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Is it actually impossible to reason with a devout christian?

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1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

A ten-year-old girl gets sold into sexual slavery and is brutally raped multiple times every day; she kills herself a year later.  Is that the level/place god needed her to be to fit his plan?  

 

And further, if this is the level / place god needed her to fit his plan, what do we then make of such a plan? 

 

Let's see where trying to reason with a christian in real time will lead reading eyes, shall we @Edgarcito ? This sort of scenario happens all the time - it's observed all over the world. So it must fit into gods plan according to your theistic logic:

 

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Well one would think that if the Christian theology is true, then what we observe should reflect God's design.

 

Why would you endorse such a plan, by design @Edgarcito ?

 

 

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2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

A ten-year-old girl gets sold into sexual slavery and is brutally raped multiple times every day; she kills herself a year later.  Is that the level/place god needed her to be to fit his plan?  

That would be the theory...

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So to answer the question if it's impossible to reason with a Christian, I think this thread demonstrates the affirmative rather well.

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4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Interesting dream I had several months after Dad died.  He was an atheist.  I've had dreams with relatives who have passed before....none had ever spoken that I remember.  But this dream....Dad comes back and sits at a table with me.  He had some other man with him that I didn't recognize.  Then he said something along the lines of "we are fortunate to have the Lamb".  Dream over.  It was kind of like you get to visit one person after you die.....go back once and give a message.  Very surprising actually.  Was it real?  I don't know.  Was it my own brain trying to help my Dad?  I don't know....possibly.

 

Based on what we know about dreams, it was probably your brain trying to make sense of the fact that your father had passed away. And it's likely the entire dream was inside the confines of your brain chemistry - i.e. no external source actually imputing information into your brain.

 

You being Christian and him being atheist and your belief that some fate awaits humans after death, and one of the fates is either heaven or hell probably all contributed to your brain attempting to make sense of it all via a dream.

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14 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm saying that given a person's life span, God will take you to the exact level/place He needs you to be to fit His plan...

 

I know that is right, And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.Gen 6:3
 

13 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

He had some other man with him that I didn't recognize.

 

Did the other man have a badge 

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What kind of sick-ass motherfucker needs little girls being raped as part of his plan?

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13 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

 

Thank you.  However, you did not answer my question.

 

I asked you why you use teleological thinking.

Had a friend I used to visit with....he suggested our theology should match our experience.  Seems reasonable to me.  I respected his opinion.

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11 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

And further, if this is the level / place god needed her to fit his plan, what do we then make of such a plan? 

 

Let's see where trying to reason with a christian in real time will lead reading eyes, shall we @Edgarcito ? This sort of scenario happens all the time - it's observed all over the world. So it must fit into gods plan according to your theistic logic:

 

 

Why would you endorse such a plan, by design @Edgarcito ?

 

 

After raising children, I'm of the opinion that teaching through control seems to provoke more rebellion than anything....not necessarily a bad rebellion, just an "I want to do it myself" attitude.  Autonomy, victory over our lesser nature, seems rather satisfying.  But I expect the discussion will lead to why endow humans with these qualities to begin with.  And I suspect it's for that very reason, that when we do the inherently right thing, the thing we KNOW matches the Truth, in Spirit, it's powerful, and provokes us then to uphold that for future generations....and be simultaneously thankful.  I expect God would wish THAT over the other for His children. 

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15 hours ago, WalterP said:

 

Edgarcito,

 

This is what the Redneck Prof actually said.

 

I have no idea why you should all have the same discernment at the same time, nor what it would accomplish.  That was not the point I was making.  

It seems to me, though, that there should be more consistency in interpretation, if an omniscient god were making a genuine effort to reveal himself.

 

When God reveals himself does he cause 47 people to think the same thing or does he give them the choice to think the same thing?  Your reply to the Professor seems to have God changing 47 minds by forcefully overriding their free will.  Is that what you actually meant?

 

With regard to your reply to me, you've couched it in a vague and metaphorical way.  A race is a nice piece of imagery and if it works for you, then I'm pleased for you.   However, in my long experience (twenty years) of Christianity I've found that believers usually revert to metaphors when they have no real and concrete answers to difficult questions.  But thank you for trying, anyway.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

Thanks Walter.  I can't find concrete evidence and faith together in my thesaurus....lol.  So I'm afraid all I have is analogous evidence to present.  Thanks for the time to respond.

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34 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

After raising children, I'm of the opinion that teaching through control seems to provoke more rebellion than anything....not necessarily a bad rebellion, just an "I want to do it myself" attitude.  Autonomy, victory over our lesser nature, seems rather satisfying.  But I expect the discussion will lead to why endow humans with these qualities to begin with.  And I suspect it's for that very reason, that when we do the inherently right thing, the thing we KNOW matches the Truth, in Spirit, it's powerful, and provokes us then to uphold that for future generations....and be simultaneously thankful.  I expect God would wish THAT over the other for His children. 

None of which addresses the issue of children being raped and sold into sexual slavery.

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35 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I expect God would wish THAT over the other for His children. 

Is he able to prevent evil, but not willing; or is he willing, but not able?

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37 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Thanks Walter.  I can't find concrete evidence and faith together in my thesaurus....lol.  So I'm afraid all I have is analogous evidence to present.  Thanks for the time to respond.

 

That's ok, Edgarcito.

 

Twenty years ago I was where you are now - unable to answer difficult questions about my Christian faith without falling back on vague metaphors or hopelessly subjective arguments.  My Christian faith was all words and no action.  So, in all seriousness I now have to ask you a difficult question.

 

"What are you going to do today to stop a ten year old girl from being brutally raped, many times?"

 

I'm asking you this because of what Jesus said in Matthew 25.

 

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 

36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 

38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 

39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

 

If you do something today for that little girl, then you are doing it for Jesus, Edgarcito.

 

Well?

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

After raising children, I'm of the opinion that teaching through control seems to provoke more rebellion than anything....not necessarily a bad rebellion, just an "I want to do it myself" attitude.  Autonomy, victory over our lesser nature, seems rather satisfying.  But I expect the discussion will lead to why endow humans with these qualities to begin with.  And I suspect it's for that very reason, that when we do the inherently right thing, the thing we KNOW matches the Truth, in Spirit, it's powerful, and provokes us then to uphold that for future generations....and be simultaneously thankful.  I expect God would wish THAT over the other for His children. 

 

Thanks for trying to reason through the issue. But...

 

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

None of which addresses the issue of children being raped and sold into sexual slavery.

 

You're talking about a master plan and a purpose, which you are using to try and excuse bad things happening to people. It's all just part of the plan.

 

Sex slavery, then, has to be part of the plan if nothing can take place outside of the plan. Remember, according to the mythology god is alleged to know the past, present and future. That means knowing in advance (1) lucifer's rebellion, (2) 1/3 of the angles in heaven cast out of heaven, (3) the fall of man here on earth, (4) and a plan of salvation and all that entails (including thousands of years and countless generations during the process). 

 

The issue of children being raped and sold into sexual slavery is a part of this pre-known master plan. 

 

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Is he able to prevent evil, but not willing; or is he willing, but not able?

 

The greeks had this hammered out thousands of years ago, pre-christianity. And yet christians still wonder around dumbfounded at trying to answer the question. He must be able if he's all powerful (if god exists as described in these myths, in other words). That narrows it down to able but not willing, according this "master plan." 

 

What you christian believer visitors need to understand is that most us have thought this all the way through. Many times over in most cases. We've gone back and forth with the question of whether or not we would even want to worship a god like this, permitting that a god like this even exists in the first place. My answer is a firm no, I would not worship some celestial ego, jealous god as described in the bible, who orders wholesale genocide, condones and orders the rape and slavery of young women, who is also able but unwilling to stop all of the bullshit going on in the world

 

And what does that say about people who do want to worship such a thing? I think when the context is laid and the spot light hits you on center stage it's rather unflattering. What kind of person are you anyways to subscribe to and condone such behavior? It doesn't make you good. If anything it makes you bad simply by association. You stand here condoning horrible traits and behaviors being past along as if they are the only truth and good thing in the world. Which is evident and demonstrable nonsense. The claims of christianity are evident and demonstrable nonsense! 

 

Now of course you may not be a bad guy. My guess is that you aren't. You probably actually believe what they've been feeding you and you simply haven't thought this thing all the way through like myself and many members here have done. You're a victim of a corrupt system, in short. I don't hold that against you personally. But I do hold that against the system itself which has been informing you and others like you. I have a big problem with the system itself. 

 

I'm still attempting to REASON with you. Don't dodge the hard questions. Try answering them honestly while addressing the points. 

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I just want to get this off my chest.

 

Right now in real time one of my wife's best friends daughter has been missing since sunday. Her car was found abandoned. The 16 year old girl and her dog are missing. All I see is over 50 comments on facebook with prayer emoji's and everyone lining up in a band wagon to comment that they're praying!!!!! Who's out there scouring the woods and communities where she was last seen? Who's doing something proactive to get this little girl (or he body at this point!!!) found????

 

It pains me to see people acting so foolish while trying to make themselves look good and self righteous on social media because they're praying. What they're doing is a whole lot of nothing at all to get this girl found!

 

And again, concerning my last post, what does this say about the mythological ego god and his devious looking "master plan?" 

 

I'm too pissed off to keep writing..........

 

Later

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10 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Thanks for trying to reason through the issue. But...

 

 

You're talking about a master plan and a purpose, which you are using to try and excuse bad things happening to people. It's all just part of the plan.

 

Sex slavery, then, has to be part of the plan if nothing can take place outside of the plan. Remember, according to the mythology god is alleged to know the past, present and future. That means knowing in advance (1) lucifer's rebellion, (2) 1/3 of the angles in heaven cast out of heaven, (3) the fall of man here on earth, (4) and a plan of salvation and all that entails (including thousands of years and countless generations during the process). 

 

The issue of children being raped and sold into sexual slavery is a part of this pre-known master plan. 

 

 

The greeks had this hammered out thousands of years ago, pre-christianity. And yet christians still wonder around dumbfounded at trying to answer the question. He must be able if he's all powerful (if god exists as described in these myths, in other words). That narrows it down to able but not willing, according this "master plan." 

 

What you christian believer visitors need to understand is that most us have thought this all the way through. Many times over in most cases. We've gone back and forth with the question of whether or not we would even want to worship a god like this, permitting that a god like this even exists in the first place. My answer is a firm no, I would not worship some celestial ego, jealous god as described in the bible, who orders wholesale genocide, condones and orders the rape and slavery of young women, who is also able but unwilling to stop all of the bullshit going on in the world

 

And what does that say about people who do want to worship such a thing? I think when the context is laid and the spot light hits you on center stage it's rather unflattering. What kind of person are you anyways to subscribe to and condone such behavior? It doesn't make you good. If anything it makes you bad simply by association. You stand here condoning horrible traits and behaviors being past along as if they are the only truth and good thing in the world. Which is evident and demonstrable nonsense. The claims of christianity are evident and demonstrable nonsense! 

 

Now of course you make not be a bad guy. My guess is that you aren't. You probably actually believe what they've been feeding you and you simply haven't thought this thing all the way through. You're a victim of a corrupt system, in short. I don't hold that against you personally. But I do hold that against the system itself which has been informing you and others like you. I have a big problem with the system itself. 

 

I'm still attempting to REASON with you. Don't dodge the hard questions. Try answering them honestly while addressing the points. 

I did try Josh....thanks for the effort, sincerely.  We both know the Christian message....it provides hope and encouragement through others if nothing else....twice weekly if you so desire.  What do you propose as an alternative please.  I know Edgarcito has temptation in him, I know Josh does.  Put it out there pleas sir.

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5 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

I just want to get this off my chest.

 

Right now in real time one of my wife's best friends daughter has been missing since sunday. Her car was found abandoned. The 16 year old girl and her dog are missing. All I see is over 50 comments on facebook with prayer emoji's and everyone lining up in a band wagon to comment that they're praying!!!!! Who's out there scouring the woods and communities where she was last seen? Who's doing something proactive to get this little girl (or he body at this point!!!) found????

 

It pains me to see people acting so foolish while trying to make themselves look good and self righteous on social media because they're praying. What they're doing is a whole lot of nothing at all to get this girl found!

 

And again, concerning my last post, what does this say about the mythological ego god and his devious looking "master plan?" 

 

I'm too pissed off to keep writing..........

 

Later

What I have found in church is there are probably less than 10% of the population that actually show up for the work aspect.  Likely the same with finding this young lady.  The FB thing is probably self promotion.....or at least an "I'm thinking about you, but don't care enough to mobilize".  Isn't this reinforced in the Bible?  Wide is the path, narrow is the gate?  Your bad efforts are like filthy rags?  Isn't this accurate?  Is that not exactly what you are describing?

 

But on another note, as feigned as the church might be, the encouragement of others meeting together TO potentially mobilize and sometimes act ain't a bad thing. 

 

What are our alternatives in your opinion? 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I did try Josh....thanks for the effort, sincerely.  We both know the Christian message....it provides hope and encouragement through others if nothing else....twice weekly if you so desire.  What do you propose as an alternative please.  I know Edgarcito has temptation in him, I know Josh does.  Put it out there pleas sir.

 

If you're trying to hear me out instead of just shut me out, I respect that. I respect that a lot! 

 

The christian message is many fold and that's what I'm calling attention to. Yes, it speaks of things like peace, love, hope and encouragement. But it has a real nasty flip side which generally gets ignored, Edgarcito. That is my concern here. We can talk of temptation, but I'm taking it further than that from the individual human to the god which has supposedly preconceived or pre-known all of the goings on in the world. We can use my real time example and not be obscure.

 

Right now a 16 year old girl is missing. She's been missing for three days. She may have been victimized by sex trafficking. I don't know yet. Or raped. Or raped and murdered. Everyone is desperately trying to get it figured out. People are praying for a safe return to a god who, in the bible, condones and orders killing, rape and sexual slavery (the young girls take for yourselves....).

 

Why would the god of the bible care one way or another about this 16 year old any more than the countless girls and victims of his orders and fits in the bible? If such a god did exist, the god is able but not willing to stop any of this. And worse, orders and condones such behavior, which, none of the prayer sending comments acknowledge at all. The focus is always one sided. And rarely on this nasty side of the religion which is constantly swept under the rug with excuses. 

 

My alternative? 

 

The god doesn't even exist in the first place. There's no one looking down on the earth either ordering or condoning and allowing such behaviors to take place all the time. There is no jealous god waging wars against the other gods or any of that nonsense. There is a world full of animals doing what animals do, human beings not withstanding. There is no contradictions because the god and the bible are mythology and not actually real. If such a god did exist it could be argued that it's least as evil as it is good. But such a god in 99.999999999% likelihood does not exist and never did. 

 

I think my alternative is very reasonable considering all of the facts available to consider. 

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

the Christian message....it provides hope and encouragement through others if nothing else....twice weekly if you so desire. 

Except that it doesn't provide any of that for the ten-year-old girl.  She doesn't even get Sundays off.  It's just another day of sickening atrocity for her.

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1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

 

If you're trying to hear me out instead of just shut me out, I respect that. I respect that a lot! 

 

The christian message is many fold and that's what I'm calling attention to. Yes, it speaks of things like peace, love, hope and encouragement. But it has a real nasty flip side which generally gets ignored, Edgarcito. That is my concern here. We can talk of temptation, but I'm taking it further than that from the individual human to the god which has supposedly preconceived or pre-known all of the goings on in the world. We can use my real time example and not be obscure.

 

Right now a 16 year old girl is missing. She's been missing for three days. She may have been victimized by sex trafficking. I don't know yet. Or raped. Or raped and murdered. Everyone is desperately trying to get it figured out. People are praying for a safe return to a god who, in the bible, condones and orders killing, rape and sexual slavery (the young girls take for yourselves....).

 

Why would the god of the bible care one way or another about this 16 year old any more than the countless girls and victims of his orders and fits in the bible? If such a god did exist, the god is able but not willing to stop any of this. And worse, orders and condones such behavior, which, none of the prayer sending comments acknowledge at all. The focus is always one sided. And rarely on this nasty side of the religion which is constantly swept under the rug with excuses. 

 

My alternative? 

 

The god doesn't even exist in the first place. There's no one looking down on the earth either ordering or condoning and allowing such behaviors to take place all the time. There is no jealous god waging wars against the other gods or any of that nonsense. There is a world full of animals doing what animals do, human beings not withstanding. There is no contradictions because the god and the bible are mythology and not actually real. If such a god did exist it could be argued that it's least as evil as it is good. But such a god in 99.999999999% likelihood does not exist and never did. 

 

I think my alternative is very reasonable considering all of the facts available to consider. 

So the alternative is no story, no God, no potential continual church/group and human nature to back us when we are hopeless?  And you believe we will yield more than 10% that the church yields?

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Should we worship a beast because the alternative is nothing?

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

So the alternative is no story, no God, no potential continual church/group and human nature to back us when we are hopeless?

The alternative is reality. You present a false dichotomy in that the only alternative to your god belief is hopelessness. It isn't.

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Edgarcito,

 

It's been five hours since I asked you what you were going to do today to stop that ten year old girl from being brutally raped. 

 

In those five hours she's probably been 'used' and abused many times.

 

Scripture is quite clear that Jesus himself expects you to do something about it.

 

As a believing, born-again Christian this is your responsibility and your duty.

 

Well?

 

 

Child-sexual-abuse-e1557492382708.jpg

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6 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

So the alternative is no story, no God, no potential continual church/group and human nature to back us when we are hopeless?  And you believe we will yield more than 10% that the church yields?

 

The alternative is observable reality. We are alive and we have the opportunity to make the most of it while we are. Get along with others to the best of our ability, which, is an evolutionary social trait among our species. Churches and theistic religions have been riding the coat tails of human social evolution and trying to use what had already long been established in terms of human moral thinking to suite their own institutional wants, needs and concerns. That's where people's 10% is going. To employ church staff and allow these institutions to exist for no good reason other than allowing tradition to continue. But should they exist? Should we keep them alive? If so, what for? 

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2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

The alternative is observable reality. We are alive and we have the opportunity to make the most of it while we are. Get along with others to the best of our ability, which, is an evolutionary social trait among our species. Churches and theistic religions have been riding the coat tails of human social evolution and trying to use what had already long been established in terms of human moral thinking to suite their own institutional wants, needs and concerns. That's where people's 10% is going. To employ church staff and allow these institutions to exist for no good reason other than allowing tradition to continue. But should they exist? Should we keep them alive? If so, what for? 

The church I attended for years Josh.....on Wednesday nights they would have a free supper for anyone who wanted to come eat....anyone.  Usually consisted of school children and sometimes their parents at the urging of their children.  Many times children bringing their small siblings that couldn't be left alone otherwise.....i.e. no parents anywhere.....to eat SOMETHING mind you.  Then we would talk about Christianity and sing and bus them home.  Got to know the children around our small town and watched them grow up......and HELPED them grow up with people that cared.....usually the church teachers were also the school teachers.  When we weren't doing that, there were always ladies cooking meals for people that lost their loved ones.....meals to their houses, meals before the funeral.  We took Thanksgiving groceries to people around town that had no Thanksgiving meals.  We fixed elderly peoples houses in need of repair.....homebound people that could not do for themselves.  I mowed countless yards.  And more Josh.

 

I guess I'm a little taken back that I need to discount Christianity and church because of some notion that God is an evil bastard that promotes rape.....a NOTION that is invalid when I say God is real, but valid when you say a rapist...

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7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

So the alternative is no story, no God, no potential continual church/group and human nature to back us when we are hopeless?  And you believe we will yield more than 10% that the church yields?

Grow up. Calling the people here hopeless because they don't believe like you or have a community like you do is so childish. 

 

Actually I take that back. Innocent children don't get ridiculous like that until their parents instill some us vs them beliefs in them. 

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