Edgarcito Posted November 13, 2019 Author Share Posted November 13, 2019 On 11/11/2019 at 8:08 PM, sdelsolray said: Of course, evidence from several congruent, convergent and/or disparate sources, all leading to the same (or similar) rational inference(s) is weighed heavily. Kind of my point given the many defined types... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted November 13, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 13, 2019 Further to my first reply, I would add that any God worthy of the title God would know what evidence would convince me of its existence, and would be able to provide such evidence. The fact that I have not been presented with such evidence tells me that either this God doesn't care to provide such evidence of its existence, or simply doesn't exist. Either way, it appears to me that no God/s exist. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted November 13, 2019 Author Share Posted November 13, 2019 23 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: Further to my first reply, I would add that any God worthy of the title God would know what evidence would convince me of its existence, and would be able to provide such evidence. The fact that I have not been presented with such evidence tells me that either this God doesn't care to provide such evidence of its existence, or simply doesn't exist. Either way, it appears to me that no God/s exist. Like what, the Bible, or witnesses, or the church?? #answerfail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 13, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted November 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: Like what, the Bible, or witnesses, or the church?? #answerfail Obviously, if those were acceptable forms of "evidence", there'd be no ex-christians. The problem with this thread is that you are trying to conflate various means of convincing someone with what is acceptable as evidence. At best, you're simply confused; at worst, you're being intellectually dishonest. People are easily convinced of all manner of things without evidence; because what convinces them isn't evidence. Granted there are differences in what constitutes evidence in a court of law versus what constitutes evidence in a scientific lab; but to try to shoehorn "god" into a conversation about evidence by citing different forms of "evidence" is nothing short of an attempt to deceive, obfuscate, and inveigle. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: Like what, the Bible, or witnesses, or the church?? #answerfail Religions throughout history have some, or all, of these sorts of things. What makes this evidence true for yours and false for the others? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted November 13, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Like what, the Bible, or witnesses, or the church?? #answerfail Let me repeat my post so that you may ponder on it and consider the absurdity of your reply in context. To assist you I've bolded certain parts. "Further to my first reply, I would add that any God worthy of the title God would know what evidence would convince me of its existence, and would be able to provide such evidence. The fact that I have not been presented with such evidence tells me that either this God doesn't care to provide such evidence of its existence, or simply doesn't exist. Either way, it appears to me that no God/s exist." To further help you, consider your "evidence" and the fact I've already investigated it and am clearly not convinced, then think about that in context of my first line. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 4 hours ago, Edgarcito said: It's not irrelevant with respect to believers and non-believers attempting to communicate. There appears to be many forms of evidence due to humans being unique, not receiving and processing information the same. Non-believers seem to think believers obstructionists. I guess the question is, can we achieve certainty via all the varied forms of evidence or do they hinder one form or another. Obstructionists? Not at all. Merely gullible, convinced by things that don''t even rise to my standard of "very slightly possible, but unlikely." To put it another way, we have vastly different standards for truth. You may consider the Bible to be a historical document, whereas I see it as an anthology of politically- and religiously-motivated fiction. In that context, certainty is completely off the table. You said above, "Like what, the Bible, or witnesses, or the church??" In my worldview , their total evidentiary value is 0 x 0 x 0 = 0. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted November 14, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 14, 2019 3 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Like what, the Bible, or witnesses, or the church?? #answerfail Further to my post above Why are you not convinced of Islam? You know the Quran, Muslim testimony of miracles, or Dar al-Islam? Maybe once you've answered those you'll have figured out why we don't regard your examples as evidence for God. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 14, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted November 14, 2019 By the way, @Edgarcito, what evidence would you offer to our ten-year-old sex slave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeeker0 Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 I agree with @WalterP, evidence that completely excludes faith. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 KJV Hoped for: wishful thinking Evidence of things not seen: clear enough as it is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted November 14, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 14, 2019 7 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said: I agree with @WalterP, evidence that completely excludes faith. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 KJV Hoped for: wishful thinking Evidence of things not seen: clear enough as it is. Also: John 20:29 New International Version (NIV) 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” This is a clear exhortation from Jesus to believe extraordinary claims without good evidence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 14 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said: I agree with @WalterP, evidence that completely excludes faith. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 KJV Hoped for: wishful thinking Evidence of things not seen: clear enough as it is. Many interpret Hebrews 11:1 as 'faith is wishful thinking and that wishful thinking is evidence of unseen things'. Thus, religious faith is evidence. How convincing is that? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted November 15, 2019 Author Share Posted November 15, 2019 What still gets me is many of you expect that if there is a God, that he owns YOU some sort of special consideration, some sort of personal experience/evidence outside of what He provides everyone else. The point being, and I have asked this before....why do you expect Jesus to show up when we are in the time of the Holy Spirit. Why do you expect God the Father to show up when we are in the time of the HS. Why do you expect evidence....a miracle, or something physical, when apparently all these things were provided to humanity to no avail?? Yet here we are again......He doesn't do this, He doesn't do that, He is all powerful but won't. I KNOW you people are more intelligent than this. Care to explain? Is it personal hurt? Did you never feel Spiritual? Talking about it is ok....no biggie. But to place yourself in some special consideration group outside of the group of humanity is dishonest.....like you accuse Christians of.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted November 15, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 15, 2019 2 hours ago, Edgarcito said: What still gets me is many of you expect that if there is a God, that he owns YOU some sort of special consideration, some sort of personal experience/evidence outside of what He provides everyone else. We are just asking for reasonable proof of his existence. Is that too much to ask? Some people are clearly swayed by little evidence, others require sufficiently more. One would think a God who created us would know this and know what to provide as evidence. Or maybe my logical reasoning is too much to handle? Quote The point being, and I have asked this before....why do you expect Jesus to show up when we are in the time of the Holy Spirit. This is an assertion without evidence. We don't expect Jesus to turn up cause he's dead - and I'm granting you that he was a real person without challenge there. (Cause I'm nice like that) As for "we are in the time of the holy spirit" Please define "holy spirit" then provide EVIDENCE of such a thing, and that we are actually it its time. EVIDENCE PLEASE. (One would think that in this thread one wouldn't go about making unfounded claims. Quote Why do you expect God the Father to show up when we are in the time of the HS. As above. Quote Why do you expect evidence....a miracle, or something physical, when apparently all these things were provided to humanity to no avail?? Yet here we are again......He doesn't do this, He doesn't do that, He is all powerful but won't. I KNOW you people are more intelligent than this. You are a priori assuming the story of miracles to be true. I've witnessed people claiming miracles though my whole life - the problem is I was there and it was simply natural explanations that they inserted god into and started dancing about. That's in my life, so I have no reason to trust a bunch of apocalyptic cult members from 2000 years ago without very good evidence. Quote Care to explain? Can't you read? We've been explaining to you for pages. Either we don't make sense or you don't understand. The odds of ALL of us not making sense vs you not understanding are weighed heavily in the latter. Quote Is it personal hurt? Did you never feel Spiritual? The fuck is this? Personal hurt? For fucks sake you gota get off the emotional "oh the church hurt you train". You must be thick if you think we don't believe in your god because of "personal hurt". As for spiritual, there was a time I would have claimed to have felt spiritual. Now I ask what do you mean by spiritual? Quote Talking about it is ok....no biggie. But to place yourself in some special consideration group outside of the group of humanity is dishonest.....like you accuse Christians of.... It seems requiring evidence to back up claims puts us in a 'special consideration group". Well, allow me to apologise on behalf of all of us for not being as gullible as you are. Apparently we are "special" and require something extra. No doubt something wrong with the brain - I know what it is... we all require... what's that thing again... hmmm oh yeah... EVIDENCE! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted November 15, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted November 15, 2019 As it is written, NO EVIDENCE FOR YOU!!!!! Early on the Church decided to go with faith over knowledge. It was the only viable choice if they wanted to sell the religion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEG Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 2 hours ago, Edgarcito said: What still gets me is many of you expect that if there is a God, that he owns YOU some sort of special consideration, some sort of personal experience/evidence outside of what He provides everyone else. The point being, and I have asked this before....why do you expect Jesus to show up when we are in the time of the Holy Spirit. Why do you expect God the Father to show up when we are in the time of the HS. Why do you expect evidence....a miracle, or something physical, when apparently all these things were provided to humanity to no avail?? Yet here we are again......He doesn't do this, He doesn't do that, He is all powerful but won't. I KNOW you people are more intelligent than this. Care to explain? Is it personal hurt? Did you never feel Spiritual? Talking about it is ok....no biggie. But to place yourself in some special consideration group outside of the group of humanity is dishonest.....like you accuse Christians of.... I specifically am not interested in a unique personal experience; if I had a vision that no one else had, I would think I was hallucinating. I do not think it is too much to ask for god, the holy spirit, whatever, to reveal himself to all mankind, in a way that convinces us of the truth. A bible that makes sense would be a good start; believers who are truly transformed by said holy spirit and do not fight academic or literal wars with each other would be a nice touch; maybe a miracle or two, like in the bible. (Like what I posted before.) As it is, why should we believe in YOUR god as revealed in YOUR scripture, rather than any other god or any other scripture? My understanding of your entire argument is, believe what I believe because I say you should. (And if you don’t, you’re arrogant, unintelligent, emotionally damaged, dishonest heathen.) My guess is that you do not believe in Zeus. If so, you can understand why we do not believe in your triune god. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted November 15, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 15, 2019 There's no evidence that the bible is true to begin with, in fact, the evidence shows it to be false from the very outset. That which is demonstrably false, is also that which presents the story of jesus and the "time of the holy spirit," following the ascension story of jesus. It's one demonstrably false claim after another all the way down to the holy spirit, and second coming / new earth scenario. So it doesn't make any sense to ask us why we are not giving any attention to the holy spirit part of the myth. It's one of the weakest aspects of the myth. Much more convincing would be to come face to face with YHWH or Yeshua. Not some obscure spirit or force thereof. So of course that's the last thing on people's mind, @Edgarcito People speak in tongues all the time. It's nonsense. It's not evidence of the holy spirit. People speak gibberish and pretend, it's obvious. People also make false prophecies all the time, it's not evidence of the spirit of prophecy. These are a few of the things associated with the holy spirit myth. They are not evidence oriented things at all. They are a breeding ground for dishonest claim making and assorted nonsense and that's about it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeeker0 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 3 hours ago, Edgarcito said: What still gets me is many of you expect that if there is a God, that he owns YOU some sort of special consideration, some sort of personal experience/evidence outside of what He provides everyone else. The point being, and I have asked this before....why do you expect Jesus to show up when we are in the time of the Holy Spirit. Why do you expect God the Father to show up when we are in the time of the HS. Why do you expect evidence....a miracle, or something physical, when apparently all these things were provided to humanity to no avail?? Yet here we are again......He doesn't do this, He doesn't do that, He is all powerful but won't. I KNOW you people are more intelligent than this. Care to explain? Is it personal hurt? Did you never feel Spiritual? Talking about it is ok....no biggie. But to place yourself in some special consideration group outside of the group of humanity is dishonest.....like you accuse Christians of.... Blabbidy blah blah holy spirit blab blab. I don't know if you've figured out yet you won't get anywhere here with arguing that the Bible is "truth." Telling people that or interpreting it to those who view the document simply as a historical primary source won't get the conversation anywhere. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeeker0 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 3 hours ago, Edgarcito said: What still gets me is many of you expect that if there is a God, that he owns YOU some sort of special consideration, some sort of personal experience/evidence outside of what He provides everyone else. The point being, and I have asked this before....why do you expect Jesus to show up when we are in the time of the Holy Spirit. Why do you expect God the Father to show up when we are in the time of the HS. Why do you expect evidence....a miracle, or something physical, when apparently all these things were provided to humanity to no avail?? Yet here we are again......He doesn't do this, He doesn't do that, He is all powerful but won't. I KNOW you people are more intelligent than this. Care to explain? Is it personal hurt? Did you never feel Spiritual? Talking about it is ok....no biggie. But to place yourself in some special consideration group outside of the group of humanity is dishonest.....like you accuse Christians of.... People with brains and the ability to use critical thinking skills don't need to be labeled as a special group. Those are YOUR words so own them. Second, isn't it funny that an all powerful, omniscient ever present being needs to be labeled with something as stupidly human as gender? Actually it's funny how many human qualities this being has. Almost as if humans created it.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 4 hours ago, Edgarcito said: What still gets me is many of you expect that if there is a God, that he ow(e)s YOU some sort of special consideration, some sort of personal experience/evidence outside of what He provides everyone else... Talking about it is ok....no biggie. But to place yourself in some special consideration group outside of the group of humanity is dishonest.....like you accuse Christians of.... My terms are my terms, and they are not negotiable. I am literally incapable of religious faith. I need direct physical evidence because nothing else is good enough. And calling me (and others) "dishonest" for clearly stating what we require as evidence? Edgarcito, that is rather rude of you. You have no way of knowing what's going on inside our thoughts, so you are out of line. Kindly apologize. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: What still gets me is many of you expect that if there is a God, that he owns YOU some sort of special consideration, some sort of personal experience/evidence outside of what He provides everyone else. IF there is A god I am curious to know something about that god. Since we've got thousands of claims for gods over the ages it's pretty important to know what we're working with. 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: The point being, and I have asked this before....why do you expect Jesus to show up when we are in the time of the Holy Spirit. Why do you expect God the Father to show up when we are in the time of the HS. Why do you expect evidence....a miracle, or something physical, when apparently all these things were provided to humanity to no avail?? Yet here we are again......He doesn't do this, He doesn't do that, He is all powerful but won't. I KNOW you people are more intelligent than this. Care to explain? Is it personal hurt? Did you never feel Spiritual? So you already have a god in mind? That means that's the only god to consider? In light of that we'll go ahead and look at an omniscient being. One that knows all. One that loves everyone. And one that, by your own admission, provided evidence that failed to convince people. We can talk about what god will or won't do but the OT tells where Elija mocks the priests of Ba'al because he doesn't accept the sacrifice when ultimately YHWH does. But does whichever Ba'al ever agree to this contest? Does Ba'al have a similar do not test your Ba'al rule and so doesn't bother? These are the same "outs" or "excuses" as to why YHWH doesn't just appear and perform on command. But upon failure the priests of Ba'al were all killed. Are xians willing to just be put to a similar test today? Or is their god sleeping like Ba'al on that fateful day? Perhaps it's just more like the story of Gideon (like the ones who leave bibles in hotels) whose father was a priest of Ba'al. And he pulled down alters to Ba'al. The people were going to kill him but his father, the priest, said it was up to Ba'al to do such a thing and not the people. It would essentially show that he was real, that he cared, and had the power (I'm paraphrasing). Of course Gideon lived and this showed that Ba'al was false and YHWH was real. Are xians willing to accept this sort of thing today? Of course not. There are reasons why their god acts like the Ba'al of old. 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Talking about it is ok....no biggie. But to place yourself in some special consideration group outside of the group of humanity is dishonest.....like you accuse Christians of.... I want nothing more than what was demonstrated in the bible. You should want it too. mwc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 6 hours ago, Edgarcito said: What still gets me is many of you expect that if there is a God, that he owns YOU some sort of special consideration, some sort of personal experience/evidence outside of what He provides everyone else. The point being, and I have asked this before....why do you expect Jesus to show up when we are in the time of the Holy Spirit. Why do you expect God the Father to show up when we are in the time of the HS. Why do you expect evidence....a miracle, or something physical, when apparently all these things were provided to humanity to no avail?? Yet here we are again......He doesn't do this, He doesn't do that, He is all powerful but won't. I KNOW you people are more intelligent than this. Care to explain? Is it personal hurt? Did you never feel Spiritual? Talking about it is ok....no biggie. But to place yourself in some special consideration group outside of the group of humanity is dishonest.....like you accuse Christians of.... Edgarcito, You know that this is the time of the Holy Spirit by what... faith, perhaps? But I don't have any faith, so we cannot even agree on what type of evidence you and I will accept. Until you present evidence that doesn't require faith, you and I can't even begin any sensible dialogue. You DID ask what evidence we would accept and several people have told you - yet you persist in going by faith. Can you present any evidence that doesn't require faith? Thank you. Walter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justus Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 12:26 PM, florduh said: Mat 16:4 informs us that no sign shall be given. In other words, believe and have faith for no particular reason other than someone told you so. That's about as lame as it gets. Since it is written that no sign shall be given we can conclude that there shall be no evidence provided whatsoever to those who do not believe the extraordinary claims of ancient goat herders and storytellers. Matthew 16:4 says a sign shall be given. (That is pretty convincing evidence in and of itself regarding the validity of the gospel IMO.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted November 15, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 15, 2019 47 minutes ago, Justus said: Matthew 16:4 says a sign shall be given. (That is pretty convincing evidence in and of itself regarding the validity of the gospel IMO.) Actually you are both wrong. The verse says both that no sign would be given and that the sign of Jonas would be given. Widely belived by Christians to be a for telling of his death and resurrection. If you think that's convincing might I point you to some contemporary religious folks who also have signs and declare themselves messangers of god? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 15, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted November 15, 2019 Why do y'all expect gifts from Santa Claus when we live in the age of the Easter Bunny? Seriously, none of us expect anything from a god we don't believe exists. By the way, @Edgarcito, what evidence would you offer to our ten-year-old sex slave? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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