Pollution free energy - brought to you by science

[Joshpantera]

The potential for pollution free energy to be precise: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/11/11/scientists-extract-hydrogen-gas-from-oil-and-bitumen-giving-potential-pollution-free-energy/?fbclid=IwAR1EWqm1kaDdd_mG_IDVAyrPX-THl5xxP5vYEhLz5e3KTaidNb3Q1EuKses

 

Scientists have developed a large-scale economical method to extract hydrogen (H2) from oil sands (natural bitumen) and oil fields. This can be used to power hydrogen-powered vehicles, which are already marketed in some countries, as well as to generate electricity; hydrogen is regarded as an efficient transport fuel, similar to petrol and diesel, but with no pollution problems. The process can extract hydrogen from existing oil sands reservoirs, with huge existing supplies found in Canada and Venezuela. Interestingly, this process can be applied to mainstream oil fields, causing them to produce hydrogen instead of oil.

[older]

Sure is interesting. While the result from burning hydrogen in a car is water and heat, the production of the hydrogen isn't pollution-free.^* But even then the reduction in pollution would be dramatic.

 

 

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* https://ucsusa.org/resources/how-do-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-work

[pantheory]

21 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

The potential for pollution free energy to be precise: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/11/11/scientists-extract-hydrogen-gas-from-oil-and-bitumen-giving-potential-pollution-free-energy/?fbclid=IwAR1EWqm1kaDdd_mG_IDVAyrPX-THl5xxP5vYEhLz5e3KTaidNb3Q1EuKses

 

 

 

 

For some or maybe most oil sand and oil shale deposits, extracting hydrogen from them may be a more economical process and resource than trying to  extract oil by distillation from these materials,  especially as the article states, a "cheap new process." For most of these deposits it's not presently  economical to develop these fields. But if they can no do it just by pumping down pressurized oxygen into a chasm, as the article explains, even  with just a a marginal profit,  then this new process will be very valuable. But hydrogen production has never been free or pollution free, or a throw-a-way by-product of oil production.

 

To produce oil and its associated products, natural gas etc. finding, drilling, pumping, and refining nowadays is a very expensive undertaking. From tar sands and oil shale deposits, the cost of producing oil is often not economically feasible. For highly viscous oil deposits, hydrogen is purchased as an input to the distillation process to crack heavier oils and tar into lighter materials that can be further distilled into gasoline, diesel, and asphaltis materials. Therefore hydrogen from oil fields and nearly all other sources is far from free or pollution free. I know they have been selling hydrogen from oil well production for more than a hundred years.  It is used for countless industrial purposes as well as for a small hydrogen fuel automotive industry. If they can produce hydrogen from oil sands and oil shale deposits more cheaply than producing petroleum from these deposits if even possible economically, then the price of hydrogen will go down and the number of pollution free hydrogen consuming products will increase. 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Sounds like Venezuela and Canada might both need some "democracy" soon.  'Murka, fuck Yeah! 

[LogicalFallacy]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Sounds like Venezuela and Canada might both need some "democracy" soon.  'Murka, fuck Yeah! 

 

Probably Canada needs 'saving' from the liberals. Send in the armed forces. To semi quote Palpatine "To ensure the security and continuing stability, Canada will be made into the fifty-first state of the United States of America for a safe, and secure, society!

[Joshpantera]

19 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Sounds like Venezuela and Canada might both need some "democracy" soon.  'Murka, fuck Yeah! 

 

Yeah, I caught that too. 

 

16 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

To semi quote Palpatine "To ensure the security and continuing stability, Canada will be made into the fifty-first state of the United States of America for a safe, and secure, society!

 

As big oil transforms into big hydrogen...

 

On 11/19/2019 at 11:27 PM, pantheory said:

If they can produce hydrogen from oil sands and oil shale deposits more cheaply than producing petroleum from these deposits if even possible economically, then the price of hydrogen will go down and the number of pollution free hydrogen consuming products will increase. 

 

 

I haven't really looked at hydrogen consuming products. Can these apply across the board to automobiles, planes, boats, etc., etc.? 

 

 

[pantheory]

On 11/21/2019 at 4:45 AM, Joshpantera said:

 

Yeah, I caught that too. 

 

 

As big oil transforms into big hydrogen...

 

 

I haven't really looked at hydrogen consuming products. Can these apply across the board to automobiles, planes, boats, etc., etc.? 

 

 

 

Yes,  hydrogen can be used for any kind of vehicle, cars, trucks, planes, boats, trains, etc. that now use internal combustion engines. But to modify currently designed engines to hydrogen, the engine would be much less efficient than if you designed an engine for hydrogen in the first place. Hydrogen is also much more dangerous a fuel than gasoline. Diesel is less dangerous than gasoline. Upon collisions hydrogen vehicles also have the disadvantage of being much more prone to explosions and intense fires than gasoline powered vehicles. Hydrogen must be compressed into strong, heavy tanks  roughly twice as big and many times heavier than as a gas tank; such a vehicle still would not have much range to it. These disadvantages must be considered when designing a hydrogen vehicle of any kind.

 

Although the link relates to a very valuable invention, the process in many or most cases will be marginally productive. Oxygen must be purchased or produced by electrolysis from water, and pumped down under high pressure into the cavern, hydrogen comes out. My guess is that the primary value for this process will eventually result in a lower price for hydrogen.

Hydrogen is primarily used as a reactant. It has a great many industrial applications also. It is used in many chemical processes, the production of carbon steels, as well as special metals and semiconductors. In the electronics industry it is widely used as a reducing agent and as a carrier gas. High-purity hydrogen is also used in gas chromatography and specialty glass manufacturing. It is also used as an molecular oxygen scavenger in the heat treating process of metals, and for its low viscosity and density for many other applications.

One of the biggest users of hydrogen are gasoline refineries for the gasoline and diesel fuel distillation, refining processes where heavier, highly viscous oils can be cracked down in to lighter hydrocarbons using heat and pressurized hydrogen, then being able to distill out greater quantities of gasoline and diesel fuels from more viscous oil deposits around the world. It is also used in oil-sand and oil-shale refining processes also using the cracking process on the heavy hydrocarbons to produce greater quantities of gasoline, diesel, propane, methane, and other lighter hydrocarbons to enable economically marginal production processes from these deposits.

So in the next few decades if this process works out by producing greater quantities of cheaper hydrogen, then there will be many advantages concerning cheaper industrial and commercial products including cheaper gasoline and diesel fuels, and eventually more hydrogen powered cars.

[older]

I once had a colleague who, after long discussions of just about anything, would end with, "It all comes down to money." I think she is right.

[Joshpantera]

I was thinking about hydrogen outboard and inboard marine engines. I guess the explosive factor is a primary concern, unless better technology for fuel storage and other factors catches up to the demand for hydrogen power. I live in hurricane alley, so I'm thinking of portable home generator applications as well. We live in a reality where power generation can be a real concern here in the deeper south. Efficiency is a big concern. And the current situation with portable generators has been a concern of mine for decades. I've rough drafted some ideas on changing them away from fossil fuel consumption. But I haven't built a prototype to test out the theory. 

 

I'll say this much, if the business environment becomes 'less hostile' to those proposing alternative's to fossil fuel, combustion engines, I'd be more inclined to keep pursuing it. But as it has been, going that route is a very dangerous business to be in. And I've been cautious and alert to that factor.....

[pantheory]

On 11/21/2019 at 10:09 AM, Joshpantera said:

I was thinking about hydrogen outboard and inboard marine engines. I guess the explosive factor is a primary concern, unless better technology for fuel storage and other factors catches up to the demand for hydrogen power. I live in hurricane alley, so I'm thinking of portable home generator applications as well. We live in a reality where power generation can be a real concern here in the deeper south. Efficiency is a big concern. And the current situation with portable generators has been a concern of mine for decades. I've rough drafted some ideas on changing them away from fossil fuel consumption. But I haven't built a prototype to test out the theory. 

 

I'll say this much, if the business environment becomes 'less hostile' to those proposing alternative's to fossil fuel, combustion engines, I'd be more inclined to keep pursuing it. But as it has been, going that route is a very dangerous business to be in. And I've been cautious and alert to that factor.....

 

Some marine engines would be good for hydrogen, I think, but only for big heavy boats since they could carry the required heavy fuel tanks.

 

Portable ground generators would be good for hydrogen since weight would not be a factor, but I think gasoline generators would be more convenient and portable. You could probably convert a gas engine to hydrogen but you would have to buy a special manifold and fuel injection system that would be closed and pressurized from the tank to the engine, and hydrogen engines have a higher risk factor toward explosion.

 

Methane is a cleaner burning fuel than gasoline or diesel, and less dangerous than a hydrogen engine to operate. They are almost as efficient as gasoline engines but are a little more dangerous. They too require very large, heavy fuel tanks but you can buy such engines, the designs of which have been time tested, unlike hydrogen engines.

 

 

[Joshpantera]

My big interest has been in electric conversions. But there's still a long way to go: 

 

 

Here's an example of a conversion project: 

 

 

Alternative engines are becoming a thing now. And at least for small vessels, electric is probably the only realistic alternative do to fuel tank issues with the hydrogen route.