Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Bazz99

Is it actually impossible to reason with a devout christian?

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Moonobserver said:

Hitler was defeated. Mass murderers and con artists are caught. Evil does not invariably prevail. 

Evil does not invariably prevail?!! How so? Hitlers reign came to an end only after he inflicted immeasurable pain and death to millions. How did evil not prevail?!   I live in a town where there was a serial killer in the early 70s killing children. He was never caught. I've been to a country in Latin America where women and children and elderly living in rural areas are regularly abused and killed with no consequence because there is virtually no police presence. When the police are involved, they are easily bribed. You need only to study or travel slightly outside whatever physical and mental confines you live within to understand that happy endings are random . . . and certainly never guaranteed.

But let me guess . . . In order to make sense of a god that would allow this kind of shit through his masterful purpose for everyone, you have to believe that karma will come in the afterlife . . . Unless of course the evil culprit pulls a Ted Bundy . . . .confesses all sins and no matter how atrocious his earthly sins were, he (or she) is forgiven and there is no justice.

I remember as a kid my mom telling me the story of a Nazi who came to know Christ - of course AFTER he murdered who knows how many Jews. All those unsaved Jews were murdered and then went straight to hell because, afterall, they didnt believe Jesus Christ was their lord and savior. But the Nazi guard,  well he bypassed hell. I couldn't make sense of this as a child. Tell me, how does this make sense to a Christian?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, freshstart said:

Evil does not invariably prevail?!! How so? Hitlers reign came to an end only after he inflicted immeasurable pain and death to millions. How did evil not prevail?!   I live in a town where there was a serial killer in the early 70s killing children. He was never caught. I've been to a country in Latin America where women and children and elderly living in rural areas are regularly abused and killed with no consequence because there is virtually no police presence. When the police are involved, they are easily bribed. You need only to study or travel slightly outside whatever physical and mental confines you live within to understand that happy endings are random . . . and certainly never guaranteed.

But let me guess . . . In order to make sense of a god that would allow this kind of shit through his masterful purpose for everyone, you have to believe that karma will come in the afterlife . . . Unless of course the evil culprit pulls a Ted Bundy . . . .confesses all sins and no matter how atrocious his earthly sins were, he (or she) is forgiven and there is no justice.

I remember as a kid my mom telling me the story of a Nazi who came to know Christ - of course AFTER he murdered who knows how many Jews. All those unsaved Jews were murdered and then went straight to hell because, afterall, they didnt believe Jesus Christ was their lord and savior. But the Nazi guard,  well he bypassed hell. I couldn't make sense of this as a child. Tell me, how does this make sense to a Christian?

If you're expecting a Biblical perspective from me, you haven't seen many of my posts. 

 

Happy endings may not be guaranteed, but they're far from random. That being said, I'm glad I don't live in your world, where nothing good ever happens. I've seen people I love go through unspeakable tragedy----even been through some myself----but you know what? I've seen them come through it with courage and wisdom. And for your badly-needed information, I've done my share of traveling. I've personally MET Holocaust survivors who lived to inspire a younger generation to make the future better than the past. THAT is good winning out over evil. I've MET former drug dealers who now inspire that same generation to make better choices. THAT is good winning out over evil. So don't try to win me over to your acrimonious nihilism. It's not worth buying. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oops!  You did it again, Edgarcito.  You skipped over my question.

 

Here it is again.  Please answer.  (I've put it in bold and upped the size of the font, so that you can see it more clearly.)

 

 

To follow up on what the RedneckProfessor has been driving at, please consider this.  Is it not your daily aim to be more and more Christ-like?  If so, then surely the things that are important to him are the things that should be important to you.  And that passage from Matthew 25 that I've quoted twice now clearly spells out that... the least of these brothers and sisters of mine... are VERY important to him.  

 

You'll notice that Jesus doesn't specifically mention ten year old girls being held in sexual slavery. 

 

So, do you think that because he doesn't speak about this specific instance, her suffering can't be very important to him?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/11/2019 at 8:50 AM, Edgarcito said:

There is no dark side otherwise?

 

Edit:  No narcissistic attitudes in science, in art, in sports...lol, come on man.

 

What does that matter? Of course there is. I didn't say that there wasn't. 

 

What I said is that I'm speaking about the dark side of christianity. The dark side of the christian god for that matter. Christians do allege that their god is "all good." Science, art and sports do not allege that their activities are "all good." So the comparison is nonsensical and a red hearing to our attempt at reasoning out the issue I am trying to reason out with you. 

 

We're talking about a god who orders the jews to go and put every man to the sword, kill all of the non virgins, but take the virgins (generally little girls) for their own: https://biblehub.com/numbers/31-18.htm

 

Quote

17So now, kill all the boys, as well as every woman who has had relations with a man, 18but spare for yourselves every girl who has never had relationswith a man. 19All of you who have killed a person or touched the dead are to remain outside the camp for seven days. On the third day and the seventh day you are to purify both yourselves and your captives.

 

This is just one obvious example. What I'm asking for is an explanation as to how this is "all good?" What do you think is inherently good about these orders? I'm sure that a creeper would enjoy these orders. But what gives? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Edgarcito, I'm still waiting for your answer to the question:  Is god all-loving?  Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

@Edgarcito, I'm still waiting for your answer to the question:  Is god all-loving?  Thanks.

Good question.  I expect God would wish for us a path congruent to finding eternal life....and even forgiveness if we don't.  I'm unclear about unrepentant choices we make given we understand the scenarios.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

What does that matter? Of course there is. I didn't say that there wasn't. 

 

What I said is that I'm speaking about the dark side of christianity. The dark side of the christian god for that matter. Christians do allege that their god is "all good." Science, art and sports do not allege that their activities are "all good." So the comparison is nonsensical and a red hearing to our attempt at reasoning out the issue I am trying to reason out with you. 

 

We're talking about a god who orders the jews to go and put every man to the sword, kill all of the non virgins, but take the virgins (generally little girls) for their own: https://biblehub.com/numbers/31-18.htm

 

 

This is just one obvious example. What I'm asking for is an explanation as to how this is "all good?" What do you think is inherently good about these orders? I'm sure that a creeper would enjoy these orders. But what gives? 

I don't know.....as I explained before, if I'm looking at only a part of a picture, then I only see that one piece.  Uncovered, the rest of the picture displays how something as you propose makes sense.  Stand alone, no.  Larger view, yes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't know.....as I explained before, if I'm looking at only a part of a picture, then I only see that one piece.  Uncovered, the rest of the picture displays how something as you propose makes sense.  Stand alone, no.  Larger view, yes. 

 

So larger, big picture your answer is yes, you agree with the claim that god is "all good." 

 

I will then analyze the claim in consideration of the biggest picture possible (which I've already brought up but I will remind you again). The biggest picture possible in this scenario is that god is all knowing, knows the past, present and future. You seem to be saying that in all of this bigger view, no matter how bad anything looks stand alone, it's ultimately good. So what is good about knowing in advance that rebellion and sin will arise for a finite period of time and that during that time, god will sanction rape and slavery, misogyny and more just name a few? This is the big picture.

 

What's good about allowing that to happen instead of stopping it from ever happening, for one thing? You can't say free will, because there's no free will in any of this when the big picture is taken in to account. He already knows every choice, before it's made. We got into this with a few Calvinist's recently. What you are calling free will, is actually deterministic and not free will when the big picture of an all knowing god is taken into account. Lucifer had no real free will in this light. It was deterministic that he would rebel, deterministic that 1/3 of the angels would fall, and deterministic that Adam and Eve would fall to temptation in Eden according to the all knowing claim. 

 

The big picture is actually where we need to be focused, I agree 100% 

 

The problem you're facing here with us is that any "all" claim attached to god, will necessarily be found in contradiction with respect to some other aspect of the bible. The bronze age mythologizer's who crafted these tales were limited in scope and show a very poor ability to think their own claims all the way through. When joe average christian follows suit and doesn't think their claims all the way through either, the claims continue from one generation to the next unchecked and out of focus. Look what happens when the focus is adjusted. A predicament arises.

 

This is a tell tale sign that we're dealing in terms of a man made religion and claims that are limited to the range and scope of thinking of people thousands of years ago. Narcissistic religious authorities whose personalities become transparent when analyzed for content. Men, grasping at the idea of a god, not so much a god informing the men as is claimed. 

 

All knowing = many contradictions.

All loving = many contradictions. 

All good = many contradictions.

All present = many contradictions. 

 

Maybe you can begin to see the point a little clearer now? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To anyone involved in or just reading this thread, I'd just like to draw a conclusion about this thread.  It struck me as I was re-reading from the start...

 

I mean has anyone here ever successfully reasoned with a evangelical christian? Is it simply an impossible task im wasting my time with? Or can it be done?

 

...that because we now have ten pages to look at, its now possible to draw a conclusion.  So, here it is.  I hope you find it interesting.

 

1.  There is ample evidence in this thread that the Christian Edgarcito does employ reason in his thinking.

2.  Which raises the possibility that a successful, reasoned dialogue with a Christian is not an impossible task, isn't a waste of time and can be done.

3.  However, there seems to be a caveat to that possibility.   If two people are both employing reason in their dialogue, for their dialogue to be both successful and reasoned, there is an additional requirement that both of them have to fulfill.  

4.  Both parties must choose to be 'reasonable' to each other.  That is, both parties must agree to freely and honestly answer each others questions, without evasion, without equivocation and without deflection.

5.  Unless both parties willingly fulfill this obligation, a successfully reasoned dialogue cannot happen.  Instead reason will be employed to evade questions, to equivocate and to deflect questions.  

6.  When reason is employed like this, honest dialogue ceases.

7.  So, ten pages into this thread, I conclude the following. 

It is possible to successfully reason with a devout Christian - but for that to happen they must first choose to be 'reasonable' and agree to answer any and all questions without evasion, without equivocation and without deflection.  If they do not agree to this simple condition, then they will probably use their reason to behave 'unreasonably'.  They will evade difficult questions, equivocate when it suits them and deflect what they what to avoid facing up to.

8. On the basis of the content of this thread, I'm reasonably confident of my conclusion.

9. But the main cause of my confidence about this conclusion is that these things; evasion, equivocation and deflection, are exactly what I used to do when I was a devout Christian. 

10. This 'unreasonable' conduct is symptomatic of Christianity, because the 'Prime Directive' of that belief system isn't to honestly face up to difficult questions, but to preserve and defend it at all costs.  Even though doing so requires 'unreasonable' behaviour and dishonesty.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, WalterP said:

To anyone involved in or just reading this thread, I'd just like to draw a conclusion about this thread.  It struck me as I was re-reading from the start...

 

I mean has anyone here ever successfully reasoned with a evangelical christian? Is it simply an impossible task im wasting my time with? Or can it be done?

 

...that because we now have ten pages to look at, its now possible to draw a conclusion.  So, here it is.  I hope you find it interesting.

 

1.  There is ample evidence in this thread that the Christian Edgarcito does employ reason in his thinking.

2.  Which raises the possibility that a successful, reasoned dialogue with a Christian is not an impossible task, isn't a waste of time and can be done.

3.  However, there seems to be a caveat to that possibility.   If two people are both employing reason in their dialogue, for their dialogue to be both successful and reasoned, there is an additional requirement that both of them have to fulfill.  

4.  Both parties must choose to be 'reasonable' to each other.  That is, both parties must agree to freely and honestly answer each others questions, without evasion, without equivocation and without deflection.

5.  Unless both parties willingly fulfill this obligation, a successfully reasoned dialogue cannot happen.  Instead reason will be employed to evade questions, to equivocate and to deflect questions.  

6.  When reason is employed like this, honest dialogue ceases.

7.  So, ten pages into this thread, I conclude the following. 

It is possible to successfully reason with a devout Christian - but for that to happen they must first choose to be 'reasonable' and agree to answer any and all questions without evasion, without equivocation and without deflection.  If they do not agree to this simple condition, then they will probably use their reason to behave 'unreasonably'.  They will evade difficult questions, equivocate when it suits them and deflect what they what to avoid facing up to.

8. On the basis of the content of this thread, I'm reasonably confident of my conclusion.

9. But the main cause of my confidence about this conclusion is that these things; evasion, equivocation and deflection, are exactly what I used to do when I was a devout Christian. 

10. This 'unreasonable' conduct is symptomatic of Christianity, because the 'Prime Directive' of that belief system isn't to honestly face up to difficult questions, but to preserve and defend it at all costs.  Even though doing so requires 'unreasonable' behaviour and dishonesty.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

The problem is Walter....you would wish that I form a version of reason, your results, based on the observable evidence.....  You are more than welcome to find results within those limitations.  You then seem to assign evasion, equivocation, and deflection to parameters out of our present ability to investigate/measure. 

 

If you believe we are at our finite capability to discover, just say so.  Thx.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

So larger, big picture your answer is yes, you agree with the claim that god is "all good." 

 

I will then analyze the claim in consideration of the biggest picture possible (which I've already brought up but I will remind you again). The biggest picture possible in this scenario is that god is all knowing, knows the past, present and future. You seem to be saying that in all of this bigger view, no matter how bad anything looks stand alone, it's ultimately good. So what is good about knowing in advance that rebellion and sin will arise for a finite period of time and that during that time, god will sanction rape and slavery, misogyny and more just name a few? This is the big picture.

 

What's good about allowing that to happen instead of stopping it from ever happening, for one thing? You can't say free will, because there's no free will in any of this when the big picture is taken in to account. He already knows every choice, before it's made. We got into this with a few Calvinist's recently. What you are calling free will, is actually deterministic and not free will when the big picture of an all knowing god is taken into account. Lucifer had no real free will in this light. It was deterministic that he would rebel, deterministic that 1/3 of the angels would fall, and deterministic that Adam and Eve would fall to temptation in Eden according to the all knowing claim. 

 

The big picture is actually where we need to be focused, I agree 100% 

 

The problem you're facing here with us is that any "all" claim attached to god, will necessarily be found in contradiction with respect to some other aspect of the bible. The bronze age mythologizer's who crafted these tales were limited in scope and show a very poor ability to think their own claims all the way through. When joe average christian follows suit and doesn't think their claims all the way through either, the claims continue from one generation to the next unchecked and out of focus. Look what happens when the focus is adjusted. A predicament arises.

 

This is a tell tale sign that we're dealing in terms of a man made religion and claims that are limited to the range and scope of thinking of people thousands of years ago. Narcissistic religious authorities whose personalities become transparent when analyzed for content. Men, grasping at the idea of a god, not so much a god informing the men as is claimed. 

 

All knowing = many contradictions.

All loving = many contradictions. 

All good = many contradictions.

All present = many contradictions. 

 

Maybe you can begin to see the point a little clearer now? 

I do.  Thanks for the effort to describe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Good question.  I expect God would wish for us a path congruent to finding eternal life....and even forgiveness if we don't.  I'm unclear about unrepentant choices we make given we understand the scenarios.

That's nice.  But is god all-loving?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

That's nice.  But is god all-loving?

You read the first three words of my response?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You read the first three words of my response?

"Good question.  I..."

 

So, is god all-loving?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

"Good question.  I..."

 

So, is god all-loving?

I don't know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't know.

This Christian at least declares they don't know. The kind I know would declare with some twisted logic that that girl being raped repeatedly serves some purpose of god's greater plan, which we simply aren't aware of. And that questioning gods will or ways is a sin. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

The problem is Walter....you would wish that I form a version of reason, your results, based on the observable evidence.....  You are more than welcome to find results within those limitations.  You then seem to assign evasion, equivocation, and deflection to parameters out of our present ability to investigate/measure. 

 

If you believe we are at our finite capability to discover, just say so.  Thx.    

 

Your reply is a good worked example of the kind of evasion I mentioned earlier, Edgarcito.

 

I have not asked you questions that were outside of your present ability to investigate or measure.  For example, when I asked you if the suffering of that ten year old sexual slave was important to Jesus, you could have easily answered, 'Yes, it is.' 

 

There was very little you had to measure and investigate, because the answer was written down for you in the Matthew quote I cited.  Also, since you are clearly a devout Christian and have personally known Jesus as your saviour and lord and friend for many years, you should KNOW IN YOUR HEART that her suffering is important to him.  In just the same way that I know in my heart what's important to my close friends.  

 

You have no excuse to claim that the answer to my question was beyond your ability to investigate, measure of know.  However, the real reason why you've carefully evaded giving that all-too-clear answer is because you know that my next question will be this.

 

"Edgarcito, since you admit that the suffering of that little girl is important to Jesus, if you really want to become more like him, why isn't it important to you?"

 

In this thread you've dodged, evaded, wriggled and done all that you can to avoid being put on the spot like that.  

 

Isn't that so?

 

Walter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't know.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.  1 John 4

 

Assuming this is one of those places where the bible is complete, and can thus be used as evidence, does the bible say that god is love?  And from this scripture and many others like it, does christian doctrine teach that god is all-loving?

 

As an honest answer, "I don't know" generally works; as a dodge, not so much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.  1 John 4

 

Assuming this is one of those places where the bible is complete, and can thus be used as evidence, does the bible say that god is love?  And from this scripture and many others like it, does christian doctrine teach that god is all-loving?

 

As an honest answer, "I don't know" generally works; as a dodge, not so much.

God is love.  God could be some other aspect/attribute as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

God is love.  God could be some other aspect/attribute as well.

Like what?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Like what?

I have an idea please.....instead of you leading me down some path in which to make your point, why don't you go ahead and make it so we might save time and I become less frustrated.  At my age, I might die before we get there.

 

Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I have an idea please.....instead of you leading me down some path in which to make your point, why don't you go ahead and make it so we might save time and I become less frustrated.  At my age, I might die before we get there.

 

Thanks.

If you're worried about how much time this is taking, I'd recommend not dodging questions as often as you have been.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If you're worried about how much time this is taking, I'd recommend not dodging questions as often as you have been.

 

Was thinking this myself. The failure to just answer a simple question with a straight answer is a typical evasive ploy. As much as I like Edgarcito and efforts to converse here, some of the evasion is just frustrating.

 

There's really only three answers to the question, and can be given supporting reasons. Yes, No, or I don't know. (We finally got an I don't know after much back and forth)

 

My question is why would you worship something that is not all loving, or that you didn't know that it was all loving. Sure God might exist, but he could be a total dick, (As the bible shows) in which case why worship him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...and Edgarcito is still dodging and evading questions which any devout Christian should easily be able to answer.

 

He falls back on metaphor, mystery, incompleteness and things about god he claims he cannot know, cannot measure and cannot investigate.

 

But as any devout Christian knows (and as we used to know) the answers to these questions are easy.

 

Isn't that so, Edgarcito?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.