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Is it actually impossible to reason with a devout christian?


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2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If the goal of an omniscient god is to genuinely make himself understood, then consistency is the goal, specifically to prevent multiple (mis)interpretations.

I think we are misunderstanding each other.  I understand your point.  I am trying to convey that timing could be different for everyone to come to the same interpretation.

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Will a Baptist, in time, come to a Pentecostal interpretation? Will a Catholic eventually see the Protestant truth of the bible?

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

I think we are misunderstanding each other.  I understand your point.  I am trying to convey that timing could be different for everyone to come to the same interpretation.

It's taken nearly 2000 years for the catholic church to come to a correct interpretation of the scripture; and they still ain't done it.

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

I think we are misunderstanding each other.  I understand your point.  I am trying to convey that timing could be different for everyone to come to the same interpretation.

 

So are you saying that you believe that eventually all Christian denominations, sects, and independents will come to the same interpretation given time?

 

The 1st Baptist church might have the correct interpretation in 2018. The 2nd Baptist church comes to the same interpretation in 2019. The CoC has the same interpretation in 2025. The Catholics catch up when they do away with the Pope et al and come to the same interpretation in 3050.

 

Not that we've seen any religious groups have the same interpretation for any religion ever. There has always been competing interpretations in any religion.

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1 minute ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

So are you saying that you believe that eventually all Christian denominations, sects, and independents will come to the same interpretation given time?

 

The 1st Baptist church might have the correct interpretation in 2018. The 2nd Baptist church comes to the same interpretation in 2019. The CoC has the same interpretation in 2025. The Catholics catch up when they do away with the Pope et al and come to the same interpretation in 3050.

 

Not that we've seen any religious groups have the same interpretation for any religion ever. There has always been competing interpretations in any religion.

I'm saying that given a person's life span, God will take you to the exact level/place He needs you to be to fit His plan....that interpretation.  A partial understanding, yes.  A more complete understanding, yes.  And perhaps upon death, we will all see more clearly.  I might reach 60% understanding at my death while others may reach 30%, or 90% on the same scale.  The sum total of all those pieces, constantly dynamic, is part of the understanding God has.....just MY own take on things. 

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

I am trying to convey that timing could be different for everyone to come to the same interpretation.

What would be the point or value of that? It sounds more like a desperate excuse for the clusterfuck that is Christian theology.

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6 minutes ago, florduh said:

What would be the point or value of that? It sounds more like a desperate excuse for the clusterfuck that is Christian theology.

What's the point of nature the way it's set up...lot of things/parts/levels of development in play.  Some have called it beautiful, harmony, breathtaking, awe inspiring.  Do you see nature as a clusterfuck as well?

 

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Nature can very well be a clusterfuck. There is so much of randomness in nature, so many things that happen without our control - earthquakes, tsunamis, droughts, famines, floods - and these are just natural phenomena. Add to it human-made things or effects of human activities on nature. Add to it the effects of human activities on other species and beings. 

For someone who looks at things with a limited frame of view AND only when the vision is non-negative, would call nature as not a clusterfuck.

 

Maybe what you are attempting is is to streamline everything - everyone else's minds, thinking, actions, scenarios, positions, as per your scriptures. But things are always in a flux, always fluid, and ever-evolving. You may see it if you look back 2000 years when your scriptures and your society's dependence on it came about. Any attempt to bring everything in one vessel, a vessel which as per you is perfect, may not be possible or even desirable.

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39 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm saying that given a person's life span, God will take you to the exact level/place He needs you to be to fit His plan....that interpretation.  A partial understanding, yes.  A more complete understanding, yes.  And perhaps upon death, we will all see more clearly.  I might reach 60% understanding at my death while others may reach 30%, or 90% on the same scale.  The sum total of all those pieces, constantly dynamic, is part of the understanding God has.....just MY own take on things. 

Indeed this is your own take in things. Upon what biblical references do you base this interpretation and why should any Christian accept this as a valid "take on things.?" Sounds like more cobbled-together cafeteria style Christianity, trying to come up with a recipe for how God works. It always amazes me how Christians presume they might have even an inkling of how god thinks, given the mysteries and magnitude of his (presumable) creation.

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38 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

What's the point of nature the way it's set up...lot of things/parts/levels of development in play.  Some have called it beautiful, harmony, breathtaking, awe inspiring.  Do you see nature as a clusterfuck as well?

 

Christian theology and beliefs are as far from natural as is possible. They are of human invention and poorly executed at that. Your "argument" here is that given a few thousand more years the theology will probably work out.

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8 minutes ago, freshstart said:

Indeed this is your own take in things. Upon what biblical references do you base this interpretation and why should any Christian accept this as a valid "take on things.?" Sounds like more cobbled-together cafeteria style Christianity, trying to come up with a recipe for how God works. It always amazes me how Christians presume they might have even an inkling of how god thinks, given the mysteries and magnitude of his (presumable) creation.

I like 2 Peter 1:1-11  It seems like some die in Christ, on the journey while others become more finished, godly, loving.

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22 minutes ago, Karna said:

Nature can very well be a clusterfuck. There is so much of randomness in nature, so many things that happen without our control - earthquakes, tsunamis, droughts, famines, floods - and these are just natural phenomena. Add to it human-made things or effects of human activities on nature. Add to it the effects of human activities on other species and beings. 

For someone who looks at things with a limited frame of view AND only when the vision is non-negative, would call nature as not a clusterfuck.

 

Maybe what you are attempting is is to streamline everything - everyone else's minds, thinking, actions, scenarios, positions, as per your scriptures. But things are always in a flux, always fluid, and ever-evolving. You may see it if you look back 2000 years when your scriptures and your society's dependence on it came about. Any attempt to bring everything in one vessel, a vessel which as per you is perfect, may not be possible or even desirable.

Thanks, what I am attempting to do is discuss this stuff with people that don't mind asking the questions.  I get frowned upon at Sunday School.  To add, I wouldn't guess there is a lot of randomness in nature...but have never inquired.  I might certainly be wrong. 

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm saying that given a person's life span, God will take you to the exact level/place He needs you to be to fit His plan....that interpretation.  A partial understanding, yes.  A more complete understanding, yes.  And perhaps upon death, we will all see more clearly.  I might reach 60% understanding at my death while others may reach 30%, or 90% on the same scale.  The sum total of all those pieces, constantly dynamic, is part of the understanding God has.....just MY own take on things. 

 

Right - so that's your interpretation.

 

So if I die an atheist and have that understanding, is that where God wanted me? Because right now my understanding is that there is no God.

 

Perhaps upon death we won't see anything because it will be like before we were born, just... nothing, absolute nothing.

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3 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Right - so that's your interpretation.

 

So if I die an atheist and have that understanding, is that where God wanted me? Because right now my understanding is that there is no God.

 

Perhaps upon death we won't see anything because it will be like before we were born, just... nothing, absolute nothing.

Interesting dream I had several months after Dad died.  He was an atheist.  I've had dreams with relatives who have passed before....none had ever spoken that I remember.  But this dream....Dad comes back and sits at a table with me.  He had some other man with him that I didn't recognize.  Then he said something along the lines of "we are fortunate to have the Lamb".  Dream over.  It was kind of like you get to visit one person after you die.....go back once and give a message.  Very surprising actually.  Was it real?  I don't know.  Was it my own brain trying to help my Dad?  I don't know....possibly.

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

What's the point of nature the way it's set up...lot of things/parts/levels of development in play.  Some have called it beautiful, harmony, breathtaking, awe inspiring.  Do you see nature as a clusterfuck as well?

 

 

I observe you are relying on teleological thinking in your posts.  

 

Why?

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7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

The Professor just spoke to the ability of God.....that if God wished 47 people think the same thing, then 47 people would likely think the same thing.  I agree with that.  There are also the parts of the Bible that speak to each of us being unique, running a race.  I do not expect everyone to start the race the same nor finish the race the same, nor breathe, nor function, nor run the same, even if they are given the same fuel, the same Input.  Why we are created like this, I don't think I know. 

 

Edgarcito,

 

This is what the Redneck Prof actually said.

 

I have no idea why you should all have the same discernment at the same time, nor what it would accomplish.  That was not the point I was making.  

It seems to me, though, that there should be more consistency in interpretation, if an omniscient god were making a genuine effort to reveal himself.

 

When God reveals himself does he cause 47 people to think the same thing or does he give them the choice to think the same thing?  Your reply to the Professor seems to have God changing 47 minds by forcefully overriding their free will.  Is that what you actually meant?

 

With regard to your reply to me, you've couched it in a vague and metaphorical way.  A race is a nice piece of imagery and if it works for you, then I'm pleased for you.   However, in my long experience (twenty years) of Christianity I've found that believers usually revert to metaphors when they have no real and concrete answers to difficult questions.  But thank you for trying, anyway.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

What's the point of nature the way it's set up...lot of things/parts/levels of development in play.  Some have called it beautiful, harmony, breathtaking, awe inspiring.  Do you see nature as a clusterfuck as well?

 

 

Edgarcito,

 

I cannot speak for Florduh, but take it from me, nature is a total clusterfuck and we humans have only evolved and survived for this long because we have been e-x-t-r-e-m-e-l-y lucky.  

 

Yes, I know that certain Christian apologists try to argue that God finely-tuned and intelligently-designed the universe.  But ALL of these arguments rely upon a sly method of cheating.  I can explain where they cheat, if you'd like.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

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40 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

The one that says "we don't know" and need to rely on Him for the egregious error of ego....

That could mean anything to anybody... much like an interpretation.  

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3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm saying that given a person's life span, God will take you to the exact level/place He needs you to be to fit His plan....that interpretation. 

A ten-year-old girl gets sold into sexual slavery and is brutally raped multiple times every day; she kills herself a year later.  Is that the level/place god needed her to be to fit his plan?  

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22 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Well one would think that if the Christian theology is true, then what we observe should reflect God's design.

 

Thank you.  However, you did not answer my question.

 

I asked you why you use teleological thinking.

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