eye or made much sense to me. So currently I’m left with the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, although I’m still trying to do research on the subject before I go full on Chalcedonian or Non Chalcedonian, despite my previous Chalcedonian stance and my now more Non Chalcedonian Miaphysite leanings. 

 

I’m not using my dreams to prove Christianity, in the beginning there were many things within the Christian faith that I could barely grasp much less understand, after much time researching within a year or two I could understand the majority of important Christian doctrine, nowadays I’m perfectly able of teaching them, some evangelical and Roman Catholic foreign workers even ask me complex theological questions about Christianity which I try to explain to them and convey to them mostly about the trinity or incarnation or person of Christ. Despite the obvious different theological views between us (traditional Eastern Christian theology and Western Roman Catholicism and Evangelical fundamentalism). So I believe in Christianity because I feel I can make sense of essential parts of its Christology and other parts of its theology. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/24/2019 at 7:05 PM, Masihi said:

To be honest I currently lean to the Non Chalcedonian position, I used to think Non Chalcedonianism was Monophysitism although this wasn’t the case, the Miaphysite Christology seems to be more faithful to the Christology of Saint Athanaius and Saint Cyril. And the Church which I’m probably going to be received into in the future is the Syriac Orthodox Church. The Non Chalcedonian Miaphystie Churches are just as Orthodox as the Chalcedonian Churches. I’m currently not a part of any denomination due to my Muslim background, however I always have identified with the Eastern Churches. I briefly tried going Eastern Catholic, but in the end I fipound out you have to attempt to rationalize many beliefs in Catholicism that are quite odd and vague despite being essential doctrines such as Papal infallibility, the role of the Pope and the direction the Catholic Church is currently heading really turns me off and Protestantism never caught my eye or made much sense to me. So currently I’m left with the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, although I’m still trying to do research on the subject before I go full on Chalcedonian or Non Chalcedonian, despite my previous Chalcedonian stance and my now more Non Chalcedonian Miaphysite leanings. 

 

I’m not using my dreams to prove Christianity, in the beginning there were many things within the Christian faith that I could barely grasp much less understand, after much time researching within a year or two I could understand the majority of important Christian doctrine, nowadays I’m perfectly able of teaching them, some evangelical and Roman Catholic foreign workers even ask me complex theological questions about Christianity which I try to explain to them and convey to them mostly about the trinity or incarnation or person of Christ. Despite the obvious different theological views between us (traditional Eastern Christian theology and Western Roman Catholicism and Evangelical fundamentalism). So I believe in Christianity because I feel I can make sense of essential parts of its Christology and other parts of its theology. 

You said you had a dream about a man who you identified as Christ which led you to believe/ choose Christianity. I gave the example of St Ignatius because I think dreams are a poor guide to literal truth, although fascinating and revealing at a subcounscious/ metaphorical level. 

 

By the way is the profile picture an icon of St John Damascene? Really great debater/ theologian that man was. And poet/ songwriter. Pretty well rounded.

 

The Eastern Orthodox would usually not agree with you on that point. But I have met some who say the problems at the Chalcedon separation were mainly political and that there is no difference in dogmas just different terms. Likewise an Armenian priest. However I am not an expert on ancient Church history/ theology. However I wanted to visit Egypt and Syria to see the first major monastic places and true deserts. There are a lot of monasteries in Romania but no deserts like in Egypt or Syria.

 

Most Christians are highly uneducated about their dogmas / faith in general. 

 

By the way if you are interested in long drawn out arguments against Christianity as some practice for your future you should read the anti christian literature by muslims jews and newer atheists like Richard Dawkins like Sam Haris Dan Dennet and also a lot of psychology,  especially social psychology and mind control like Steven Hassan and others about the psychological aspects of stuff like conversion. On Bible History the blog of Bart Ehrman , although for a small price, could be a start.  I mean stuff beyond just forum conversations. 

 

By the way do you consider there is amy difference between Jesus and a saint? I mean is the union of the human part and divine part in Jesus different from the union of the divine and the human part in a human? 

 

When you pray to Jesus do you pray to the human part or the divine part? Because the official theology is that the human part suffered  and died on the cross but the divine part did not as it is invulnerable so even though they are united these parts have different experiences. Like you said the divine part does not sleep the human part does. The human part cannot control the sea/ wind / devils the divine part can. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/24/2019 at 12:05 PM, Masihi said:

I’m not using my dreams to prove Christianity

 

That's a smart move, Masihi! 😂

 

The biggest issue you'll be up against is the fact that christianity boils down to a foundation of presupposition and apriori assumptions.

 

Everything christian theologians build up necessarily is build on these foundations. Atheist's have become laser focused on this fact and the word is spreading around. This, is the future of christian apologetic's. Currently it seems fashionable to deny or ignore these facts on the table. But they aren't going away and can't be ignored. They can't be denied either, without substantiating 1) the existence of god and 2) the truth of the jewish and christian scriptures. Without substantiation, the christian has ONLY presupposition and apriori assumption. 

 

What good does it do for a christian to make the same charges towards non believers? 

 

From what I can see, it can only do as good as leveling the playing field and demonstrating that everyone, in one way or another, relies on foundations of presupposition and apriori assumptions. That may or may not make for a good argument. But even if we grant that it does, that only keeps christians (like everyone else in this example) dependent on presupposition and apriori assumption. It does nothing to demonstrate the "truth" of theistic belief nor christianity. The problem here are the claims of "truth." The claims remain unsubstantiated. And my example debate demonstrates that. Genesis 1 can not be substantiated as "truth." Attempts to do so end in epic failure, as demonstrated. Christians hitting a brick wall. 

 

I've suggested that an agnostic theist approach could serve to over come the above problem. But it requires that the apologist be careful to stick closely to intellectually honest claims and statement making.

 

For example: 

 

1) I don't know if a god exists, but I assume that one does exist. I can't prove this claim, it's just what I strongly believe in based on personal reasons. 

2) I don't know if the bible is factually true or meant by the original writers to be taken as such, however I choose to read it as if it were factually true and proceed based on that assumption.  

3) I don't know if there is or is not an afterlife, rewards or punishments in a here after, however, based on the above I choose to believe that there is and proceed based on that assumption. 

 

First off, atheists can not attack you at this point on grounds of intellectual dishonesty. And you don't have to look like the horses ass in front of everyone for being intellectually dishonest if you simply keep it real. It's a humble approach. You recognize that claiming that presupposition and apriori assumption does NOT equate to absolute truth. But, regardless, you choose to believe that it's true anyways, which, is your right to do so. Everyone's free to believe whatever they want, no matter how foolish or unlikely.

 

And you may argue that you don't believe that christianity is foolish or unlikely. While others contrast your belief with how foolish and unlikely they think that it is. Interested people read through and listen to the exchanges and weight it out for themselves. In all of this you have no trump card, no home runs for christianity that demonstrate the "truth" of it. You have a personal conviction of belief and testify about your beliefs to others without the intellectually dishonest claims associated with making absolute truth claims and the baggage that comes along with it. 

 

But, this is not good enough for most christians. Intellectual honesty is not good enough for the majority of christians out there in the world.

 

And so they suffer the consequences everyday online and abroad among dissenters. People read through the horrible examples many christian apologist's set forward. And many people here literally lost faith and belief BECAUSE of intellectually dishonest christian apologist's and the examples that they set forward. There's a situation going on where christian apologist's are responsible for creating "ex christians" all the time. And it's because they're transparently dishonest in X number of ways and people start seeing through the smoke screen. 

 

How aware of the role of christian apologetic's in deconversion are you, Masihi? 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/25/2019 at 9:23 PM, Myrkhoos said:

You said you had a dream about a man who you identified as Christ which led you to believe/ choose Christianity. I gave the example of St Ignatius because I think dreams are a poor guide to literal truth, although fascinating and revealing at a subcounscious/ metaphorical level. 

 

By the way is the profile picture an icon of St John Damascene? Really great debater/ theologian that man was. And poet/ songwriter. Pretty well rounded.

 

The Eastern Orthodox would usually not agree with you on that point. But I have met some who say the problems at the Chalcedon separation were mainly political and that there is no difference in dogmas just different terms. Likewise an Armenian priest. However I am not an expert on ancient Church history/ theology. However I wanted to visit Egypt and Syria to see the first major monastic places and true deserts. There are a lot of monasteries in Romania but no deserts like in Egypt or Syria.

 

Most Christians are highly uneducated about their dogmas / faith in general. 

 

By the way if you are interested in long drawn out arguments against Christianity as some practice for your future you should read the anti christian literature by muslims jews and newer atheists like Richard Dawkins like Sam Haris Dan Dennet and also a lot of psychology,  especially social psychology and mind control like Steven Hassan and others about the psychological aspects of stuff like conversion. On Bible History the blog of Bart Ehrman , although for a small price, could be a start.  I mean stuff beyond just forum conversations. 

 

By the way do you consider there is amy difference between Jesus and a saint? I mean is the union of the human part and divine part in Jesus different from the union of the divine and the human part in a human? 

 

When you pray to Jesus do you pray to the human part or the divine part? Because the official theology is that the human part suffered  and died on the cross but the divine part did not as it is invulnerable so even though they are united these parts have different experiences. Like you said the divine part does not sleep the human part does. The human part cannot control the sea/ wind / devils the divine part can. 

As I said the dream was and is not the source of my faith in Christianity, not to mention that I already considered converting to Christianity before I had any sort of supernatural dream of any kind. Yes, my profile picture is of Yuhanna Al Dimashqi, the man who fought heresy all his life and strove for the Orthodox faith with never ending zeal. I try to emulate him in many ways in how I deal with Islam or other heresies. Not to mention both he and I both grew up under Islamic empires under oppression and like him I try to never give up.

 

Most Eastern Orthodox currently view the Oriental Orthodox as schismatic rather then heretical, although some more conservative branches still think they are heretics although they are no currently in dialogue. Oriental and Eastern Orthodox theology is pretty much identical in everything except on how Christ’s nature is defined. Both Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox affirm Christ has both full humanity and full divinity that neither mix nor separate from each other. The only difference is that the Oriental Orthodox define this in the Miaphysite definition while the Eastern Orthodox along with Roman Catholics and Protestants are Dyophysites. If you come to the Middle East one day we could talk you around all our monasteries and Churches where Christianity first started.

 

Hopefully, I will be able to teach many Christians their faith one day after I learn enough to call myself a teacher as currently I’m just a student, in the end we all are.

 

Bart Ehrman arguments are frequently brought up to me so I’ve become familiar with his arguments and position, although most of the time Bart Ehrman isn’t saying what people seem to think he’s saying, and I’ve realzoed his position is often misunderstood by people who argue against Christianity especially Muslim opponents I’ve faced. I face Islamic arguments daily and I frequently watch their videos since like John of Damascus I have to frequently interact with them.

 

There seems to be a misconception of your concept of natures, Christ doesn’t have a divine and human part in him, the natures are not parts, they are wholes, as a nature can be split or divided. Jesus possesses full humanity and full divinity. The saints don’t posses a divine nature, it merely indwells in them, just as how it will indwell in u that’s how we become divinized or made in the image of God as we receive eternal life through Christ the second Adam, Son of God, and Logos incarnate, the saints don’t actually possess the divine nature.

 

When I pray to Christ l pray to the one divine person called Christ the Logos who took on flesh and humanity, natures are not conscient so they don’t suffer or experience things, persons do, natures just make you what you are either as man, plant, animal or God himself. So it was the one Christ who suffered on the cross and it was the one Christ who died and rose from the grave, it was the one Christ who slept and hungered. But how he did this is another question, when he suffered for our own sake and was put tod earth by crucifixion, he suffered in his humanity not his divinity, since the divinity being a spirit and not physical is immune to suffering and being divine is above such limitations of the flesh, likewise the human soul of Christ being a soul didn’t die, but went to hades or Sheol as all human souls did. Only the body suffered and died. Likewise the humanity of Christ, specifically his body hungered and ate and slept. Like wise when the One Christ rose from the dead it was due to his divinity being united to his humanity which pulled it from death and this is why Christ is immortal and immune to death, everlasting to everlasting and why he is pure and sinless, because of his divinity. I hope clarified any misconceptions or points you had.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Masihi said:

As I said the dream was and is not the source of my faith in Christianity, not to mention that I already considered converting to Christianity before I had any sort of supernatural dream of any kind. Yes, my profile picture is of Yuhanna Al Dimashqi, the man who fought heresy all his life and strove for the Orthodox faith with never ending zeal. I try to emulate him in many ways in how I deal with Islam or other heresies. Not to mention both he and I both grew up under Islamic empires under oppression and like him I try to never give up.

 

Most Eastern Orthodox currently view the Oriental Orthodox as schismatic rather then heretical, although some more conservative branches still think they are heretics although they are no currently in dialogue. Oriental and Eastern Orthodox theology is pretty much identical in everything except on how Christ’s nature is defined. Both Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox affirm Christ has both full humanity and full divinity that neither mix nor separate from each other. The only difference is that the Oriental Orthodox define this in the Miaphysite definition while the Eastern Orthodox along with Roman Catholics and Protestants are Dyophysites. If you come to the Middle East one day we could talk you around all our monasteries and Churches where Christianity first started.

 

Hopefully, I will be able to teach many Christians their faith one day after I learn enough to call myself a teacher as currently I’m just a student, in the end we all are.

 

Bart Ehrman arguments are frequently brought up to me so I’ve become familiar with his arguments and position, although most of the time Bart Ehrman isn’t saying what people seem to think he’s saying, and I’ve realzoed his position is often misunderstood by people who argue against Christianity especially Muslim opponents I’ve faced. I face Islamic arguments daily and I frequently watch their videos since like John of Damascus I have to frequently interact with them.

 

There seems to be a misconception of your concept of natures, Christ doesn’t have a divine and human part in him, the natures are not parts, they are wholes, as a nature can be split or divided. Jesus possesses full humanity and full divinity. The saints don’t posses a divine nature, it merely indwells in them, just as how it will indwell in u that’s how we become divinized or made in the image of God as we receive eternal life through Christ the second Adam, Son of God, and Logos incarnate, the saints don’t actually possess the divine nature.

 

When I pray to Christ l pray to the one divine person called Christ the Logos who took on flesh and humanity, natures are not conscient so they don’t suffer or experience things, persons do, natures just make you what you are either as man, plant, animal or God himself. So it was the one Christ who suffered on the cross and it was the one Christ who died and rose from the grave, it was the one Christ who slept and hungered. But how he did this is another question, when he suffered for our own sake and was put tod earth by crucifixion, he suffered in his humanity not his divinity, since the divinity being a spirit and not physical is immune to suffering and being divine is above such limitations of the flesh, likewise the human soul of Christ being a soul didn’t die, but went to hades or Sheol as all human souls did. Only the body suffered and died. Likewise the humanity of Christ, specifically his body hungered and ate and slept. Like wise when the One Christ rose from the dead it was due to his divinity being united to his humanity which pulled it from death and this is why Christ is immortal and immune to death, everlasting to everlasting and why he is pure and sinless, because of his divinity. I hope clarified any misconceptions or points you had.

You did not. But I have absolutely no desire or too much hope in showing you why.

 

I will say this, maybe it helps you know how you look in the face of others. 

 

You look full of enthusiasm, like a recent convert. As such your enthusiasm for the new belief overrides everything. Like falling in love.

 

It is an experience/ state many have had even here probably.

 

I hope all the best for you and no serious harm comes your way.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

You did not. But I have absolutely no desire or too much hope in showing you why.

 

I will say this, maybe it helps you know how you look in the face of others. 

 

You look full of enthusiasm, like a recent convert. As such your enthusiasm for the new belief overrides everything. Like falling in love.

 

It is an experience/ state many have had even here probably.

 

I hope all the best for you and no serious harm comes your way.

 

I agree. There's a passion here that is much like falling in love, fully engrossed in it to the extent that the bias/favor is invisible to the participant. We do not see clearly as humans in such a state. There's also a marked desire to identify as the persecuted one in a majority culture that believes otherwise. The persecuted and the special or chosen complexes are closer than one might think. I don't mean any offence, I'm simply stating how the case appears to those of us who have once been there. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.