Edgarcito Posted November 28, 2019 Author Share Posted November 28, 2019 Just now, sdelsolray said: Being a lazy coward is not an appropriate, rational and expected starting point. Define your God. I actually have missed you S. One person for some reason I find I respect. You were nicer to Edgarcito than END3....nice to see that side of you. It's the Christian God of the Bible btw. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted November 28, 2019 Author Share Posted November 28, 2019 On 11/26/2019 at 5:50 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said: Joe, and presumably, his brother Jay, are both unique individuals, with different experiences (per your own previous post). Thus, whatever "testimony" they share, however certain they are, however much in agreement they are, is neither reproducible nor repeatable, by any other unique individual, as another would experience it filtered through their own senses, perceptions, perspectives, biases etc. You know this. But, then, this whole Joe thing was just a charade to get us all back to allowing you to redefine evidence based on personal experience, wasn't it? Poorly played, Edgarcito; End3 would have done a much better job. What choice do you have. You have essentially limited evidence types and therefore belief.....key word limited. Go for it. Per past discussions, do you think we should just use a supercomputer in lieu of a jury? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted November 28, 2019 Author Share Posted November 28, 2019 9 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Hey, End3, bring back the dragon avatar. It was cool. The family crest.....a wyvern. Aquila non captat muscas... the motto. I'll see if I can find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted November 28, 2019 Author Share Posted November 28, 2019 On 11/26/2019 at 6:32 PM, WalterP said: Good for you, TruthSeeker0! Well done for recognizing the selfishness of the 'God's Plan Get's You Off The Hook' kind of faith. You didn't like what you saw in yourself and were honest enough to do something about it. So, do you consider yourself to be a more moral and more empathetic person now, than when you were a Christian? Thank you. Walter. Kind of a good point here actually.....back to the number line analogy.... that we keep trying to move towards life/eternal life. Yes, people find ways around actually helping, caring. But the interesting thing is they keep coming to the door to try. "I need to be a better person/ I want to be a better person"....maybe doing a few things to move to a higher number but then failing and falling back to a lower number...possibly regressing even further. Evidence pointing towards a religion and subsequent God that's congruent with this condition....spiritually and physically btw. Does this evidence count? Do you have an analytical method for this obvious observation/reality/truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted November 28, 2019 Author Share Posted November 28, 2019 Regarding number one....how could God be something we could actually understand.... (end of number one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted November 28, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Regarding number one....how could God be something we could actually understand.... (end of number one). How then can we justify accepting the claim of something that cannot be understood? And yet you do have a claim of understanding that which cannot be understood - you claim it is the Christian God. So apparently we can understand quite a bit if we unpackage all that's entailed there. Either you are right and we cannot understand it, in which case discussion is pointless. Or you are terribly confused by claiming that we cannot understand God, while at the same time claiming this God is the Christian one (which comes with a lot of understanding built in.) Think you need to try again Ed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 28, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted November 28, 2019 9 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said: Not really - its just telling us what he isn't. I could describe my dog as not black and not a St Bernard but you haven't really got a good description of my dog have you? Which is why I said it was a start on a definition, rather than an adequate description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 28, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted November 28, 2019 7 hours ago, Edgarcito said: What choice do you have. You have essentially limited evidence types and therefore belief.....key word limited. Go for it. Per past discussions, do you think we should just use a supercomputer in lieu of a jury? Well, technically, you limited the evidence types to just those which non-believers would accept. I'm simply asking you to stay on point with your own topic. Or, as a famous Irishman once said, "The Almighty says, 'Don't change the subject; just answer the fockin' question'." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 28, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted November 28, 2019 7 hours ago, Edgarcito said: The family crest.....a wyvern. Aquila non captat muscas... the motto. I'll see if I can find it. Neat. Our family motto is: Quisque nisi Diplodocus nobis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 28, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted November 28, 2019 7 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said: How then can we justify accepting the claim of something that cannot be understood? And yet you do have a claim of understanding that which cannot be understood - you claim it is the Christian God. Schrödinger's god is both understandable and not-understandable so long as the brain remains closed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted November 28, 2019 Author Share Posted November 28, 2019 9 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said: How then can we justify accepting the claim of something that cannot be understood? And yet you do have a claim of understanding that which cannot be understood - you claim it is the Christian God. So apparently we can understand quite a bit if we unpackage all that's entailed there. Either you are right and we cannot understand it, in which case discussion is pointless. Or you are terribly confused by claiming that we cannot understand God, while at the same time claiming this God is the Christian one (which comes with a lot of understanding built in.) Think you need to try again Ed. No, my point is that a God should be both understandable and not.....we should not be able to comprehend God on some level.....yes on the level of our subjection, but no on a God level. What amazes me is most everyone here says or rather demands some sort of evidence and certainty on their level. Was Jesus not sufficient? Did Jesus not meet this demand for humanity?? Did God miss the answer for this inquiry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 11 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Regarding number one....how could God be something we could actually understand.... (end of number one). The first moving of the goalposts, with more to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted November 28, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted November 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: No, my point is that a God should be both understandable and not. But if you're made in God's image, then wouldn't there be understanding since you are like God? Anyway, assuming that God cannot be understandable is an Eastern concept, not Western. Of course the Eastern idea of God is nothing like in the West, which bases it's god on kingship, crime, punishment and legalism. The Hindu and Buddhist views of the god force generally describe it only as what it is not, not what it is. The reason for that is that we ourselves are the expressions of "god" and an eye can't see itself. A much more reasonable and benign way to view it in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 3 hours ago, Edgarcito said: No, my point is that a God should be both understandable and not.....we should not be able to comprehend God on some level.....yes on the level of our subjection, but no on a God level. What amazes me is most everyone here says or rather demands some sort of evidence and certainty on their level. Was Jesus not sufficient? Did Jesus not meet this demand for humanity?? Did God miss the answer for this inquiry? Presupposition. This is the impasse. Christians want to assume God is real and then get to saving us. Non-believers wont ever get past the "Why do you think God/Jesus is real?" point. ....... Was Jesus not sufficient? I've never met this person, unless you consider imagination reality, then maybe I have. But if imagination is reality I've met Harry Potter as well. Jesus and Harry are both fictional characters in my estimation. Do you consider Harry Potter real? Or no? I mean, like Jesus , Harry is a character in a book. If the criteria for reality is imagination, faith or belief, then Harry is just as real as Jesus or you or I. What evidence will YOU accept that Harry Potter is absolutely real? Besides a presupposition that Jesus is real, what other evidence you got? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 28, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted November 28, 2019 4 hours ago, Edgarcito said: What amazes me is most everyone here says or rather demands some sort of evidence and certainty on their level. No one here demanded anything. We simply gave honest answers to your questions. 4 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Was Jesus not sufficient? Did Jesus not meet this demand for humanity?? Obviously not; otherwise you would not have needed to ask us what evidence would suffice. 4 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Did God miss the answer for this inquiry? So far, yes, he has... unless I missed his post. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted November 28, 2019 Author Share Posted November 28, 2019 53 minutes ago, midniterider said: Presupposition. This is the impasse. Christians want to assume God is real and then get to saving us. Non-believers wont ever get past the "Why do you think God/Jesus is real?" point. ....... Was Jesus not sufficient? I've never met this person, unless you consider imagination reality, then maybe I have. But if imagination is reality I've met Harry Potter as well. Jesus and Harry are both fictional characters in my estimation. Do you consider Harry Potter real? Or no? I mean, like Jesus , Harry is a character in a book. If the criteria for reality is imagination, faith or belief, then Harry is just as real as Jesus or you or I. What evidence will YOU accept that Harry Potter is absolutely real? Besides a presupposition that Jesus is real, what other evidence you got? I appreciate you addressing my comment M. Thank you. Well, when asked about how I would qualify a God from a human perspective.....wouldn't we put him damn close to the Jesus figure?.....a father....loving beyond measure, gentle, saving, provider, gives salvation, is still alive that we may visit? Sounds pretty awesome to me from a human-in-need perspective. Did God actually give humanity the God they desired? And they still require more? I guess what I hear most from the collective here is there is nothing now....if you were God that had been rejected many times from this group you created, how would you handle the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 28, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted November 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: how I would qualify a God from a human perspective.....wouldn't we put him damn close to the Jesus figure?.....a father....loving beyond measure, gentle, saving, provider, gives salvation, is still alive that we may visit? Sounds pretty awesome to me from a human-in-need perspective. I'd wager that our ten-year-old sex slave would disagree with your description ... based on her different experience as a unique individual. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: I appreciate you addressing my comment M. Thank you. Well, when asked about how I would qualify a God from a human perspective.....wouldn't we put him damn close to the Jesus figure?.....a father....loving beyond measure, gentle, saving, provider, gives salvation, is still alive that we may visit? Sounds pretty awesome to me from a human-in-need perspective. Did God actually give humanity the God they desired? And they still require more? I guess what I hear most from the collective here is there is nothing now....if you were God that had been rejected many times from this group you created, how would you handle the situation. Jesus is all loving...well except for coming with a sword to pit family member against family member...and there is that hell creation of his. Where people burn. Forever. For a finite crime of not loving him. Do you acknowledge Matthew 10:34 , et al? Do you believe that people go to hell and that is part of Jesus' plan? Did God actually give humanity the God they desired? I dont know. I didnt witness any of the biblical happenings. I suspect they are fictional. Maybe God could come down in person and give us an answer himself. Until then I will assume he doesnt exist. Do we require more? More than .... Zero? Yes, I require more than zero. Why do you so easily believe this Jesus fairy tale? How would God handle it? I dont know. Maybe he's avoiding us. Or maybe.....he doesnt exist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 Btw, Edgarcito, Happy Thanksgiving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeeker0 Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 On 11/26/2019 at 7:32 PM, WalterP said: Good for you, TruthSeeker0! Well done for recognizing the selfishness of the 'God's Plan Get's You Off The Hook' kind of faith. You didn't like what you saw in yourself and were honest enough to do something about it. So, do you consider yourself to be a more moral and more empathetic person now, than when you were a Christian? Thank you. Walter. Yes I do. It's sad that it took 36 years of indoctrination for me to realize what was wrong with myself and how incredibly selfish and self centered my faith made me. It's also sad that it took my own suffering/adversity and having to face my own mortality to wake me up. I hear the comments from people in the church that I used to belong to now, and the sheer amount of hubris and indifference to the suffering and challenges of others astounds me. But that's how it goes, when they believe that "gods blessings" such as health and prosperity, only belong to the True Believers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
older Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 7 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: I'd wager that our ten-year-old sex slave would disagree with your description ... based on her different experience as a unique individual. Yes, and accodring to Deuteronomy, she didn't yell loud enough so she gets to be stoned to death. Because, well, God loves her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted November 29, 2019 Super Moderator Share Posted November 29, 2019 7 hours ago, older said: Yes, and accodring to Deuteronomy, she didn't yell loud enough so she gets to be stoned to death. Because, well, God loves her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted November 29, 2019 Author Share Posted November 29, 2019 17 hours ago, older said: Yes, and accodring to Deuteronomy, she didn't yell loud enough so she gets to be stoned to death. Because, well, God loves her. I think the implication was because she didn't fight the evil, she was complicit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 On 11/28/2019 at 3:35 AM, Edgarcito said: Walter, I'm of no obligation to follow anything....thanks. Agreed. You are under no obligation. But then, why would you ask non-believers what they would accept as evidence if you never had any intention of working within what the remit of what they tell you? Surely you should have said from the outset that it doesn't matter what anyone else says, you're always going to do do what you want? What you've done in this thread is to move the goalposts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 On 11/28/2019 at 3:41 AM, Edgarcito said: Again Walter, to attempt some resonance regarding a preferred definition of God might entail would be insurmountable hurdle to clear. I'm really sorry you don't understand why I skipped past #1. And again, it's evident we are discussion the Christian God. Thanks again. To use your own words, I am under no obligation to attempt resonance with you. Rather, because you asked for what non-believers would accept as evidence, the onus is on you to work within the remit given to you, not one of your choice. It is you who must shift to resonate with the remit that was given to you. But, you've chosen to avoid doing that by shifting the goalposts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts