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Bazz99

Is it actually impossible to reason with a devout christian?

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30 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

The church I attended for years Josh.....on Wednesday nights they would have a free supper for anyone who wanted to come eat....anyone.  Usually consisted of school children and sometimes their parents at the urging of their children.  Many times children bringing their small siblings that couldn't be left alone otherwise.....i.e. no parents anywhere.....to eat SOMETHING mind you.  Then we would talk about Christianity and sing and bus them home.  Got to know the children around our small town and watched them grow up......and HELPED them grow up with people that cared.....usually the church teachers were also the school teachers.  When we weren't doing that, there were always ladies cooking meals for people that lost their loved ones.....meals to their houses, meals before the funeral.  We took Thanksgiving groceries to people around town that had no Thanksgiving meals.  We fixed elderly peoples houses in need of repair.....homebound people that could not do for themselves.  I mowed countless yards.  And more Josh.

 

I guess I'm a little taken back that I need to discount Christianity and church because of some notion that God is an evil bastard that promotes rape.....a NOTION that is invalid when I say God is real, but valid when you say a rapist...

Putting something in caps doesn't make it true. Unless youre like Donald Trump and you live in that alternate reality lol. 

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

The church I attended for years Josh.....on Wednesday nights they would have a free supper for anyone who wanted to come eat....anyone.  Usually consisted of school children and sometimes their parents at the urging of their children.  Many times children bringing their small siblings that couldn't be left alone otherwise.....i.e. no parents anywhere.....to eat SOMETHING mind you.  Then we would talk about Christianity and sing and bus them home.  Got to know the children around our small town and watched them grow up......and HELPED them grow up with people that cared.....usually the church teachers were also the school teachers.  When we weren't doing that, there were always ladies cooking meals for people that lost their loved ones.....meals to their houses, meals before the funeral.  We took Thanksgiving groceries to people around town that had no Thanksgiving meals.  We fixed elderly peoples houses in need of repair.....homebound people that could not do for themselves.  I mowed countless yards.  And more Josh.

 

I guess I'm a little taken back that I need to discount Christianity and church because of some notion that God is an evil bastard that promotes rape.....a NOTION that is invalid when I say God is real, but valid when you say a rapist...

All this equates to "my church is good/does good works therefore I can disregard the fact that the book I worship and the entity that supposedly reveals himself through or even wrote that book, says a shitload of stuff in that book that no person with any sense of moral grounding would accept". 

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@WalterP raised a valid question here about the little girl. It reminded me of a talk I heard and I wish to post an excerpt from that talk here.

Allow me to 'hi-jack' this thread with this excerpt. 

 

It talks about moving from Religion to Responsibility. Seems quite apt for the topic on hand.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

The church I attended for years Josh.....on Wednesday nights they would have a free supper for anyone who wanted to come eat....anyone.  Usually consisted of school children and sometimes their parents at the urging of their children.  Many times children bringing their small siblings that couldn't be left alone otherwise.....i.e. no parents anywhere.....to eat SOMETHING mind you.  Then we would talk about Christianity and sing and bus them home.  Got to know the children around our small town and watched them grow up......and HELPED them grow up with people that cared.....usually the church teachers were also the school teachers.  When we weren't doing that, there were always ladies cooking meals for people that lost their loved ones.....meals to their houses, meals before the funeral.  We took Thanksgiving groceries to people around town that had no Thanksgiving meals.  We fixed elderly peoples houses in need of repair.....homebound people that could not do for themselves.  I mowed countless yards.  And more Josh.

 

I guess I'm a little taken back that I need to discount Christianity and church because of some notion that God is an evil bastard that promotes rape.....a NOTION that is invalid when I say God is real, but valid when you say a rapist...

 

It's nice that those church people fed children. People do a lot of great things. 

 

Why doesn't Jesus ever do anything? If he was real he could feed them 3 meals every day. 

 

Why is it so easy for people to think of all sorts of good things Jesus could do, but he never does em? 

 

Why do Christians always give credit to Jesus for things that people do? 

 

 

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Edgarcito,

 

It's now been 15 hours since I first asked you what you would do today to stop that ten year old girl from being raped.

 

By my count you have 9 hours left before I will be forced to conclude that you would do nothing today to help her.

 

Well?

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10 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I guess I'm a little taken back that I need to discount Christianity and church because of some notion that God is an evil bastard that promotes rape.....a NOTION that is invalid when I say God is real, but valid when you say a rapist...

 

You're taken back because you don't understand what I'm saying. Regardless of works, the religion itself promotes narcissistic attitudes and behaviors toward other religions, non-believers and such. The works of a few do nothing to change the dark side of the religion itself that I'm trying to discuss. 

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I don't know that this is about the merits of Christianity or objectivity.....it seems more that our choices validate our needs.  And I gather we don't really understand this.

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25 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

You're taken back because you don't understand what I'm saying. Regardless of works, the religion itself promotes narcissistic attitudes and behaviors toward other religions, non-believers and such. The works of a few do nothing to change the dark side of the religion itself that I'm trying to discuss. 

There is no dark side otherwise?

 

Edit:  No narcissistic attitudes in science, in art, in sports...lol, come on man.

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

it seems more that our choices validate our needs. 

"Validate" is, I think, a poor word choice.  "Our choices reflect our needs" might be more accurate.

 

For example, you've chosen to ignore the ten-year-old girl because you need for god to be innocent.

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

There is no dark side otherwise?

 

Edit:  No narcissistic attitudes in science, in art, in sports...lol, come on man.

Light and dark are what we make them for ourselves.

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Edgarcito,

 

It's ok for you to admit that you can't give a decent answer to my question.  Will you at least acknowledge that, rather than just blanking me?

 

Walter.

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20 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Light and dark are what we make them for ourselves.

Right, no standard....not definable. 

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19 minutes ago, WalterP said:

Edgarcito,

 

It's ok for you to admit that you can't give a decent answer to my question.  Will you at least acknowledge that, rather than just blanking me?

 

Walter.

I don't know what child you are wishing me to help Walter.  I'm not an police officer nor sex trafficking investigator.  Not sure how you defined that Jesus wants me to go help this child here in the next few minutes.  I understand works are a part of belief.  I did some works yesterday that I deem important to continuing the values I believe in.  Fair enough?

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28 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

"Validate" is, I think, a poor word choice.  "Our choices reflect our needs" might be more accurate.

 

For example, you've chosen to ignore the ten-year-old girl because you need for god to be innocent.

No, I don't need for God to be innocent....  Take that statement to heart and please don't address it again.  If you don't believe that, then you need to be more specific to my case.  Thx.

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2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't know that this is about the merits of Christianity or objectivity.....it seems more that our choices validate our needs.  And I gather we don't really understand this.

 

Speak for youreself and not for others.  Here, read the following in front of a mirror:

 

"I don't know that this is about the merits of Christianity or objectivity.....it seems more that my choices validate my needs.  And I gather I don't really understand this."

 

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48 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Right, no standard....not definable. 

This is not to be confused with ethics or morality, though, which are both also subjective, but which both have semi-universal standards.

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43 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

No, I don't need for God to be innocent....  Take that statement to heart and please don't address it again.  If you don't believe that, then you need to be more specific to my case.  Thx.

Then do you serve, and worship, a god who is complicit in the rape of ten-year-old girls?

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30 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't know what child you are wishing me to help Walter.  I'm not an police officer nor sex trafficking investigator.  Not sure how you defined that Jesus wants me to go help this child here in the next few minutes.  I understand works are a part of belief.  I did some works yesterday that I deem important to continuing the values I believe in.  Fair enough?

 

Why doesnt God help the child himself right now? Why would God need your help to save children from sex trafficking?

 

Mt 19:26: With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible

 

Are all things possible with God, Edgarcito? Can God do anything? If he can why doesn't he stop sex trafficking of his little ones? Why does God allow sex trafficking of children?

 

Why do you shift the responsibility for the supposedly all-powerful God actually handling something ... to lesser beings...human's...to handle. Is it because you know deep down that God never does anything? And never will do anything? 

 

Who came up with this song?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg6W76q6a2E

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

No, I don't need for God to be innocent

So then, answer the question: is god able to prevent evil (the rape of a ten-year-old girl), but not willing to; or is he willing, but not able?

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Not trying to cause trouble here; just want to throw in a couple of thoughts to consider, for what they're worth.

 

Rejecting the idea of God on a lack of evidence works as opinion, but not as a statement of fact. The assumption that there isn't any evidence of God because an individual hasn't encountered or doesn't recognize any such evidence is a fallacious claim of extraordinary knowledge. The cosmological proposition of God can't be refuted with epistemological arguments about how God is supposed to be known.

 

At the same time, atheists don't reject the idea of God out of a hatred of God or anger at God. I do believe that their rejection is ultimately an emotional preference, but this isn't meant as a criticism. I believe that what a lot of atheists reveal with their rejection of the idea of God is that when they look at life and see bad things happen, they would rather believe that bad things happen without a god than believe in a god who allows bad things to happen.

 

Again----not a criticism, just an observation.

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24 minutes ago, Moonobserver said:

Not trying to cause trouble here; just want to throw in a couple of thoughts to consider, for what they're worth.

 

Rejecting the idea of God on a lack of evidence works as opinion, but not as a statement of fact. The assumption that there isn't any evidence of God because an individual hasn't encountered or doesn't recognize any such evidence is a fallacious claim of extraordinary knowledge. The cosmological proposition of God can't be refuted with epistemological arguments about how God is supposed to be known.

 

At the same time, atheists don't reject the idea of God out of a hatred of God or anger at God. I do believe that their rejection is ultimately an emotional preference, but this isn't meant as a criticism. I believe that what a lot of atheists reveal with their rejection of the idea of God is that when they look at life and see bad things happen, they would rather believe that bad things happen without a god than believe in a god who allows bad things to happen.

 

Again----not a criticism, just an observation.

Such an observation may have merit concerning some atheists, not all, possibly not even most. 

 

However, in this instance, @Edgarcito is operating under the assumption that god has a plan for everybody.  The ten-year-old sex slave analogy is useful for determining whether his assumption is valid or not.  It is not an attempt to rail against an incompetent god who allows atrocities inflicted upon innocents.

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I know we don't agree.  The question posed is it possible to agree.

48 minutes ago, Moonobserver said:

Not trying to cause trouble here; just want to throw in a couple of thoughts to consider, for what they're worth.

 

Rejecting the idea of God on a lack of evidence works as opinion, but not as a statement of fact. The assumption that there isn't any evidence of God because an individual hasn't encountered or doesn't recognize any such evidence is a fallacious claim of extraordinary knowledge. The cosmological proposition of God can't be refuted with epistemological arguments about how God is supposed to be known.

 

At the same time, atheists don't reject the idea of God out of a hatred of God or anger at God. I do believe that their rejection is ultimately an emotional preference, but this isn't meant as a criticism. I believe that what a lot of atheists reveal with their rejection of the idea of God is that when they look at life and see bad things happen, they would rather believe that bad things happen without a god than believe in a god who allows bad things to happen.

 

Again----not a criticism, just an observation.

Said much better than I....but is pretty much what I'm thinking as well.  Which brings us back to the OP....  Do we find some reason to allow the other stance......and if so, though what means. 

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3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I know we don't agree.  The question posed is it possible to agree.

Said much better than I....but is pretty much what I'm thinking as well.  Which brings us back to the OP....  Do we find some reason to allow the other stance......and if so, though what means. 

Actually, the OP questions whether or not it is possible to reason with a theist.  Agreement is not in question, beyond the ability to agree on standards of evidence.

 

As it stands, there are several questions/points you have failed to address (including mine).  This would be part of the reasoning together process, if not the agreement. 

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4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Actually, the OP questions whether or not it is possible to reason with a theist.  Agreement is not in question, beyond the ability to agree on standards of evidence.

 

As it stands, there are several questions/points you have failed to address (including mine).  This would be part of the reasoning together process, if not the agreement. 

Great, let's go with logic for a minute please. 

The Bible states that we can's see the complete picture.  My question is, how may we pass judgment on this (God), when we can't see all the brush strokes, components, colors, width, depth, etc.

 

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