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Christopherhays

Why aren’t there many Atheist Republicans?

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I'll look at your link when able. Thx. 

 

I have nothing against immigration. Every person alive in almost every country could be labled as progeny of immigrants. So what? The immigration laws or lack of laws in previous eras have no relevance to current law. 

 

Ex:  For hundreds of years in the US (and in many countries) it was lawful to own slaves. 

 

Back on topic: The laws regarding immigration in 1650 were very different from today, and bending or breaking those laws during that time was punishable by death. 

 

All I am saying is that for any of these hot topic dicussions, the current laws are where the discussion belongs. We are supposed to be a nation of laws. If the laws are outdated, let's by all means change them. Until then, anarchy isn't a viable option. 

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3 hours ago, webmdave said:

the current laws are where the discussion belongs.

I am questioning the mindset that produced and maintains the laws. There is a pervasive anti-immigrant sentiment from current Americans who are themselves descendants of immigrants.

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1 hour ago, florduh said:

There is a pervasive anti-immigrant sentiment from current Americans who are themselves descendants of immigrants

 

 You are as old as I and should remember that not long ago there were immigration laws that were strictly enforced. As it stands lately, many of those same laws are still on the books but are largely ignored. 

 

As far as having to deal with emotionally charged opinions that contradict my or your emotionally charged opinions, that's one of the privileges (frustrations) of living under the flag of freedom. Until the laws of the land that we dislike are changed, I guess we will just have to (as much as possible) tolerate certain differences of opinions. Or, we can decide to be aggressively derogatory and rude to each other without restraint, though I doubt that approach will ever effect much positive change. 

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1 hour ago, florduh said:

There is a pervasive anti-immigrant sentiment from current Americans who are themselves descendants of immigrants.

 

That may be because of the large number of illegal immigrants who are flaunting the system, and the presidential candidates who are openly advocating immigration anarchy.  The U.S. admits more legal immigrants every year than any other country in the world.  What part of “illegal” do people not understand?  What if anyone who wanted to could enter your home at any time?  The abuses on the border, separating families and so forth, are a reaction to the mush-headed immigration anarchists.

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On 11/24/2019 at 4:35 AM, Christopherhays said:

I’m an atheist and a republican. I’m not thrilled with trump, but I’m terrified of the socialist ideas coming from top democrats.

 

I do think that the atheist community at large, as a whole, needs to recognize and make room for the fact that not all religious deconverts will also take up left wing politics and convert to the democratic party. In the past it was almost a given that deconverts would become liberals as part of the process of leaving religion. But times have changed a lot. It isn't so cut and dry now. And atheism seems to be turning into a lot more of a mixed crowd than it probably once was. But then again, that should be expected with atheism on the rise. It should begin to infiltrate it's way through the various ranks of political opinion, regardless of politics. 

 

It seems unhelpful to give atheist conservatives grief just because they're conservatives. So what? I don't see why it matters. I'm glad to see that people are waking up to the problems with religious indoctrination. And I hope that shit loads of conservatives find their way to atheism, to be honest. That would mean the religious right losing ground to a non-religious right. And a secularization of both parties. I don't see where this is leading to a bad thing???

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9 hours ago, florduh said:

 

(1) The wealthy and the corporations take the most advantage.

 

(2) So I take it you are a Native American and not from a filthy immigrant family???

 

 

 


actually I am largely Cherokee. I never said I don’t like immigrants. I feel like democrats are often making harsh judgments like this. I was pointing out a loop hole that you apparently support? So let’s recognize people cheating the system on both sides, and work to fix it... pointing fingers gets us nowhere. 

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5 hours ago, florduh said:

I am questioning the mindset that produced and maintains the laws. There is a pervasive anti-immigrant sentiment from current Americans who are themselves descendants of immigrants.


it’s not that we hate immigrants. We want to make sure the people coming here respect and appreciate our country. What scares me is immigrants flocking here for government handouts and creating more socialist votes until the majority’s main voting concern is what they can get for free. That would be the end of the worlds greatest country, and I think it’s a realistic threat. 

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1 hour ago, Christopherhays said:

That would be the end of the worlds greatest country, 

 

*Raises eyebrow* And may I ask by what metric you are judging "greatest"?

 

I'll hand you greatest military straight off the bat, but when you read comparative listings of all countries measuring many metrics the grand US of A often doesn't make the top 5 or 10. I've always found the difference between proclamations of greatest, and reality, an interesting paradox.

 

For example, on the happiest ranking the US is down at 19 http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/happiest-countries-in-the-world/ 

 

If you go for a "best overall" ranking it comes in at 8 (2018 & 2019) https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/overall-rankings

 

These are self reported as well - so its how well the people of a country is ranking themselves based on whatever metric is being measured. Ok that little aside aside.

 

I recall we had a political discussion once where members took a political quiz and which put you on a quadrant map which was then collated by yours truely. What was interesting is that a fair group centered around the center as one would expect, but there were a few more on the bottom left quadrant than the bottom right. Note these were not party affiliations, but a further poll was done the majority did indeed tend to lean left. There are obviously flaws in this analysis - not all ex-c members identify as atheist, and the graph was not of political affiliation but rather how your views mapped onto a quadrant of libertarian vs authoritarian and left vs right (which should really be labeled liberal vs conservative as that's what the questions were about)

Results below for your interest.

 

As to answer the question I get the feeling (totally not scientific at all!) that atheists tend to break away from control over peoples lives. So stay out of my sex life, give me control over my body etc all things that religion as we know tries very hard to control. But that's just a feeling I get from watching and listening to various atheist shows and callers, youtubers etc. It could of course be a bubble effect wherein I am obviously on the left in the quiz below and so probably tend to consume left leaning content more.

 

 

 

Ex C Political newsmall.jpg

Ex C Political percentages.jpg

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6 hours ago, Christopherhays said:

What scares me is immigrants flocking here for government handouts and creating more socialist votes until the majority’s main voting concern is what they can get for free.

Perhaps it's time to turn off Fox news.

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6 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

*Raises eyebrow* And may I ask by what metric you are judging "greatest"?

 

 

I get the point you're making, LF, but I also like to consider metrics like the fact that the US saved Europe from Nazism (not singlehandedly no: the Canadians, the British and around 45 French people fought also, but it made the difference between defeat and victory).  And yes, that was 75 years ago but still today it's not Swedish and NZ flags that the democracy protesters in Hong Kong are waving.  Like it or not,  for all its many flaws, America still draws people willing to risk their lives to get here in a way that no other country inspires.  And I say this an an immigrant myself.

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6 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

As to answer the question I get the feeling (totally not scientific at all!) that atheists tend to break away from control over peoples lives. So stay out of my sex life, give me control over my body etc all things that religion as we know tries very hard to control. But that's just a feeling I get from watching and listening to various atheist shows and callers, youtubers etc. It could of course be a bubble effect wherein I am obviously on the left in the quiz below and so probably tend to consume left leaning content more.

 

 

I would like to think that becoming atheist would reduce one's desire to control others, but people tend to gravitate to either the right or the left, and I think the desire of many on the left to control others is pretty strong too:  Don't Eat That, Don't Wear That, Don't Say That, Use These Pronouns, Hand Over More of your Money to the State.  I know most of them mean well, but most on the Christian right mean well too.  They just have different end goals.

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7 hours ago, Christopherhays said:

What scares me is immigrants flocking here

 

Unless there's a massive surge of migrants, being scared is probably an exaggerated response and that fact will be used against you. Something-phobic, they might call you.

 

Where I live (Finland, Europe), the influx of asylum seekers from Africa and ME is usually quite steady. As such, there's normally no reason to urgently cry wolf.

 

There was a huge migrant surge in 2015 that strained the system and people freaked out, but perhaps that was not the intention of anyone, at least not any party in our politics.

 

Funnily enough, both the establishment Left and Right support the influx here. While the migrants will mostly vote for the Left, the old right-wing parties are quite happy with the fact that the migrants are a pool of cheap labor. They will condemn crimes by the migrants to appeal to their voter base but won't do anything to curb the influx. Only the new right-wing parties in Europe point out ugly facts such as that the migrants mostly remain unemployed, but those parties are shunned as "far-right racists".

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2 hours ago, ToHellWithMe said:

 

Unless there's a massive surge of migrants, being scared is probably an exaggerated response and that fact will be used against you. Something-phobic, they might call you.

 

Where I live (Finland, Europe), the influx of asylum seekers from Africa and ME is usually quite steady. As such, there's normally no reason to urgently cry wolf.

 

There was a huge migrant surge in 2015 that strained the system and people freaked out, but perhaps that was not the intention of anyone, at least not any party in our politics.

 

Funnily enough, both the establishment Left and Right support the influx here. While the migrants will mostly vote for the Left, the old right-wing parties are quite happy with the fact that the migrants are a pool of cheap labor. They will condemn crimes by the migrants to appeal to their voter base but won't do anything to curb the influx. Only the new right-wing parties in Europe point out ugly facts such as that the migrants mostly remain unemployed, but those parties are shunned as "far-right racists".


America receives more immigrants that any other country... And that’s just the legal ones I support. There are literally millions of illegal immigrants too and more coming every day. We have a party that wants to give these people all sorts of free stuff to win their vote, and they have no way to pay for it. If being scared of this situation makes me phobic then I guess I’ll accept that. 

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9 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

*Raises eyebrow* And may I ask by what metric you are judging "greatest"?


 


Have you ever been to America? 
 

#1 Freedom. Our constitution was the first to limit government and give true freedom to a people by protecting their rights in a new way. Other great country’s copy our constitution. It’s one of the greatest contributions any government has ever made. 

 

#2 Innovation. Ever heard of the internet? Our military invented that! What about google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, IBM... all products of American innovation! We’ve been leading the world in creativity since we started! Things like the light bulb, telephone, airplane, and assembly line are triumphs of the American dream. What about our space program? We put a man on the freaking moon! We have over 300,000 patents, that’s second only to China! (We have more per person than China) 

 

#3 Military. I won’t say much about our military but no other military risks it’s lives for people the way we do. We won the largest wars the world has ever seen and we defeated the greatest threats the world has ever known. Not single handedly, but if we’re honest, we deserve allot of the credit. 
 

#4 Natural Resources. I’ve been to every state and every National Park and Monument... we are extraordinarily lucky to have such a beautiful country. No other nation has a greater diversity of nature (or people) than us. 
 

#5 entertainment. We make the best music, movies, and invented the best sports. I think that contributes to people’s well being more than one may expect. 
 

I could go on but I don’t want to write a book here. I recognize we have some skeletons in our closet, but that doesn’t erase all the good we’ve done and are still doing. The spirit of innovation, creativity, and ingenuity are what makes America great. That’s exactly what I’m afraid we’ll lose if we strip the most successful and creative people of their wealth and motivation. 

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3 hours ago, TABA said:

I also like to consider metrics like the fact that the US saved Europe from Nazism (not singlehandedly no: the Canadians, the British and around 45 French people fought also, but it made the difference between defeat and victory

WW2 was not won by any one country. It was only the combined forces of the allies that resulted in victory and removing any piece of the puzzle results in a completely different war and potential allied defeat. Remove the Russian front and some 600k more Nazi troops are focused on Europe and the African campaign, without many of the resource shortages that crippled them in real life. An invasion of Europe becomes incredibly hard if not impossible. 

Remove England and you free up thousands of troops to join the Eastern front, Stalingrad and Moscow hanging in the balance verse a fresh wave of men and equipment would likely result in Russia being defeated. 

Remove the commonwealth forces from Africa and there would be insufficient forces to stop the Axis advance. 

Remove America's resources from England and Russia and those fronts would collapse. 

 

Yes, America was absolutely required for allied victory, but all of the nations were absolutely required, no one could do it without the others. 

 

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4 hours ago, Christopherhays said:

#1 Freedom. Our constitution was the first to limit government and give true freedom to a people by protecting their rights in a new way. Other great country’s copy our constitution. It’s one of the greatest contributions any government has ever made. 

All Western nations are "free".  We all freely vote, freely travel, freely speak and are granted legal protection.  America wasn't the first to ban slavery (that happened decades after England, Europe and a year later than Russia) and wasn't the first to give women the vote (again decades after other countries).  It does however have the largest prison population in the world at over 2 million "While the United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners".

 

The constitution was not the first to limit government.  The Roman's had limitations on power for both Caesar and the senate, while the English parliament had been separated into multiple houses, thereby limiting any one groups power.  The constitution was built upon the framework of earlier documents such as the Magna Carta and Bill of Rights.  It was an evolution, but it wasn't divinely inspired and was never meant to be unchanging.

 

5 hours ago, Christopherhays said:

#2 Innovation

Yes, America has a massive economy and large population and innovation flows from that.  But innovation is not a uniquely American thing.

 

5 hours ago, Christopherhays said:

#3 Military

Yes, America has the world's largest, most advanced military by a massive margin.  However when discussing the "greatest" countries, I would suggest firepower is not a common consideration.  In fact there is a good argument to be made that the American military goes too far, costs too much and takes a considerable toll through loss of life and loss of happiness.

 

5 hours ago, Christopherhays said:

#4 Natural Resources

Its certainly a huge place but lots of places are pretty and lots of places are diverse. Very subjective as to which is the prettiest.

 

5 hours ago, Christopherhays said:

#5 entertainment. We make the best music, movies, and invented the best sports

Completely subjective.  There are a couple of sports that were invented in America (American football and baseball), but generally they are not popular outside of the US.

 

America has massive wealth creation and a 20 trillion dollar debt.  That is probably the one area where America is clearly the "greatest", the economy is huge and the worlds economic stability is strongly linked to US prosperity.  You can certainly make an argument that America is the "greatest" but it just needs to be clear what criteria is being used for judging.

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Well Wertbag beat me to a reply, but here's my take which is similar to mine.

 

7 hours ago, Christopherhays said:

#1 Freedom. Our constitution was the first to limit government and give true freedom to a people by protecting their rights in a new way. Other great country’s copy our constitution. It’s one of the greatest contributions any government has ever made.

 

And yet for all your 'freedom' the US has quite draconian laws in some areas. You are one of the only 'free' countries not to have a publicly funded health system. And as Wertbag pointed out the US was behind granting many freedoms, and still is in many aspects.

 

7 hours ago, Christopherhays said:

#2 Innovation. Ever heard of the internet? Our military invented that! What about google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, IBM... all products of American innovation! We’ve been leading the world in creativity since we started! Things like the light bulb, telephone, airplane, and assembly line are triumphs of the American dream. What about our space program? We put a man on the freaking moon! We have over 300,000 patents, that’s second only to China! (We have more per person than China)

 

Many countries can claim great innovations.

 

7 hours ago, Christopherhays said:

 #3 Military. I won’t say much about our military but no other military risks it’s lives for people the way we do. We won the largest wars the world has ever seen and we defeated the greatest threats the world has ever known. Not single handedly, but if we’re honest, we deserve allot of the credit. 

 

You also only entered the war after being bombed by Japan. Until then England was on it's own and help was refused.

 

7 hours ago, Christopherhays said:

#4 Natural Resources. I’ve been to every state and every National Park and Monument... we are extraordinarily lucky to have such a beautiful country. No other nation has a greater diversity of nature (or people) than us. 

 

You are lucky. However I'd point to New Zealand's beautiful environment and unique flora and fauna as well. So very subjective as to which country is "greatest" in this regard.

 

7 hours ago, Christopherhays said:

#5 entertainment. We make the best music, movies, and invented the best sports. I think that contributes to people’s well being more than one may expect. 

 

Ah, no, no you don't. Sweden and Norway make the best music. Lord of the Ring's is the greatest movie (Made in NZ) and err we have the best sports fishing.

 

In other words #5 is completely subjective. Some would claim that those industries are killing society... ok so those who would claim that are Christians... from the US. 

  

7 hours ago, Christopherhays said:

I could go on but I don’t want to write a book here.

 

Yeah me too.

 

I will tell you what one thing you do have unique in the Free Western World - a very virulent particular brand of Christianity... that you keep exporting. Please, please, be proud of your religious ideas and keep them in the US. Thanks ;) :D 

 

 

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On 11/25/2019 at 3:52 PM, florduh said:

 

For starters: https://thinkbynumbers.org/government-spending/corporate-welfare/corporate-vs-social-welfare/

 

Being a nation of immigrants it seems odd that now many of us are opposed to immigration by any means. Many are even opposed to sanctuary for those at risk. I still wonder, what's wrong with immigrants coming to a nation of immigrants? Your heritage as being from a family of immigrants isn't diminished by time. It happened and that's why you are today an American.

 

I don't quite agree with this "nation of immigrants" construction that's offered as axiomatic these days. "Immigrant" often implies a voluntary migration. A very large number of people were involuntarily forced to leave the British Isles as punishment of one kind of another. A great many people came as indentured servants who agreed to give away their labor for a period of time, sometimes in exchange for property. And this is besides those sold into slavery. Many, if not most people were forced to come here against their will. So this "we're all immigrants" narrative is rather more complicated than what it tries to convey. 

 

But it goes without saying that both illegal immigration and legal immigration and very strongly supported by conservatives, capitalists, and Republicans in Washington DC, just not loudly or publicly. Illegal immigration from Latin America is necessary to keep wages low for all, and to fill unskilled, unwanted jobs like working in a slaughterhouse in Cactus, Texas. Legal immigration from Asia is necessary to fill high-skilled jobs that native-born Americans are too stupid or unambitious to fill, such as surgeons or computer engineers. And since native-born Americans' birth rates have been declining since the 1950s, the USA needs to import millions every year just to keep the existing tax base. Those millions aren't coming from Europe. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Christopherhays said:


America receives more immigrants that any other country... And that’s just the legal ones I support. There are literally millions of illegal immigrants too and more coming every day. We have a party that wants to give these people all sorts of free stuff to win their vote, and they have no way to pay for it. If being scared of this situation makes me phobic then I guess I’ll accept that. 

 

All strongly supported by businessmen and lobbyists in the Republican Party who need cheap labor in order to keep wages low for EVERYONE. it's the same reason why businessmen strongly supported immigration -- legal or otherwise -- from Eastern Europe and Russia 100-150 years ago. Nothing has changed since that time except the geographical origins of the immigrants. 

 

As is usually the case, the people in the boardroom who hide behind anonymity and lobbyists are the actual root of the problem, NOT the immigrant. 

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6 minutes ago, Blood said:

Many, if not most people were forced to come here against their will.

I'm not convinced that is actually true. Between 1892 and 1954 over 12 million people came here through Ellis Island alone, but it doesn't matter. I also don't understand the distinction you make over by what mechanism someone came from another country and now lives here. The only point I wanted to make is that other than the Native Americans, everyone living here, for whatever reason, has their origin in another country. Many people seem to say that their family came here 50, 100 or 200 years ago so we can just stop the immigration now.

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2 hours ago, Wertbag said:

All Western nations are "free".  We all freely vote, freely travel, freely speak and are granted legal protection.  America wasn't the first to ban slavery (that happened decades after England, Europe and a year later than Russia) and wasn't the first to give women the vote (again decades after other countries).  It does however have the largest prison population in the world at over 2 million "While the United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners".

 

The constitution was not the first to limit government.  The Roman's had limitations on power for both Caesar and the senate, while the English parliament had been separated into multiple houses, thereby limiting any one groups power.  The constitution was built upon the framework of earlier documents such as the Magna Carta and Bill of Rights.  It was an evolution, but it wasn't divinely inspired and was never meant to be unchanging.

 

Yes, America has a massive economy and large population and innovation flows from that.  But innovation is not a uniquely American thing.

 

Yes, America has the world's largest, most advanced military by a massive margin.  However when discussing the "greatest" countries, I would suggest firepower is not a common consideration.  In fact there is a good argument to be made that the American military goes too far, costs too much and takes a considerable toll through loss of life and loss of happiness.

 

Its certainly a huge place but lots of places are pretty and lots of places are diverse. Very subjective as to which is the prettiest.

 

Completely subjective.  There are a couple of sports that were invented in America (American football and baseball), but generally they are not popular outside of the US.

 

America has massive wealth creation and a 20 trillion dollar debt.  That is probably the one area where America is clearly the "greatest", the economy is huge and the worlds economic stability is strongly linked to US prosperity.  You can certainly make an argument that America is the "greatest" but it just needs to be clear what criteria is being used for judging.


our constitution was a huge leap forward in the evolution of limited government. We created it because England’s leadership was not giving us representation and thus stripping our freedom. 
 

innovation is not an American thing but we’re the best at it. I think the facts support that statement. 
 

It’s not that our military is the most powerful that makes us great. It’s the great things the military has accomplished. I admit there’s allot of bad things our military has done (especially 100+ years ago) but we’ve helped allot of people  and deserve massive credit for our efforts and sacrifices during the world wars. 
 

name me one country that even comes close to the natural beauty and diversity of America. We have almost every kind of ecosystem from rainforests, to deserts, to tropics. We have unique natural wonders like the Grand Canyon and Yellowstone. We have incredible mountains and the lowest valley on the planet. 
 

if all this isn’t good enough for you, then by all means go live in Europe.

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17 minutes ago, Blood said:

 

All strongly supported by businessmen and lobbyists in the Republican Party who need cheap labor in order to keep wages low for EVERYONE. it's the same reason why businessmen strongly supported immigration -- legal or otherwise -- from Eastern Europe and Russia 100-150 years ago. Nothing has changed since that time except the geographical origins of the immigrants. 

 

As is usually the case, the people in the boardroom who hide behind anonymity and lobbyists are the actual root of the problem, NOT the immigrant. 


I don’t blame the immigrant at all. honestly with the wages they’re paying in Mexico I’d be happy coming here to work for minimum wage... immigration is fine, it just won’t work in socialist America. People will flock here for the handouts and the innovators will be choked out by rising taxes. 

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52 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Ah, no, no you don't. Sweden and Norway make the best music. Lord of the Ring's is the greatest movie (Made in NZ) and err we have the best sports fishing.

 

In other words #5 is completely subjective. Some would claim that those industries are killing society... ok so those who would claim that are Christians... from the US. 

  

 

Yeah me too.

 

I will tell you what one thing you do have unique in the Free Western World - a very virulent particular brand of Christianity... that you keep exporting. Please, please, be proud of your religious ideas and keep them in the US. Thanks ;) :D 

 

 


I’ve never heard Swedish music... I’ll have to check it out. I’m a country and rock fan... so all the greats in those genres are pretty much American. 
 

lord of the rings is the second best movie. Just behind Dark Knight and right before Empire Strikes Back (opinion) I don’t think New Zealand makes better movies than the US though... most of the best movies are made by American companies and I’m pretty sure lotr was too.

 

 

what exactly are my religious ideas? I really want to know lol

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1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

You also only entered the war after being bombed by Japan. Until then England was on it's own and help was refused.

 


Help was refused?  Not quite. 

https://www.fdrlibrary.org/lend-lease

 


 

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