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Is it actually impossible to reason with a devout christian?

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46 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I have an idea....why don't you just ask it directly rather than couch it in douchebaggery...  I believe this to be more reasonable.....the theme of the thread.

I'm not sure how to ask it any more directly than I have been; but I'll try.

 

Why was it so hard for you to admit that you're just making shit up as you go along?

 

Listen, son, this isn't rocket surgery, here.  Either you genuinely don't know, in which case, I can tell you (and you can deny it); or you do know but don't want to admit it to yourself.

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3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm not sure how to ask it any more directly than I have been; but I'll try.

 

Why was it so hard for you to admit that you're just making shit up as you go along?

 

Listen, son, this isn't rocket surgery, here.  Either you genuinely don't know, in which case, I can tell you (and you can deny it); or you do know but don't want to admit it to yourself.

I'd prefer you just tell me.  Thx.

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4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Walter, again, how would you know anything about my cares or concerns.  Where's your proof?

 

Edgarcito, again... (and I'll emphasize where the evidence lies.)

 

  On 10/16/2019 at 6:42 PM, Edgarcito said:

Walter, you have no idea what empathy level I possess.  Thanks.

 

Edgarcito,

 

Context is all important. I was talking about the level of empathy that you've displayed in this thread towards that ten year old sex slave. I've seen none from you. When the RedneckProfessor first asked you about that little girl, here's the level of empathy you displayed.

 

  On 10/10/2019 at 12:13 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said:
  On 10/10/2019 at 12:13 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

A ten-year-old girl gets sold into sexual slavery and is brutally raped multiple times every day; she kills herself a year later.  Is that the level/place god needed her to be to fit his plan?  

That would be the theory...

 

You washed your hands of her.

 

Image result for pontius pilate wash hands

Which is very curious, considering that you have children and I do not.  Even though you are the Christian and I'm not, even though you have children and I don't and even though you have faith and I do not, you've displayed a callous disregard for her, while I am very concerned about her.

 

A good worked example of how faith can be a bad thing if it corrodes a person's humanity.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Got it now?  

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3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I'd prefer you just tell me.  Thx.

Understandable.  When I was a believer, I wanted all the answers handed to me, too.

 

The reason it was so difficult to admit that you're just making shit up as you go along is because doing so leaves you vulnerable to the realisation that your entire worldview is predicated on myths, fairy tales, and flights of fancy.  Such realisation could very well bring about the destruction of everything you've ever thought you believed in, and the disillusionment that would come with it.  Making shit up is your subconscious mind's straw-grasping attempt at preventing that from happening.  It is, essentially, an unconscious fear; and your mind disguises it at "reason", "logic", "making the pieces fit".  It is, incidentally, the same reason you get angry and lash out when we persist in asking the hard questions; anger is another mask that fear wears.

 

I have been where you are now, as have most of the others on this website.  I remember quite well the tricks my own mind played on me.  It took 4 brutal years for me to finally see said tricks for what they are.  I would not wish the experience on anyone; and I certainly feel for you as you seem like a good person.  Nevertheless, accept it for what it is; or...

 

Cue denial in 3...2...

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2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Understandable.  When I was a believer, I wanted all the answers handed to me, too.

 

The reason it was so difficult to admit that you're just making shit up as you go along is because doing so leaves you vulnerable to the realisation that your entire worldview is predicated on myths, fairy tales, and flights of fancy.  Such realisation could very well bring about the destruction of everything you've ever thought you believed in, and the disillusionment that would come with it.  Making shit up is your subconscious mind's straw-grasping attempt at preventing that from happening.  It is, essentially, an unconscious fear; and your mind disguises it at "reason", "logic", "making the pieces fit".  It is, incidentally, the same reason you get angry and lash out when we persist in asking the hard questions; anger is another mask that fear wears.

 

I have been where you are now, as have most of the others on this website.  I remember quite well the tricks my own mind played on me.  It took 4 brutal years for me to finally see said tricks for what they are.  I would not wish the experience on anyone; and I certainly feel for you as you seem like a good person.  Nevertheless, accept it for what it is; or...

 

Cue denial in 3...2...

I appreciate the candid effort RNP, but I'm truthfully not fearful of a waning spiritual nature (I was years ago, but that's long gone).  I am able to ask questions outside of orthodoxy/fundamentalism not because of suppressed doubts and fears, but because of certainty.  I have an quasi-intellectual side and a spiritual side that are mostly separate and that aren't threated by the other.  Can walk into a church and have a completely different feeling than routine day to day life.  It's an easy separation for me.  I very much enjoy the speculation(s), putting the pieces together, in an effort to actually figure out the grand free will/reconcile the OT and NT God type dilemmas.  I enjoy it.  

 

I am however, weary of the church crowd.  They have turned out to be, in the end, a most disappointing bunch.....although I'm sure they think the same of me.

 

I'm not adverse to the standard Christian product....it has it's truly wonderful moments.....but even the Bible says put the milk down.

 

Thanks for the effort sir.

 

    

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10 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't think we should assume that it needs to fit together.  I think things that are more concrete make us feel more safe, that trust and faith make us feel more vulnerable.   We want to eat, to be safe, to be in control....see RNP. 

In control? God is in control in the xtian scenario. And with all the shit that goes down in this world, it's some kind of control lemme tell ya. Can't imagine feeling any more safe than with a being who sees/has some purpose in the rape of young girls. /End sarcasm

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4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

It is, incidentally, the same reason you get angry and lash out when we persist in asking the hard questions; anger is another mask that fear wears.

 

 

And a path to the dark side to boot!!!!!!

 

 
image.jpeg
 
 
 

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2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I am however, weary of the church crowd.  They have turned out to be, in the end, a most disappointing bunch.....although I'm sure they think the same of me.

 

I'm not adverse to the standard Christian product....it has it's truly wonderful moments.....but even the Bible says put the milk down.

 

We tend to get christian outliers who end up sticking around here for a while sometimes. Not the church crowd. Leary of organized religion for the most part. But of the opinion that they're still christian and enjoy trying to argue on behalf of it. Not us, not the church crowd, just somewhere in between. And who likely get a lot of flack from ex christians and the church crowd alike. 

 

Your god ideas are pretty much things that I've already thought of years ago, on my own. They arise from basically anyone trying to think through scenarios involving the possibility that pantheism might be how it really works, and then how that might then apply to christianity. But you're sort of in the make it up as you go along stage. What I did was follow each of these potential ideas down each rabbit hole until I discovered where they would each dead end. Seeing them all dead end, I moved on and never revisited these ideas.

 

I remember once thinking about framing the sin situation as a cancer within the body of god. God would eradicate the cancer, sin, from within himself, god being the all, the totality. It's all god, and yet god would be wanting to remove some cancerous aspect of himself, from within himself

 

This was something of a thought experiment to see where that reasoning could go. Then I proceeded to look at everything that I could find wrong with the proposal. First of all, the issue of "all knowing." Why allow such a cancer to arise within yourself to begin with? Especially when you have the "all power" to prevent any such thing from ever happening in the first place. And the nonsensical aspect of allowing it to happen anyways, or giving the cancer within yourself "free will" only to eradicate the cancer down the line after it's festered for a long, long time according to the experience of time? None of it adds up. 

 

I'm sure there's tons more wrong with the assertion. But that's enough to toss it aside from what I can tell. 

 

Do you check yourself like this, Edgarcito? 

 

 

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9 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Cue denial in 3...2...

 

6 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I appreciate the candid effort RNP, but I'm truthfully not fearful

Well, I won't belabor the point.

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You know what, folks?  The thought occurred to me that a good way to test the courage of Edgarcito's convictions would be to do the following.

 

1

Take the content of what the Redneckprofessor wrote on October 10.  'A ten-year-old girl gets sold into sexual slavery and is brutally raped multiple times every day; she kills herself a year later.  Is that the level/place god needed her to be to fit his plan?'

 

2.

And apply it to something that Edgarcito mentioned, later the same day.

'After raising children, I'm of the opinion that teaching through control seems to provoke more rebellion than anything....not necessarily a bad rebellion, just an "I want to do it myself" attitude.

 

He's raised children of his own.

 

3.

Frame the following question and see if he can answer it honestly.

'Edgarcito, at the age of ten, one of YOUR children is abducted and sold into sexual slavery and brutally raped (anally, if you only have sons) multiple times every day, he/she kills commits suicide a year later.  Is that the level/place god needed him/her to be to fit his plan?'

 

When asked about an anonymous child Edgarcito replied... 'That would be the theory...'

 

I wonder if he'd say the same if that were HIS child?

 

 

Well, Edgarcito?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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So this missing girl I know, several developments. Probably not raped. Looks like her dad has taken her out west towards Colorado or thereabouts. She contacted her mother and said that she's gone for good. She's alive. But doesn't want to come home. The father had kid napped her before and run to California, so this isn't left field. It looks like some time after the mother gained full custody around a year ago, the father probably began scheming up a plan. The girl prefers to live with the father because there's zero rules and she literally can do whatever she wants. Whatever the case, tough situation for her mother right now. 

 

To all of the prayer warriors on facebook, I would like to propose the same questions as the questions Edgarcito faces here. 

 

Why and WTF???

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1 hour ago, WalterP said:

You know what, folks?  The thought occurred to me that a good way to test the courage of Edgarcito's convictions would be to do the following.

 

1

Take the content of what the Redneckprofessor wrote on October 10.  'A ten-year-old girl gets sold into sexual slavery and is brutally raped multiple times every day; she kills herself a year later.  Is that the level/place god needed her to be to fit his plan?'

 

2.

And apply it to something that Edgarcito mentioned, later the same day.

'After raising children, I'm of the opinion that teaching through control seems to provoke more rebellion than anything....not necessarily a bad rebellion, just an "I want to do it myself" attitude.

 

He's raised children of his own.

 

3.

Frame the following question and see if he can answer it honestly.

'Edgarcito, at the age of ten, one of YOUR children is abducted and sold into sexual slavery and brutally raped (anally, if you only have sons) multiple times every day, he/she kills commits suicide a year later.  Is that the level/place god needed him/her to be to fit his plan?'

 

When asked about an anonymous child Edgarcito replied... 'That would be the theory...'

 

I wonder if he'd say the same if that were HIS child?

 

 

Well, Edgarcito?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What are the alternatives Walter....you raise children as well as you are able given your own inexperience.  Try to teach and protect them as well as possible.  What are you going to do, kill the offender?  It's a tragedy on all sides.  I don't want to call this a stupid question Walter....but pretty close sir.

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2 hours ago, WalterP said:

  Is that the level/place god needed him/her to be to fit his plan?'

 

33 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

What are the alternatives Walter....you raise children as well as you are able given your own inexperience.  Try to teach and protect them as well as possible.  What are you going to do, kill the offender?  It's a tragedy on all sides.  I don't want to call this a stupid question Walter....but pretty close sir.

Edgarcito. . . .did you read the question? The question did not ask what would a human do in response to a child being in this horrible situation.

The question asked, if God needed this child to be in this horrible situation (kidnapped, raped, and subsequent suicide) in order to fit his perfect plan. Clearly you are unable or unwilling to answer the question!  You are not even honest enough to say, "I don't know."

As far as I'm concerned the original question asked in this thread is answered. There is no reasoning with a devout Christian. I would further add that they are not capable of honesty, particularly if being honest makes them vulnerable.

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3 minutes ago, freshstart said:

 

Edgarcito. . . .did you read the question? The question did not ask what would a human do in response to a child being in this horrible situation.

The question asked, if God needed this child to be in this horrible situation (kidnapped, raped, and subsequent suicide) in order to fit his perfect plan. Clearly you are unable or unwilling to answer the question!  You are not even honest enough to say, "I don't know."

As far as I'm concerned the original question asked in this thread is answered. There is no reasoning with a devout Christian. I would further add that they are not capable of honesty, particularly if being honest makes them vulnerable.

FS... who knows?  Is the rapist to repent and be saved?  Do the parents become proactive or fade away?  You would want me to attempt an answer given the insurmountable number of variables.  

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Playing in the theist's sandbox.......

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4 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

Playing in the theist's sandbox.......

The non-theist can obviously prevent the scenario...and are more caring if it does occur.  

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

who knows?  Is the rapist to repent and be saved?  Do the parents become proactive or fade away?  You would want me to attempt an answer given the insurmountable number of variables.  

Again, no one is asking about any outcomes related to what humans choose to do or not do. The question is whether the circumstances of a little girl (who was kidnapped, brutally raped and then later commits suicide) were needed by god in order to fit into his perfect plan.

 

How about we make the answers to the question multiple choice:

A. Yes, god has a plan for everything. He knows what is best for us and ultimately whatever happens to us, good or bad, is part of god's perfect plan. Its unfortunate that this little child had to suffer, but god will explain his reasons one day . . . when we get to heaven.

B. No, god is merciful and just and loving. He would never want such abuse and misery to befall a small child of his. Any evil that happens to little children is because of Satan,  not God. This was not in god's original perfect plan. The perfect plan was for us to live in the Garden of Eden forever and ever.  But Satan (and man) ruined that perfect plan. Therefore God has allowed Satan to rule over the earth until Jesus returns again. God didn't want this child to suffer. Satan caused that, not god.

C. I don't know. It doesnt make sense that this level of suffering would be something that a loving god would ever actually want or allow. If he is all-knowing and all-powerful, why would he allow a little child to suffer like this?

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22 minutes ago, freshstart said:

Again, no one is asking about any outcomes related to what humans choose to do or not do. The question is whether the circumstances of a little girl (who was kidnapped, brutally raped and then later commits suicide) were needed by god in order to fit into his perfect plan.

 

How about we make the answers to the question multiple choice:

A. Yes, god has a plan for everything. He knows what is best for us and ultimately whatever happens to us, good or bad, is part of god's perfect plan. Its unfortunate that this little child had to suffer, but god will explain his reasons one day . . . when we get to heaven.

B. No, god is merciful and just and loving. He would never want such abuse and misery to befall a small child of his. Any evil that happens to little children is because of Satan,  not God. This was not in god's original perfect plan. The perfect plan was for us to live in the Garden of Eden forever and ever.  But Satan (and man) ruined that perfect plan. Therefore God has allowed Satan to rule over the earth until Jesus returns again. God didn't want this child to suffer. Satan caused that, not god.

C. I don't know. It doesnt make sense that this level of suffering would be something that a loving god would ever actually want or allow. If he is all-knowing and all-powerful, why would he allow a little child to suffer like this?

I'm going with A.

 

Edit:  I'm a little disappointed that you didn't infer A from my answer....

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5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm going with A.

 

Edit:  I'm a little disappointed that you didn't infer A from my answer....

 

So God is able to prevent evil, but unwilling to do so. Therefore he is malevolent.

 

If we applied this scenario to any other deity or entity with the power to prevent evil, but whom does not, we would call that entity evil.

 

The only entity that we ever give a free pass to is God.

 

 

@freshstart I don't think B can be an option for a god who is maximally powerful and thus able to prevent evil. In that option he is merely impotent at best. A rather weak excuse from Christians as the logical conclusion is that either 1) God is letting Satan do this, and therefore he is malevolent, or 2) He can't stop Satan and is therefore impotent. 

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10 hours ago, freshstart said:

How about we make the answers to the question multiple choice:

A. Yes, god has a plan for everything. He knows what is best for us and ultimately whatever happens to us, good or bad, is part of god's perfect plan. Its unfortunate that this little child had to suffer, but god will explain his reasons one day . . . when we get to heaven.

 

9 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm going with A.

 

Edit:  I'm a little disappointed that you didn't infer A from my answer....

 

You're going with the option that I've all but falsified several fold now?

 

There's nothing perfect about a plan of evident, demonstrable, self contradicting nonsense. And yet, that's what you reach for. Pretty UNREASONABLE, wouldn't you think Edgarcito? 

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26 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

 

You're going with the option that I've all but falsified several fold now?

 

There's nothing perfect about a plan of evident, demonstrable, self contradicting nonsense. And yet, that's what you reach for. Pretty UNREASONABLE, wouldn't you think Edgarcito? 

But he's not in denial, or anything.

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14 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

So this missing girl I know, several developments. Probably not raped. Looks like her dad has taken her out west towards Colorado or thereabouts. 

 

Not as bad as it might be then, fortunately.  This reminds me of something most people don’t realize: it’s actually rather rare for children to be abducted by strangers.  It’s almost always somebody related to the child somehow.  

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11 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm going with A.

 

Edit:  I'm a little disappointed that you didn't infer A from my answer....

 

Edgarcito,

 

I see that you called my question stupid and then deflected, asking me a counter-question.  Let's see if you can do any better if I repeat it for you and also spell out your options.

 

Edgarcito, at the age of ten, one of YOUR children is abducted and sold into sexual slavery and brutally raped (anally, if you only have sons) multiple times every day, he/she kills commits suicide a year later.  Is that the level/place god needed him/her to be to fit his plan?'

 

Your options are these.

 

1. Agree that your child's suffering is part of god's plan.  (This would make you a monster.  What parent would allow their own child endure such torment?)

 

2. Deny that their suffering is part of god's plan.  (This would make you a hypocrite.  The ten year old girl that you've already washed your hands of wasn't one of your children.)

 

3. Say that you don't know.  (This would mean contradicting your reply to Freshstart, that your child has to suffer according to god's plan.)

 

4. Refuse to answer. (This would mean that when it comes to your own flesh and blood, you don't have the courage of your convictions.)

 

Well?  

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5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

freshstart I don't think B can be an option for a god who is maximally powerful and thus able to prevent evil. In that option he is merely impotent at best. A rather weak excuse from Christians as the logical conclusion is that either 1) God is letting Satan do this, and therefore he is malevolent, or 2) He can't stop Satan and is therefore impotent. 

Agreed!

Except for option "C," the multiple choice answers I proposed were the exact answers I was given (in various ways) over and over again by Christians when I started asking questions as a kid about why my Jewish friends and family were going to hell and why god allowed [insert here any gut-wrenching tragedy you can think of].

Another favorite answer was "Our ways are not his ways."   To which I thought, no shit, we don't go around destroying all of humanity in a fit of anger (Genesis flood), we don't allow allow cruel and unreasonable punishment (in U.S. anyway) for crimes of any nature. We believe in rehabilitation, but god believes in eternal torture for anyone - even the average good guy- who just can't bring himself to believe in someone who won't show his damn face.

Meanwhile, my mother (who is known as  "prayer warrior") regularly talks about god answering her prayers which include things like getting a great parking spot or having the weather be beautiful for a certain event. If she wasn't 80 years old,  I would probably snap back with, "Really mom, god stopped the rain from happening, altered earth's weather patterns for a wedding just because YOU asked? Meanwhile the drought that has been going on for years in parts of Africa and all the people dying as a result . . .god won't alter the weather to save those folks? Oh and PS, they're going to hell after they die because they don't give a fuck about your God who clearly doesn't give a fuck about them."  . . . Yeah, thats the conversation I wanna have with her, but I keep this shit bottled up because, unlike her god, I actually have compassion and don't want to upset her.

Damn . . . Now I'm all worked up. I need to go workout now! LOL

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The "god as a loving father" idea is one of the main problems I have with christianity.  It simply doesn't work.  At all.  god allows things to happen to his children that I never would allow for my own.  And I felt that way even before I had kids.

 

If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!  Matthew 7:11

 

I would never allow one of my kids to be sold into sexual slavery and brutally raped on a daily basis.  But god does it without even a second thought; and not just one or two of his children, but tens of thousands of them.  And how many of those children have asked him to be delivered from their tribulation? 

 

YET HE HAS THE BALLS TO CALL ME EVIL!  Just who the hell does he think he is?  Not my father, that's for sure.

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