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Moonobserver

The illogic of the "devil"

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The Christian conception of "Satan" seems to me to be flawed. Here, supposedly, was the highest of the angels, who was closer to God and knew the nature of God better than any other, mounting a rebellion against God.

 

The story says that this was because of pride in his heart, but is that really an adequate explanation? We're told that the most highly intelligent being ever created would, in all seriousness, attempt the overthrow of the one he knew to be the omnipotent creator and sustainer of absolutely everything, including himself. Such an entity couldn't be merely proud; he would have to be irrational to the point if insanity, and those who are insane cannot rightly be held responsible for what they do. I find that to be a considerable weakness in the Christian narrative of the origin of evil.

 

(Of course, all of this becomes moot when you remember that the name rendered in Christian Bibles as "Lucifer" was actually Isaiah's nickname for Nebuchadnezzar.)

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There are great videos on youtube about the evolution of Satan in the bible.

 

Anyone got the links handy?

 

I know Aron Ra has one.

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The Wikipedia article is pretty good.  The satan of the book of Job, in particular, is drastically different from what people think today.  More making it up as you go along.

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This tree as deserves the proper response, Satan was intelligent, but still not omniscient or all knowing or all wise. Was he wiser then any of us, yes, was he wise to the point of being infallible, no. Pride can make even he most intelligent people irrational or take irrational ideas. And being irrational doesn’t necessarily indicate insanity. Yes Isaiah is referring to the king of Babylon Nebuchadnezzar as the morning star however he is also figuratively referring to a more sinister persona behind the king, the Bible constantly does this in many places by mentioning characteristics of a thing, person, or place that refers to something other then what the text is addressing at the specific time. Also just some additional information Christians didn’t invent the idea of fallen angels, this idea goes back to second temple Judaism as we see in the book of Enoch which mentions fallen angels. Also if anything the Satan of Job is more like be Christian Satan then the Jewish Satan who is an angel with no free will under God’s command. We see in his pride he challenges God that he would tempt his best servant Job into sin and would force him to reject God, this obviously doesn’t sound like someone with no free will or a servant infact, yes Satan requires God’s permission to preform what ever he wishes to preform, but he serves his own desires and goals. Such as challenging God using Job.

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2 hours ago, Masihi said:

Was he wiser then any of us, yes,

Interesting that god would still hold us accountable for being tricked by him.

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54 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Interesting that god would still hold us accountable for being tricked by him.

Who says God holds us all personally responsible? However we do suffer the consequences of what are parents did, the difference between us and Satan is since we in our ignorance sinned he has chosen to redeem us instead of letting us suffer eternally in separation from him as the source of all life, while Satan’s fate is eternal destruction and so would ours be if God willed it, however God in his love did the opposite due to he himself being eternal love. Satan was wiser then any of us, however his pride overcame his wisdom, his only goal is to take as many of us with him as possible as deep down he knows how his fate will truly end.

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4 hours ago, Masihi said:

Pride can make even he most intelligent people irrational or take irrational ideas. And being irrational doesn’t necessarily indicate insanity. 

If even humans are intelligent enough to understand omnipotence, not even humans can wilfully oppose omnipotence without being in a deranged state of mind. How much more deranged, then, a wiser and more intelligent angel would have to be.

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36 minutes ago, Moonobserver said:

If even humans are intelligent enough to understand omnipotence, not even humans can wilfully oppose omnipotence without being in a deranged state of mind. How much more deranged, then, a wiser and more intelligent angel would have to be.

Only we can’t even grab a basic understanding of omnipotence much less fully understand it,  neither can Satan who is fallible in mind and knowledge just as we are, only the omnipotent can fully understand omnipotent, everything non omnipotent is naturally ignorant of how omnipotence truly works. 

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4 hours ago, Masihi said:

Who says God holds us all personally responsible?

The bible.

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All of this focus on devils and angels and ancient characters makes the Bible sound like a comic book.

 

Also all of the focus on maintaining a lack of self-confidence and non-questioning of the doctrine makes Christianity sound more and more like the typical cult.

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9 hours ago, Masihi said:

We see in his pride he challenges God that he would tempt his best servant Job into sin and would force him to reject God, this obviously doesn’t sound like someone with no free will or a servant infact, yes Satan requires God’s permission to preform what ever he wishes to preform, but he serves his own desires and goals. Such as challenging God using Job.

     Ha ha.  So stupid.  All the best rebels and rebellions ask for, no require, permission from those from whom they rebel. 😆

 

     Sounds like a patsy to me.

 

          mwc

 

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15 minutes ago, mwc said:

     Ha ha.  So stupid.  All the best rebels and rebellions ask for, no require, permission from those from whom they rebel. 😆

 

     Sounds like a patsy to me.

 

          mwc

 

Permission in the sense God allows the rebellion to take place, God allows Satan to do what he does so long as it fits into God’s will and plans and not more. A ruler may let a rebellion take place and allow it to continue if it serves a specific purpose.

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1 hour ago, MOHO said:

All of this focus on devils and angels and ancient characters makes the Bible sound like a comic book.

 

Also all of the focus on maintaining a lack of self-confidence and non-questioning of the doctrine makes Christianity sound more and more like the typical cult.

If Christianity encouraged no questioning of doctrine, then why make ecumenical councils where doctrine would be debated on freely by heretics and Orthodox and Orthodoxy defined, why have Church Fathers, why even have apologetics if you can’t question faith, apologetics itself requires one too ask questions of his faith. On the contrary cults have no formally defined doctrines like in Christianity or Islam, are very secretive, even restricting information from members, keeps non believers out, exploits its members, and can’t have anything close to a ecumenical Council or talk about doctrinal issues.

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1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The bible.

Where does it say we’re all personally responsible for our parents sins? Also very nice of you to ignore the rest of the post and only deal with the issue which you thought you could pick at.

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3 minutes ago, Masihi said:

Permission in the sense God allows the rebellion to take place, God allows Satan to do what he does so long as it fits into God’s will and plans and not more. A ruler may let a rebellion take place and allow it to continue if it serves a specific purpose.

     So stupid.

 

     God (to Satan):  A rebellion?  I'll allow it!

     God (to Moses):  A cheeseburger?  NO FUCKING WAY!

 

     So so sooooo stupid!

 

     🤣

 

          mwc

 

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29 minutes ago, mwc said:

     So stupid.

 

     God (to Satan):  A rebellion?  I'll allow it!

     God (to Moses):  A cheeseburger?  NO FUCKING WAY!

 

     So so sooooo stupid!

 

     🤣

 

          mwc

 

The words you wrote no where took place, also it’s pretty much showing your immaturity and your lack of a proper response to what I wrote. 

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43 minutes ago, Masihi said:

If Christianity encouraged no questioning of doctrine, then why make ecumenical councils where doctrine would be debated on freely by heretics and Orthodox and Orthodoxy defined, why have Church Fathers, why even have apologetics if you can’t question faith, apologetics itself requires one too ask questions of his faith. On the contrary cults have no formally defined doctrines like in Christianity or Islam, are very secretive, even restricting information from members, keeps non believers out, exploits its members, and can’t have anything close to a ecumenical Council or talk about doctrinal issues.

Perhaps some churches allow some questioning - not in MY house. This is forboten! But I question anyway in hopes of prompting the fundy fams to do same.

Why are the scriptures such that there is such a lack of clarity that prompts the questioning. Don't you think that the supposed work of the creator of the universe would be clear?

 

I did press some questions to one of the pastors at my wife's church when I was attending. He could answer none of them of them reasonably, insulted my ability to read and understand what I was reading, then told me I just had to have faith.

 

Sounds like cult-speak to me, my friend!

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15 minutes ago, Masihi said:

The words you wrote no where took place, also it’s pretty much showing your immaturity and your lack of a proper response to what I wrote. 

     God (and the devil for that matter) has never uttered any words.  They're all made up (them along with their words).  My fan-fiction is just as valid as the rest.

 

     Does the devil, or his fellow rebels, have full autonomy in his rebellion?  Could the devil have rebelled if god said had said "no?"

 

          mwc

 

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5 hours ago, Masihi said:

Only we can’t even grab a basic understanding of omnipotence much less fully understand it,  neither can Satan who is fallible in mind and knowledge just as we are, only the omnipotent can fully understand omnipotent, everything non omnipotent is naturally ignorant of how omnipotence truly works. 

Omnipotence has the power to bring all things into being by simply commanding them to exist. All things are held in existence by  the omnipotent will and can be swept out of existence by the slightest effort of that will.

 

That's a fair assessment of omnipotence, isn't it? And I'm only human.

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57 minutes ago, MOHO said:

Perhaps some churches allow some questioning - not in MY house. This is forboten! But I question anyway in hopes of prompting the fundy fams to do same.

Why are the scriptures such that there is such a lack of clarity that prompts the questioning. Don't you think that the supposed work of the creator of the universe would be clear?

 

I did press some questions to one of the pastors at my wife's church when I was attending. He could answer none of them of them reasonably, insulted my ability to read and understand what I was reading, then told me I just had to have faith.

 

Sounds like cult-speak to me, my friend!

Perhaps the denomination which you belong too belong to acts cult like, still not a characteristic of the historic church which had debated on doctrine, ecumenical councils and etc. Pretty much all experienced Christians I talked to online were happy to answer any questions I had on Christian forums. If Christianity forbids questioning then why do apologetics in the first place?

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37 minutes ago, Moonobserver said:

Omnipotence has the power to bring all things into being by simply commanding them to exist. All things are held in existence by  the omnipotent will and can be swept out of existence by the slightest effort of that will.

 

That's a fair assessment of omnipotence, isn't it? And I'm only human.

That’s the dictionary definition of omnipotence, I asked can you understand omnipotence and understand what it is to be omnipotent, do you know what it is like to know every detail of the universe in past, present, and future in every small detail with noting escaping your eternal intellect, or how an uncreated being can bring everything into existence from nothing in seconds, if you or any of us understood it we’d be able to explain how such a thing would be scientifically possible, when on a human level it isn’t. None of us can understand how such a thing works or how such a thing could be logically possible because it’s above human logic, thus nobody and nothing can understand omnipotence fully except the omnipotent itself.

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53 minutes ago, mwc said:

     God (and the devil for that matter) has never uttered any words.  They're all made up (them along with their words).  My fan-fiction is just as valid as the rest.

 

     Does the devil, or his fellow rebels, have full autonomy in his rebellion?  Could the devil have rebelled if god said had said "no?"

 

          mwc

 

By the way a creator is the best explanation for how fine tuned our universe is. Not to mention our world is so unique among millions of billions of trillions of infinite stars and galaxies which are lifeless and are too toxic to support life. As the conditions to support life are really really what I’d like to call nearly impossible, yet here we are not only existing, but doing quite well. So I would argue the existence of a creator is more logical then your ideas of there being no sort of creator what so ever. If God didn’t want the rebellion to happen, it wouldn’t have happened very simple, it isn’t rocket science.

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9 minutes ago, Masihi said:

By the way a creator is the best explanation for how fine tuned our universe is. Not to mention our world is so unique among millions of billions of trillions of infinite stars and galaxies which are lifeless and are too toxic to support life. As the conditions to support life are really really what I’d like to call nearly impossible, yet here we are not only existing, but doing quite well. So I would argue the existence of a creator is more logical then your ideas of there being no sort of creator what so ever. If God didn’t want the rebellion to happen, it wouldn’t have happened very simple, it isn’t rocket science.

 

It stands to reason that a creator would have to be even more complex and "fine tuned" than the universe so to conclude that a creator is responsible for it beggs the question "Who created the creator?" and on and on. Kinda like it's turtles all the way down, eh?

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14 minutes ago, Masihi said:

By the way a creator is the best explanation for how fine tuned our universe is.

 

No its not. It's merely a logical fallacy, the argument from incredulity and god of the gaps combined.

 

In order for a creator to be the best explanation you have to demonstrate the creator exists and can actually create. Just you saying so isn't going to cut it.

 

As it stands we don't know if a creator is even a possible explanation, let alone probable. Can you demonstrate that its even possible for a creator being to exist uncaused?

 

Like MOHO points who then created the creator if the universe is so complex to require a creator? If we follow your line of thought to its logical conclusion it goes thusly: The universe is so complex and fine tuned that it required a creator to create it. The creator therefore is complex and requires a creator. You end up in an infinite regress.

 

The assertion that the creator is uncaused, timeless, spaceless etc and therefore doesn't need explaining is just a bunk argument. You haven't answered the question of the creation of the universe, all you've done is push the explanation down the road and said well this doesn't need explaining.

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1 hour ago, Masihi said:

By the way a creator is the best explanation for how fine tuned our universe is. Not to mention our world is so unique among millions of billions of trillions of infinite stars and galaxies which are lifeless and are too toxic to support life. As the conditions to support life are really really what I’d like to call nearly impossible, yet here we are not only existing, but doing quite well. So I would argue the existence of a creator is more logical then your ideas of there being no sort of creator what so ever. If God didn’t want the rebellion to happen, it wouldn’t have happened very simple, it isn’t rocket science.

     No it's not.  You're making a lot of unfounded assertions here.

 

     The fine-tuned universe is a lot of garbage.

 

     There is nowhere that is more hostile to life than the universe.  Period.

 

     As to how many planets hold life?  As of now we know of one.  How many have we actually explored?  In person?  Just one.  With probes?  A handful around our star.  Beyond that?  Zero.  We've taken a peek and inferred some things with our telescopes but what that should tell you is there are billions of planets out there.  The odds of life existing other than our own is quite high.   Even if there is only one, just one, life form even similar to our own in intelligence in each galaxy.  That leaves billions of aliens.  Or are we the aliens?  I guess it's all perspective.  Billions of us alone, in our own galaxies, yet not actually alone.

 

     Keep in mind.  The universe is huge.  You believe that jesus flew up into heaven.  But heaven is some magical realm.  Because if he was to fly to a real place, even at the speed of light, he still hasn't left the Milky Way galaxy (and he's probably pretty darn cold by now).

 

     Anyhow, that aside, by your own admission god wanted the rebellion to happen.  Could Satan have not rebelled?  Does Satan have full autonomy?

 

          mwc

 

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