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midniterider

Suspension of disbelief.

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1 hour ago, midniterider said:

 

 

I put this in the Den so everyone could respond. :) 

 

I was wondering why you do believe in Jesus , strongly enough to debate us on Ex-c, but dont bother with church? Sounds like the social aspect you dont like. Church didn't appeal that much to me, especially after the service was done and you were supposed to wander around making small talk with people. That was the worst. I would have much rather read a book ... on Vedic philosophy. :) 

 

Whether or not there IS a Jesus, there seems to be many different Jesusy ideas from many different church-going weirdos. And adopting people's Jesusy ideas in a church is a big part of the whole faith thing, imo. Surrendering one's self to a variety of these thoughts is something I won't be doing again. The church freaks can enjoy their guilt, fear, shame, etc all they like. Without me. :)

Also the divorce....went from a deacon to the devil in some eyes after the divorce....evil Edgarcito...

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55 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

It's not subconscious....it's conscious.  My best friends are real.  The church crowd is 2.5 kids, the mob of extended family that shows to church on holidays, the Denali or Escalade....the house.....but have an attitude....and teach their kids the same attitude.  Not all, but many come to mind.  I've met several good folks in church.  I just despise the front pew crowd more than I enjoy the good folks.  And they don't discuss much past fundamentalism..... making even more unattractive.

It's possible you misunderstood my question.

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17 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

It's possible you misunderstood my question.

Real and searching out behavior from within...i.e. taking responsibility beats, imo, the ongoing façade of the church.  Good job actually. Would rather move forward mired in sin and honesty than the other. 

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5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Also the divorce....went from a deacon to the devil in some eyes after the divorce....evil Edgarcito...

 

I quit going to church upon divorce. Nobody seemed to miss me. lol

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9 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I always expected jesus to make me a better person.  Not just filled with joy and the peace that passes all understanding; but really make me into a genuinely good person.  I was constantly, and consistently, both surprised and confused, to discover that people didn't like me.  No matter how hard I prayed about it, or what scriptures I claimed over it; people just generally didn't like me.  Even after 30 years of being a christian, I still never became a better person.  I was dishonest, manipulative, narcissistic, egotistical, insecure, and emotionally wrecked.

 

I came to realize that the problem was ME and that if the problem was ever going to get fixed, I'd have to do the fixing, myself.  That is when the inward journey began, for me.  I stopped looking outside of myself for answers, for peace, for happiness... hell, I don't even look outside of myself for validation anymore.  I am enough.  

 

 

 

Excellent post! True on so many levels. I think a lot of people wind up being better people all around after leaving christianity and moving on with their lives. Of course not everyone will fit that mold, but I think a lot of people do go in this general direction. 

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18 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm not sure I agree.  My lack of belief is not, and never has been, an emotional response, or even decision.  I am intellectually unable to believe, irrespective of whether I want to or don't. 

 

Ok Prof, in the light of your comments leads me to a revised position.

 

How about this? 

 

A Christian can be asked to disbelieve, but it's almost certain that they will be emotionally unwilling to do so. 

 

Conversely, an Ex-Christian can be asked to believe again, but due to negative emotional experiences of Christianity, they will be emotionally unwilling to do so....

 

...until they have successfully processed attendant emotions like anger, guilt, shame or fear.

 

Then, once they are at peace with their past, whether or not they are intellectually unable to believe is up to them.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

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18 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm saying that, in the case of religious belief, my emotions are irrelevant.  I won't dispute that emotions played a part in the deconversion process; but once I saw religion for the lie it was, I simply cannot believe anymore.

 

Yes.  Once one cuts emotional ties with Christianity and also deals with the after effects, then emotions become irrelevant.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

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11 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Excellent post! True on so many levels. I think a lot of people wind up being better people all around after leaving christianity and moving on with their lives. Of course not everyone will fit that mold, but I think a lot of people do go in this general direction. 

Well, I don't mean to imply that I have succeeded in becoming a better person; only that I have recognized the problem and made provisions for addressing it.  I know I'm no longer dishonest, manipulative, narcissistic, etc.; but I also know that I don't always get things right and still have a lot of work to do. 

 

I've failed miserably, with people I care deeply about.  Some stuck around; others didn't.  But being able to recognize and correct my own flaws is, for me, probably the greatest benefit of leaving christianity behind.  I'm no longer bound to the idea of trusting jesus for absolution, which always kept me from making direct amends with people.  Now I know that the onus is on me; and the best apology is changed behavior.

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3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Well, I don't mean to imply that I have succeeded in becoming a better person; only that I have recognized the problem and made provisions for addressing it.  I know I'm no longer dishonest, manipulative, narcissistic, etc.; but I also know that I don't always get things right and still have a lot of work to do. 

 

I've failed miserably, with people I care deeply about.  Some stuck around; others didn't.  But being able to recognize and correct my own flaws is, for me, probably the greatest benefit of leaving christianity behind.  I'm no longer bound to the idea of trusting jesus for absolution, which always kept me from making direct amends with people.  Now I know that the onus is on me; and the best apology is changed behavior.

Here's the question, for example, if I dislike someone for whatever reason, there is the way I treat the person vs. the way I think about the person.  I can treat said person with respect, kindness, etc., but this really doesn't change my belief about that person.  Christianity, by going routinely, helped me find grace or understanding towards that person by perhaps putting my self in their position or getting to know them, understanding the place from which they stand or how they arrived there.

 

But typically, I believe the same thing in the end and in the beginning.....it's just a matter of how I treat them.  What I'm looking for is actual change in belief about people.  Where does THAT come from or does it.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

What I'm looking for is actual change in belief about people.  Where does THAT come from or does it.

It has begun to come for me.  And it began, here again, with looking inward, realizing I'm not perfect and should extend the same tolerance, compassion, even, towards others that I demand for myself.  They're just as enfuckinated as I am; and that is the key.

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1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

It has begun to come for me.  And it began, here again, with looking inward, realizing I'm not perfect and should extend the same tolerance, compassion, even, towards others that I demand for myself.  They're just as enfuckinated as I am; and that is the key.

With all due respect....this is pretty much my interpretation of grace.

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2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

With all due respect....this is pretty much my interpretation of grace.

Many interpret it that way; without the need for gods.

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29 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Many interpret it that way; without the need for gods.

 

Yes, it's called empathy.

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3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Many interpret it that way; without the need for gods.

Well this begs a few questions from a non-believer standpoint.

 

Why pursue some different morality that is not just as is, how we exist.

Where is that morality found...is it inside us or are we subject to it.

 

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16 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Why pursue some different morality that is not just as is, how we exist.

I suppose different people would have different answers, or reasons, for doing so.

 

18 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Where is that morality found

#9 Sunningdale Crescent 

Carrickfergus BT38 8LD, UK

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28 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

...

Why pursue some different morality that is not just as is, how we exist.

...

 

 

Please spend the time to write complete and coherent sentences, as that would be quite helpful for any discussion.

Put more simply, the above sentence simply sucks.

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20 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

Please spend the time to write complete and coherent sentences, as that would be quite helpful for any discussion.

Put more simply, the above sentence simply sucks.

I was asking why, from a non-believers standpoint, the necessity towards a more moral self. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I was asking why, from a non-believers standpoint, the necessity towards a more moral self. 

 

 

 

There is a rational reason.  When we are individually moral, everyone benefits.  We don't do it to avoid Hell or earn our way into heaven.  We do it to advance the whole of humanity. Or at least that is my reason for doing so.

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In my case, I seek to be a better person because I got tired of being a pariah.

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10 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

#9 Sunningdale Crescent 

Carrickfergus BT38 8LD, UK

Sorry, have I missed something? Could you please explain the significance of this address being quoted?

Thanks.

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34 minutes ago, nontheistpilgrim said:

Sorry, have I missed something? Could you please explain the significance of this address being quoted?

Thanks.

I used to live at that address, many years ago.  I was just being facetious using it as an answer to End3's question.

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6 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I used to live at that address, many years ago.  I was just being facetious using it as an answer to End3's question.

OK thanks. I'll make no comment about the state of the garden or the union flags (if I've got the right number). I thought for a moment that you might have been making a comment about someone else!😉

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1 hour ago, nontheistpilgrim said:

OK thanks. I'll make no comment about the state of the garden or the union flags (if I've got the right number). I thought for a moment that you might have been making a comment about someone else!😉

Right 'nuff, the local lads offered me free "Ulster air conditioning", if I didn't fly their colors.  They didn't much care for the ol' stars and stripes I hung, so they didn't.  😎

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20 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Well this begs a few questions from a non-believer standpoint.

 

Why pursue some different morality that is not just as is, how we exist.

Where is that morality found...is it inside us or are we subject to it.

 

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've found that non-believers in general tend to give the following answers to your questions.

 

The morality comes from our evolution.  We have evolved to have empathy towards others.  It's not a different morality because it's there all the time.  We just have to look inside ourselves to find it and use it.  There's no need to invoke any outside agency to account for it.  

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

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On 12/4/2019 at 5:27 PM, WalterP said:

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've found that non-believers in general tend to give the following answers to your questions.

 

The morality comes from our evolution.  We have evolved to have empathy towards others.  It's not a different morality because it's there all the time.  We just have to look inside ourselves to find it and use it.  There's no need to invoke any outside agency to account for it.  

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

Endgarcito, once this sets in it's very difficult to go back to wondering in amazement as to where morality comes from. Or where babies come from, for the same reason.

 

Babies don't drop down from a stork, nor does morality drop down from a supernatural entity up and away, beyond the observable universe. It's obvious and apparent. It's well explained and not very mysterious. And yet, still today, we find people racking their brains over questions like how morality can exist unless a supernatural, all good god exists. But then again we find people who think the world is flat. So there you have it. 

 

Bottom line: 

 

1) Spherical earth.

2) Sexual reproduction.

3) Social evolution.

 

Bada bing, bada bang, mystery solved!!!

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