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Is it actually impossible to reason with a devout christian?

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1 hour ago, WalterP said:

...and Edgarcito is still dodging and evading questions which any devout Christian should easily be able to answer.

 

He falls back on metaphor, mystery, incompleteness and things about god he claims he cannot know, cannot measure and cannot investigate.

 

But as any devout Christian knows (and as we used to know) the answers to these questions are easy.

 

Isn't that so, Edgarcito?

Yes, so why are you asking.

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3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Like what?

Well?

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2 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Was thinking this myself. The failure to just answer a simple question with a straight answer is a typical evasive ploy. As much as I like Edgarcito and efforts to converse here, some of the evasion is just frustrating.

 

There's really only three answers to the question, and can be given supporting reasons. Yes, No, or I don't know. (We finally got an I don't know after much back and forth)

 

My question is why would you worship something that is not all loving, or that you didn't know that it was all loving. Sure God might exist, but he could be a total dick, (As the bible shows) in which case why worship him?

It just seems as if a few of you are setting snares rather than discussing.  I don't like that attitude and don't really care to visit when I believe this to be the case.....mostly the Redneck Professor and Walter.  The rest of you seem mostly free of this. Maybe it's just me. 

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1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Well?

Why do you ask this..... Love is an attribute of God.  Given everything is spoken into existence by God, doesn't that leave the rest of the things we observe as God's attributes?   You seem bitter.  Are you bitter?

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18 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Why do you ask this..... Love is an attribute of God.  Given everything is spoken into existence by God, doesn't that leave the rest of the things we observe as God's attributes?   You seem bitter.  Are you bitter?

Why do you resort to asking if people are bitter? Does it have something to do with bitterness not being a "fruit of the spirit" or even a sin? 

Feelings aren't sin. He has as much permission to be as bitter as he likes. Yes plenty of us here are bitter about our experiences. That does not equate to being wrong or doing wrong. Or make asking valid questions wrong. 

As to you thinking @WalterP and @TheRedneckProfessor are on a mission here, you think that simply because they are asking the difficult questions, the ones that reveal the dark side to Christian beliefs. If you think it's all light and fluffiness and love you've obviously never gone through or asked the questions many here have. It's apparent you're resorting to evasion and it could be to protect yourself. 

This is the Lions Den. There's no kid gloves here. 

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38 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Why do you ask this..... Love is an attribute of God.  Given everything is spoken into existence by God, doesn't that leave the rest of the things we observe as God's attributes?   You seem bitter.  Are you bitter?

Leaving aside that not everything we observe was spoken into existence by god nor an attribute of god, tell me something that god is besides love. 

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14 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Why do you resort to asking if people are bitter? Does it have something to do with bitterness not being a "fruit of the spirit" or even a sin? 

Feelings aren't sin. He has as much permission to be as bitter as he likes. Yes plenty of us here are bitter about our experiences. That does not equate to being wrong or doing wrong. Or make asking valid questions wrong. 

As to you thinking @WalterP and @TheRedneckProfessor are on a mission here, you think that simply because they are asking the difficult questions, the ones that reveal the dark side to Christian beliefs. If you think it's all light and fluffiness and love you've obviously never gone through or asked the questions many here have. It's apparent you're resorting to evasion and it could be to protect yourself. 

This is the Lions Den. There's no kid gloves here. 

Just seems the idea of the thread suggested Christians were to blame for lacking the ability to reason... yet you are justifying emotional responses?

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2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Just seems the idea of the thread suggested Christians were to blame for lacking the ability to reason... yet you are justifying emotional responses?

Having been a Christian myself I would say that Christians may very well have the ability to reason. We just have to give up reasoning and intellectual honesty in order to maintain and defend the faith, which is of course paramount and eclipses all else.

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

You seem bitter.  Are you bitter?

Not at all.

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Yes, so why are you asking.

 

The message Edgarcito replied to was this one.

 

...and Edgarcito is still dodging and evading questions which any devout Christian should easily be able to answer.

He falls back on metaphor, mystery, incompleteness and things about god he claims he cannot know, cannot measure and cannot investigate.

But as any devout Christian knows (and as we used to know) the answers to these questions are easy.

Isn't that so, Edgarcito?

 

So does he mean, 'Yes, I'm dodging and evading questions which any devout Christian should easily be able to answer.' ?

Or does he mean, 'Yes, I do fall back on metaphor, mystery, incompleteness and things about god I claim that I cannot know, cannot measure and cannot investigate.' ?

Or perhaps, 'Yes, any devout Christian knows the answers to these questions are easy.' ?

Or, 'Yes, to all of the above.' ?

 

Rather than discussing openly and honestly, he has set a snare for me, trying to catch me out by carefully being unclear about just what he's saying 'Yes' to.   Proof positive that he doesn't lack the ability to reason.  But, if he can reason as well as this, what's stopping him giving us clear and honest answers to our simple and direct questions?  Such as...

 

"Do you think that the suffering of that ten year old sex slave is unimportant to Jesus, Edgarcito?"

 

A simple and direct question, well within your capacity to understand and which the bible gives you the answer to.  

 

Well?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Just seems the idea of the thread suggested Christians were to blame for lacking the ability to reason... yet you are justifying emotional responses?

Please quote said emotional responses. 

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6 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Please quote said emotional responses. 

 

Hello TruthSeeker0.  :)

 

Well played!  Edgarcito now needs to make good on his accusation.

 

The accusation that some of us are being 'emotional' in this thread.  While I can't speak for anyone else, I can respond (unemotionally) to his accusation.  For many pages now, I've been trying to drill down through his layers of evasion, metaphor, deflection and delay, to get down to the honesty that I hope lies beneath.  This can't be done emotionally, but requires me to use self-control, self-discipline and logic. These calm and collected qualities are the very opposite of the emotionalism that he claims some of us are showing. 

 

I desire nothing but open and honest discourse with Edgarcito. 

 

If I am feeling any emotion at this moment, its a mixture of sadness and embarrassment.  Sadness, because he consistently chooses not to meet me on the level playing field of honest debate.  Embarrassment, because many years ago I used to be just like him and I can easily recognize what he is doing here and why he is doing it.  Nowadays I cringe when I remember just how shamelessly dishonest I was to myself and to everyone else.  It's a relief to have those days safely behind me.

 

Good on you for holding him to account, TruthSeeker0. 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

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@Edgarcito, perhaps my question was too vague; allow me to simplify.  You said that god is love, but may be other attributes as well.  From the following list, please pick which attributes god could be:

Patient

Treacherous

Kind

Strong 

Dishonest

Sympathetic

Empathetic

Plain Pathetic

Old

Wise

Drunk

Vengeful

Boring

Sarcastic

Judgemental

Serene

 

You understand I can't get around to making my point until I have the complete picture.  Thanks.

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55 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

@Edgarcito, perhaps my question was too vague; allow me to simplify.  You said that god is love, but may be other attributes as well.  From the following list, please pick which attributes god could be:

Patient

Treacherous

Kind

Strong 

Dishonest

Sympathetic

Empathetic

Plain Pathetic

Old

Wise

Drunk

Vengeful

Boring

Sarcastic

Judgemental

Serene

 

You understand I can't get around to making my point until I have the complete picture.  Thanks.

I think the manifestation of God's creation holds all of these.

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17 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

He has as much permission to be as bitter as he likes.

Isn't this emotional justification?

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5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Isn't this emotional justification?

 

Isn't evading simple and direct questions about your faith an emotionally-driven response on your part, Edgarcito?

 

The emotion of fear, perhaps?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

I think the manifestation of God's creation holds all of these.

That's nice.  What about god?  Which of these attributes describe god?

 

(Hint: not god's creation)

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1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

That's nice.  What about god?  Which of these attributes describe god?

 

(Hint: not god's creation)

Good question.  I'm somewhat a pantheist....stuck between God is separate and God is everything, including me.  That help any. 

 

Edit: or do you need me to connect the dots between my statement and your questions.

 

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7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Good question.  I'm somewhat a pantheist....stuck between God is separate and God is everything, including me.  That help any. 

 

Edit: or do you need me to connect the dots between my statement and your questions.

 

 

I think Pantheism is a cool idea. I talked to someone calling himself a pantheist. I said, what can a God do according to pantheism? He said pantheists, like religious people, have many different beliefs. He said: for me as a pantheist God can only do those things that are permitted by nature. The meaning of this is that he equates God with the all of nature. God would have no knowledge or consciousness, and only the powers of nature. So for him he could call himself an atheist or pantheist depending upon his preferred definition of a pantheist. 

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2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Good question.  I'm somewhat a pantheist....stuck between God is separate and God is everything, including me.  That help any. 

 

Edit: or do you need me to connect the dots between my statement and your questions.

 

 

If you are 'somewhat pantheist' are you then also Christian? Under standard Christian doctrine God is generally defined as a separate entity who created the universe, not God is simply everything. We already have a word for everything and that's Universe. So why call it God? We are part of the universe, but the universe isn't me. The distinction seems pointless. If God is everything including me, why bother with such distinctions?

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3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Good question.  I'm somewhat a pantheist....stuck between God is separate and God is everything, including me.  That help any. 

 

Edit: or do you need me to connect the dots between my statement and your questions.

 

Where would the ten-year-old sex slave fit into the everything of god?

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The hard questions are hard. :die:

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12 minutes ago, florduh said:

The hard questions are hard. :die:

 

...and even after 11 pages  of asking, they aren't being answered.

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Can Christianity and Pantheism be reconciled?

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37 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Where would the ten-year-old sex slave fit into the everything of god?

One point at least must be ceded to Christianity: Christians believe in a deity who knows what it is to suffer. In the image of Christ on the cross, Christians see a god who isn't distant from human suffering but is, rather, to be found right in the middle of it. It's a powerful image, and a powerfully meaningful and comforting one to the Christian. Even if they can't end suffering, they find God in it with them.

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