replacing worldview issues

[TEG]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I recommend replacing religion with hardcore street drugs and illicit sex, since the only reason you reject christianity is because you're angry at god and want to sin. 

 

I have indeed been accused of that.  As to wanting to sin, it depends on the sin . . . .

[ToHellWithMe]

There isn't really anything to replace it with, I think. It is a problem, but one without a well-defined solution. I guess you just have to live with it and hope that the need itself disappears or at least weakens, as your brain adapts to the new perception of reality. Just raise your own kids without that clutch, so they're adapted to manage without it from the get-go.

 

After 15 years, I find myself still believing on some level and to some extent. I don't subscribe to religion anymore, but I just need the illusion of meaning for comfort, sometimes.

[WalterP]

5 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

@WalterP 

 

Do you have a good recommendation for Myrkhoos?

 

Since I was raised on young earth creation, I didn't know anything about physics or the BBT growing up. I found an old general overview book:

 

Time Life: The Universe

 

It was published in 1968. So I'd recommend something general like that, but much more up to date. Because I was dealing with old BBT and then had to get the science up to date reading more material. The main thing is that I finally dove into looking at the BBT for myself at that point. If you become interested in that sort of thing we have a lot of up to date threads going at the moment. This one is especially of interest: 

 

 

 

 

Hello Myrkhoos. 

 

At JoshPantera's behest I'd recommend starting with this book.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Brief_Lessons_on_Physics

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Seven-Brief-Lessons-Physics-Rovelli/dp/0399184414

 

Or you can try listening to the 7 lessons, here.  http://www.sevenbrieflessons.com/

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[TEG]

6 hours ago, ToHellWithMe said:

There isn't really anything to replace it with, I think. It is a problem, but one without a well-defined solution. I guess you just have to live with it and hope that the need itself disappears or at least weakens, as your brain adapts to the new perception of reality.

 

You may or may not replace it with something formal; but you do have to start with that new perception of reality.  This world and this existence is all there is; there is no book that has all the answers; no one is watching over me; most of my life up to this point has been wasted . . . .

[Myrkhoos]

18 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I recommend replacing religion with hardcore street drugs and illicit sex, since the only reason you reject christianity is because you're angry at god and want to sin. 

Unfortunately, these are very expensive. In my country Christianity is basically subsidized by the state - yes, the salaries of priests are payed for by the State, many bulding are renovated with significant contributions from the state, many clergy also receive payment for official religious classes from public school 1-12 grades - so it is in generally a lot cheaper.  Plus religion is legal, street drugs and prostitution are not , although the latter is highly tolerated. But still very expensive and rife with dangers of God knows what diseases, issues with pimps, exploitation, etc. 

 

But, funny as it your comment might be, IT DOES actually have a BIG grain of truth. Many practices from many parts of Christianity are actually chemically addictive experiences. I read about this in Steve Hassan Combatting Cult mind control. Intense religiousity can and does in many cases produce the effects of hardcore drugs, both the euphoric and the psychotic phases. Some form of pleasure inducing activity/substance I should try a little more. Thinking of some good herbal remedies right now actually.

[Myrkhoos]

21 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

@WalterP 

 

Do you have a good recommendation for Myrkhoos?

 

Since I was raised on young earth creation, I didn't know anything about physics or the BBT growing up. I found an old general overview book:

 

Time Life: The Universe

 

It was published in 1968. So I'd recommend something general like that, but much more up to date. Because I was dealing with old BBT and then had to get the science up to date reading more material. The main thing is that I finally dove into looking at the BBT for myself at that point. If you become interested in that sort of thing we have a lot of up to date threads going at the moment. This one is especially of interest: 

 

 

 

I did not read all of your comment as it was long and dense and I feel I need several readings to get throught it.

 

But I got this, or something that resonated, the seeker worldview. I think this is a core thing, I felt it but did not xpress it properly. Christianity for me was, in some areas, certainty. The finder of truth thing. The starter point of my problem with the interpretation of it I got is that it failed at that. It did not provide me with a coherent, consistent answer, but with incoherent, contradictory things in too many places, held together by ignorance or some kind reframing it all in a big mystery. So it collapsed  from the inside, so to speak. So you basically have this certainty vibe, but the content cannot really provide it and there is a conflict. What I, could say LOVE, or really admire about some form of scientific inquiry is that its basic foundation is consistent with its methods. It begins with I do not know, and to find methods to deal with that.  I mean you can find and there are holes and contradictions in scientific knowledge, but it does not matter as it does start with a claim of absolute, definitive model. It actually thrives on holes and contradictions as a reason to move forward. 

 

I mean the scientific way seems like a journey in knowledge. It is not a problem of mistakes, sins, punishments, but of experiences and learning. So even morality is just a way of experimenting and getting results. This journey of knowledge, where every experience has value, not matter how painful or pleaserful, seems to resonate. It seems a satisfactory way of looking at the world in a way. I mean, everything is a succes of sorts, because it brings knowledge of some sort.

 

Of course, killing and raping young boys is not the type of thing worth pursuing as an experiment, BUT, studying child rapists and murderers for their psychology, and neurology and possibilities of influence sounds ok. 

 

It is also a way to have respect and reverence for authorities and ancestors without falling into an unquestioning total obedience trap, and I mean obedience as in the mind control  scam artist power dominance type.

[Joshpantera]

2 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

But I got this, or something that resonated, the seeker worldview. I think this is a core thing, I felt it but did not xpress it properly. Christianity for me was, in some areas, certainty. The finder of truth thing. The starter point of my problem with the interpretation of it I got is that it failed at that. It did not provide me with a coherent, consistent answer, but with incoherent, contradictory things in too many places, held together by ignorance or some kind reframing it all in a big mystery. So it collapsed  from the inside, so to speak. So you basically have this certainty vibe, but the content cannot really provide it and there is a conflict.

 

Yes, exactly. Any traditional religion which starts out as if they know exactly how the world was created, and by whom, and then step forward through time as if these unknown claims are actually known by them necessarily provide people with a certainty vibe, but the content can not really provide the certainty that they are claiming and there is a conflict. You picked up on that like so many of us have as well. 

 

So if we were going to stick to the truth as close as possible, what does that entail? 

 

Science hasn't solved the question of origins. It's an ongoing question. One that we can choose to engage in the search thereof, not pretending as if there is no search or as if the search is over. Just like this, you should be able to move step by step through all of the hard questions addressing them each with intellectually honest answers. No bullshit, just the facts. That's what would put you ahead of your former self thinking, incorrectly, that you know all of these things which you don't actually know. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

Unfortunately, these are very expensive. In my country Christianity is basically subsidized by the state - yes, the salaries of priests are payed for by the State, many bulding are renovated with significant contributions from the state, many clergy also receive payment for official religious classes from public school 1-12 grades - so it is in generally a lot cheaper.  Plus religion is legal, street drugs and prostitution are not , although the latter is highly tolerated. But still very expensive and rife with dangers of God knows what diseases, issues with pimps, exploitation, etc. 

 

But, funny as it your comment might be, IT DOES actually have a BIG grain of truth. Many practices from many parts of Christianity are actually chemically addictive experiences. I read about this in Steve Hassan Combatting Cult mind control. Intense religiousity can and does in many cases produce the effects of hardcore drugs, both the euphoric and the psychotic phases. Some form of pleasure inducing activity/substance I should try a little more. Thinking of some good herbal remedies right now actually.

Look at the addiction cycle and consider the overlap/similarity with religious behavior.

[florduh]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Look at the addiction cycle and consider the overlap/similarity with religious behavior.

 

IDENTICAL.

[WalterP]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Look at the addiction cycle and consider the overlap/similarity with religious behavior.

 

https://psmag.com/news/the-god-drug-when-religion-becomes-an-addiction

 

Relevant, much?

[older]

I like the guilt part of that cycle. Christianity is big on guilt.

[Bhim]

Hi @Myrkhoos. I could be reading you incorrectly, but I think I understand your dilemma concerning the replacement of Christianity with an alternate worldview. Let me start by saying that I know a thing or two about physics, and can safely say that physics is not the appropriate replacement for Jesus. They simply aren't in the same category.

 

Something that helped me on my journey away from Jesus was that I had a foundation to fall back upon, namely that of Hinduism. Long story short, I was born and raised Hindu but gave myself entirely over to Jesus in college, to the point that I could (and still can) quote the Bible with far greater fidelity than the typical Westerner raised in the faith. One of the difficulties I encountered when leaving Jesus was that at some point I realized I didn't believe in the very notion of theism. I still dont. But as you seem to suggest, nature abhors a vacuum and I found my worldview wanting. I realized that even though I may not intellectually believe in the Vedas, reincarnation, Lord Vishnu, and all the rest, I did believe in the overall worldview that these beliefs convey. I further realized that personal behavior does not necessitate intellectual assent. Back when I was a Christian, I was part of a group of fundamentalist but irreverent evangelicals. These were people who would curse to high heaven, smoke tobacco, and make jocular sexual references with impunity, but who wouldn't engage in lustful behavior, gossip, or blasphemy. It is somewhat ironic that these days I avoid profanity as much as possible, abstain from unhealthy substances like tobacco (and meat, for that matter), and avoid contact with the opposite sex save for my spouse (this is not intentional, simply preferential), but feel no compunction in voicing my belief that Jesus of Nazareth is the incarnation of evil. My worldview and lifestyle are actually very "conservative," and yet are wholly antithetical to Christianity. If I may turn Gandhi on his head, I actually like Christians in terms of personality, but I utterly detest Jesus. I behave and live like someone who believes in a very traditional form of Hinduism, to the point of practicing many of the rituals. I simply don't believe any of the supernatural claims, and I am at a point where I am comfortable with this apparent tension.

 

Your preferred worldview may be very different than mine. And again, I am fortunate to have had something to fall back upon. But I do think it's important to go through the intellectual exercise of determining what exactly your values are, and hopefully finding that they are something other than the simple hedonism which is the default of all humans.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

On 10/28/2019 at 11:26 PM, Bhim said:

But I do think it's important to go through the intellectual exercise of determining what exactly your values are,

In my experience, this.  Because this is a vital exercise that is often completely denied to those who are indoctrinated from childhood.  I was told what my values were and punished for questioning them.  It created a tremendous amount of confusion, conflict, and frustration; because my actual values are, and always have been, radically different from what I was told they were.  I have given myself the freedom to express them now; but it's been a long and arduous journey.

[LostinParis]

I replaced god the father with mother nature. Nowdays I am more likely to have a euphoric experience at the top of a mountain rather than inside a church.
 

Nature is endlessly fascinating. One of my new core values is to tread lightly on the earth.

 

I am comforted, weirdly, by the idea that after the climate change apocalypse, when humans become extinct, nature will continue doing it’s thing.