Catholic Eucharist

[Moonobserver]

The heart of Catholic worship is the sacrament of the Eucharist, and the heart of the Eucharist is the doctrine of transubstantiation. For those who have never been in the Catholic Church and are unfamiliar with this, it's the belief that the bread and wine consecrated for Communion become the literal, physical body and blood of Jesus. This is an absolute dogma which every Catholic must believe in order to BE Catholic.

 

The CC maintains guidelines stipulating that the bread administered in Communion must be made of wheat, since it was wheat bread used by Jesus when he initiated the Eucharist at the Last Supper. Wheat contains gluten, therefore the CC has ruled that its Communion bread must have enough gluten to qualify as wheat bread. Some people----including some Catholics----suffer from celiac disease, an allergic reaction to gluten which can make them violently ill. In an effort to accommodate them, the CC has authorized the use of low-gluten bread for Communion and the availability of separate wine chalices for gluten-sensitive parishoners to avoid cross-contamination.

 

The problem is that this leads back to the doctrine of transubstantiation. Logically, if transubstantiation actually takes place there should be no need for the CC to take any such measures to protect gluten-sensitive individuals, because once transubstantiation has occurred the gluten should no longer be there regardless of how much or how little there was to begin with. The CC claims that all of its official decisions are divinely guided. Why would they have to take measures to protect sincere believers from being harmed by the Body of Christ? It makes absolutely no theological sense.

[florduh]

I'm shocked that the church did something that doesn't make sense.

[midniterider]

A cracker turning into Jebus dont make no sense to me.

 

Satan and gluten both end with the N sound....i dont think it's a coincidence.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Why did god create celiac disease to begin with?

[sdelsolray]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Why did god create celiac disease to begin with?

 

A rather plausible answer is he didn't.  Imaginary entities cannot create disease.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

47 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

A rather plausible answer is he didn't.  Imaginary entities cannot create disease.

Yes.  My question was asked "tongue in cheek," as it were.

[Moonobserver]

To any Catholics who may read this, I apologize for the direction this thread has taken. My intent was to illustrate, in as frank but as diplomatic a way as possible, a serious theological issue concerning the central doctrine of the Catholic Church; it was not my intent for the discourse to deteriorate into the base, sophmoric morass of gratuitous rancor it has since become. In considering my observation on this highly sensitive subject, of which I am confident you are more capable than some, I hope you will bear that distinction in mind.

[TEG]

I hate to say it, but this is the kind of discourse you can expect on ex-christian.net, unless maybe you preface it with something like, THIS IS A SERIOUS QUESTION; DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY SERIOUS ANSWERS?

 

Having said that, the churches, catholic, eastern, anglican, etc. have their own weasely defintions of substance, presence, etc. that get them out of this kind of dilemma.  There was once even a heresy about the body of christ being present in one's feces after eating the host; they have an answer for that one, too.  I think the bottom line is, it looks like bread, it tastes like bread, it can give you celiac disease like bread, but, it isn't bread.  Until it is digested; then it isn't the body of christ anymore, and I guess it isn't bread anymore either.  And, it "surpasses understanding," which means you are not supposed to understand it.  Voila!

 

If you search "gluten transubstantiation" you get more information.

https://www.catholic.com/qa/celiac-disease-and-transubstantiation

https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-is-the-vatican-so-obsessed-with-gluten

 

This is the kind of thing that settles any doubt about my being an EX-christian.  It's NUTS.  Not just the specific doctrine, but the fact that since the first century the teaching of the church has picked up debris like a snowball and has turned it into a bunch of divided churches that are nothing like the original.  That goes for things like the trinity, calvinism/arminianism, inerrancy, the nature of baptism, transubstantiation, etc.  If I had grown up in a church that taught, "If it is not in the apostles' creed, it is not important," I might still be a christian.

[TEG]

6 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Why did god create celiac disease to begin with?

 

God did not create celiac disease.  We have disease because Adam and Eve sinned. 

[Moonobserver]

6 hours ago, TEG said:

If you search "gluten transubstantiation" you get more information.

https://www.catholic.com/qa/celiac-disease-and-transubstantiation

https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-is-the-vatican-so-obsessed-with-gluten

Interesting, and also telling. The CC absolutely insists on its communion bread being wheat, and absolutely insists that in order to qualify as wheat it must contain gluten----thereby firmly establishing gluten as an *elemental* substance of its communion bread, then dismisses it as an "accidental" substance when it makes people sick. That's the part that doesn't work out.

[TEG]

2 hours ago, Moonobserver said:

That's the part that doesn't work out.

 

I get the strange feeling that you expect things to work out . . . .

[Moonobserver]

1 hour ago, TEG said:

 

I get the strange feeling that you expect things to work out . . . .

Rather, you seem to feel that I expect *illogical* things to work out. I don't.

[AcrobaticDetective]

On 10/18/2019 at 10:54 AM, Moonobserver said:

The heart of Catholic worship is the sacrament of the Eucharist, and the heart of the Eucharist is the doctrine of transubstantiation. For those who have never been in the Catholic Church and are unfamiliar with this, it's the belief that the bread and wine consecrated for Communion become the literal, physical body and blood of Jesus. This is an absolute dogma which every Catholic must believe in order to BE Catholic.

 

The CC maintains guidelines stipulating that the bread administered in Communion must be made of wheat, since it was wheat bread used by Jesus when he initiated the Eucharist at the Last Supper. Wheat contains gluten, therefore the CC has ruled that its Communion bread must have enough gluten to qualify as wheat bread. Some people----including some Catholics----suffer from celiac disease, an allergic reaction to gluten which can make them violently ill. In an effort to accommodate them, the CC has authorized the use of low-gluten bread for Communion and the availability of separate wine chalices for gluten-sensitive parishoners to avoid cross-contamination.

 

The problem is that this leads back to the doctrine of transubstantiation. Logically, if transubstantiation actually takes place there should be no need for the CC to take any such measures to protect gluten-sensitive individuals, because once transubstantiation has occurred the gluten should no longer be there regardless of how much or how little there was to begin with. The CC claims that all of its official decisions are divinely guided. Why would they have to take measures to protect sincere believers from being harmed by the Body of Christ? It makes absolutely no theological sense.

 

I agree it doesn't make sense, but their logic (transubstatiation) does offer an explanation for the case of celiac. The "essence" of the bread changes, but not it's "accidents." It becomes Jesus' body in essence but retains the accidental properties of bread.

 

Makes total sense doesn't it?

[◊ Weezer ◊]

5 hours ago, AcrobaticDetective said:

 

Makes total sense doesn't it?

 

Just like the trinity makes perfect sense.  As my grandfather used to say, it's all a bunch of gobbledygook. 

[Moonobserver]

On 3/21/2020 at 1:26 PM, AcrobaticDetective said:

 

I agree it doesn't make sense, but their logic (transubstatiation) does offer an explanation for the case of celiac. The "essence" of the bread changes, but not it's "accidents." It becomes Jesus' body in essence but retains the accidental properties of bread.

 

Makes total sense doesn't it?

Yet those "accidents" are absolutely essential when those with bad reactions to them ask for them to be left out, which must make gluten an "accidental essence".

[AcrobaticDetective]

20 hours ago, Moonobserver said:

Yet those "accidents" are absolutely essential when those with bad reactions to them ask for them to be left out, which must make gluten an "accidental essence".

 

Of course you are correct. Gluten in this case would still be considered an accident by Catholics in the Aristotelian sense.

[Myrkhoos]

The Eastern Orthodox have a more this a mystery but it is real - explanation. By the way they insist on being leavened bread, unlike the catholics plus some differences in the prayers which they see as essential. 

      My problem was 1. The ritual cannibalism part. Eating flesh and blood especially considered somehow alive so I am eating a man alive. 

                   2. The insistence on bread and wine and the right incantations which sound materialistic, prescientific view. If God is all powerful he can become some apple pie just by saying God bless this bread and transform it etc...

         The sacraments in general have a very shamanistic bent to me anyway.  Who knows maybe that is just the devil in me speaking :))

      

[AcrobaticDetective]

On 4/4/2020 at 10:38 AM, Myrkhoos said:

The Eastern Orthodox have a more this a mystery but it is real - explanation. By the way they insist on being leavened bread, unlike the catholics plus some differences in the prayers which they see as essential. 

      My problem was 1. The ritual cannibalism part. Eating flesh and blood especially considered somehow alive so I am eating a man alive. 

                   2. The insistence on bread and wine and the right incantations which sound materialistic, prescientific view. If God is all powerful he can become some apple pie just by saying God bless this bread and transform it etc...

         The sacraments in general have a very shamanistic bent to me anyway.  Who knows maybe that is just the devil in me speaking :))

      

 

You're absolutely correct. In Eastern Orthodoxy, it is left as a mystery. The Roman rite of Catholicism tends to be more legalistic and scholastic while Eastern Orthodoxy tends to be more mystical. I believe this is primarily due to the difference between West and East than it is religious (though the Orthodox Churches would disagree with me).